A Question on Satan

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IamCarl

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Hello my friends. I hope you are all having a fabulous day on this our Father’s beautiful earth. If not, rejoice in the knowledge that the Lord disciplines the ones he loves (Heb 12:6)! I see many knowledgable people on this forum who have sincere faith in the Lord Almighty and His Son Christ Jesus. I am joyful to be here today to ask some questions about a supernatural devil. Friends of mine have shown me how they see things, and I must say I do not find any scriptural references that fully supports the idea. Even logically it does not make much sense to me. Perhaps some of you can enlighten me.

If we all go to heaven, but angels can sin and rebel against the Father, then who would want to go to Heaven? The angels could rebel at any time and kill us all. And if they couldn’t kill us and we would be immortal, we would still be in danger of sinning ourselves and be cast out of Heaven like Lucifer, right? If that’s the case, then why did God prevent Adam and Eve from eating the Tree of Life and being immortal like the angels (Gen 3:22-24)? Didn’t he stop them so that their sins would be restrained in death?

Can the Lord Almighty not have peace even in his own house? I thought the Lord makes peace (Job 25:2).

If there was a great fallen angel, then why did God not destroy him? “Equality with God [is not] a thing to be grasped, (Phil 2:6)” even for Christ Jesus, the Son of God. So the fallen angel could not have been even close to equal to the Father, right? I have heard once that God did not go against his own word when he made angels immortal, but if that is the case, Satan will be destroyed at the end of times. So why does God not destroy him in the first days and not the last days to save mankind a lot of trouble? It surely was not to indirectly have Satan tempt us to do evil because God does not tempt any one (Jam 1:13).

And if we are to be made like angels (Mark 12:25), then what is the point if we can still sin? Did our struggle here only give us a chance to struggle in the afterlife? I know that Christ himself “took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham (Heb 2:16),” that is a sinful nature and as such was in all ways tempted as we are (Heb 2:18; 4:15) but did not sin. It would seem then the nature of angels cannot be like man’s and cannot transgress the Father and that is why Christ was put above the angels (Heb 1:4,6).

I was also reading Isaiah 14 when it talks about Lucifer in one verse. It seems to me that this is a “taunt against the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4).” From Daniel, we know that Nebuchadnezzar had precisely the attitude that he was a god. He was cast down for seven years to be like an animal until he recognized that the Lord Almighty ruled through nations. I fail to see how this is talking about Satan.

Another chapter, Revelations 12 is also used to support this, but the Red Dragon is a symbol of “what is and what is to take place hereafter (Rev 1:19)” or in other words, the future from the time of John in Patmos. To say that this was a past event seems like a contradiction.

Thank you my friends for reading. Like I said, it just does not seem that God would allow such an evil and vile force in the creation. We have enough trouble as it is obeying our Father let alone being tempted by a supernatural devil. I know all of you are well versed and so much more knowledgable of Scripture than I am. I hope you all can answer my questions and concerns. My heart is fervently searching for Truth always. Thank you so much!
  • Carl
 
Angels cannot sin, they are not temporal agencies. They made their choice at their creation and, without time, cannot change it.

The ‘Angels’ that fell, were never in heaven. They were created, made their choice, and were excluded for all time.

Heaven is safe, have no fear.
 
What Evan said. Just to add a bit:

1)Being purely spiritual, the Angels immediately and freely intuited for or against God. Our nature, being both material and spiritual, does not comprehend God in one fell-swoop, so to speak, but comes to Him in a response of faith, hope and charity as we grow in our understanding of His Self-revelation as given through the Son.
  1. Mark 12:25 is merely making the point that there is no marriage in heaven (just like the angels don’t marry, neither will humans in Heaven); it is not not making a case regarding our nature which, unlike the angels, is - and remains - both material and spiritual (why our bodies will be joined to us wherever our end will bring us).
  2. Those who enjoy the Beatific Vision (Heaven) can no longer sin; those in Hell cannot reform.
 
Evan said:
Angels cannot sin, they are not temporal agencies. They made their choice at their creation and, without time, cannot change it.

The ‘Angels’ that fell, were never in heaven. They were created, made their choice, and were excluded for all time.

Heaven is safe, have no fear.
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Wow. That is interesting. I had the same idea that there existed a different dispensation than ours before we were created in which beings were tested found worthy and made into angels. But that is just conjecture and inference on my part. It does not specifically say it in Scripture. Where were these angels if they were not in heaven? Why weren’t the ones rejected destroyed like Sodom and Gemmorah?

I was reading about the “angels that sinned” in 2 Peter 2. It seemed to me that these angels were the Levitical priestly leaders Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in Numbers 16 who defied Moses in his being a leader over them. They were “swallowed up by the earth” to be reserved for judgment. At least that is what it looks like to me. What do you think?
 
FCEGM said:
What Evan said. Just to add a bit:

1)Being purely spiritual, the Angels immediately and freely intuited for or against God. Our nature, being both material and spiritual, does not comprehend God in one fell-swoop, so to speak, but comes to Him in a response of faith, hope and charity as we grow in our understanding of His Self-revelation as given through the Son.
  1. Mark 12:25 is merely making the point that there is no marriage in heaven (just like the angels don’t marry, neither will humans in Heaven); it is not not making a case regarding our nature which, unlike the angels, is - and remains - both material and spiritual (why our bodies will be joined to us wherever our end will bring us).
  2. Those who enjoy the Beatific Vision (Heaven) can no longer sin; those in Hell cannot reform.
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I like and thank you for your response FCEGM. Looking at Mark 12:25, it does seem like it is only referring to marriage, but what about Luke 20:36? “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Doesn’t that say that we will be like the angels?

I do not know if our physical body will be united in the end with the spiritual body we attain. As it says in 1 Cor 15:42-44, “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” From this it seems we have a natural body now which dies and then we are raised and given a spiritual body later because it says “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption (v. 50)” and it says “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (v. 51).” I think the Scriptures say that we do not yet have that spiritual body equal to the angels but will attain it after ressurection.

Thank you so much for your reply!
  • Carl
 
We know the Bible teaches that there is a god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4). You see, Satan came and lied to Adam. Adam committed high treason and sold out to Satan.

God cannot legally and justly move in and take away dominion from the devil. The devil has dominion here. He has a legal right because he has Adam’s lease. And God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.
Peace, Golfjack
 
IamCarl said:
I like and thank you for your response FCEGM. Looking at Mark 12:25, it does seem like it is only referring to marriage, but what about Luke 20:36? “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Doesn’t that say that we will be like the angels?
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Only in the sense of having entered eternal life (like the angels). Human beings remain such in heaven.
I do not know if our physical body will be united in the end with the spiritual body we attain. As it says in 1 Cor 15:42-44, “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” From this it seems we have a natural body now which dies and then we are raised and given a spiritual body later because it says “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption (v. 50)” and it says “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (v. 51).” I think the Scriptures say that we do not yet have that spiritual body equal to the angels but will attain it after ressurection.
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Because of and like the Lord Jesus, our bodies will be raised from the dust and glorified. Jesus has a real body, but a glorified One. The angels, otoh, being creatures only of spirit have no body - either glorified or not; never have, never did.

A book that might interest you:

amazon.com/Everything-Wanted-Heaven-Dreamed-Asking/dp/0898702976
 
FCEGM said:
Carl, you might find this article helpful regarding the biblical and theological reflections on the angels, both good and evil:

newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

BTW, Welcome to CAF. 🙂
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Thank you so much for this link! I was reading it and caught something that I am not sure is accurate. It says “you have made him a little less than angels” (Psalm 8:5), the author believing that it is referring to man in general, but really it seems to be addressing the “son of man” (v. 4), which is Christ. We know this because this is exactly what it says in Heb 2:7,9. It is only a minor error on the part of the author though.

As to the cherubim, I love Ezekiel 1 and it points directly to Revelations 4 in the description of the four creatures that surrounded the Lord. The man is Christ’s humanity, the eagle is Christ’s divinity, the ox is Christ’s servility, and the lion is Christ’s royalty. It is just the same as the four Gospel accounts.

This is definitely a well informed man who writes this article. I agree with much of what he says about the angels. But unfortunately he still did not answer any of my questions about “evil angels” and used books from the Apocrypha and dogmatic lectures. I admit to you that I am not a Catholic. Obviously 🙂 So I do not put much stock in these writings. He also admits that there is nothing in the OT that really relates to the ideas concerning Satan. He concedes that it is a “progressive” thought.

He sees the serpent as Satan and I see the serpent as exactly as it says (a serpent) who had the power of speech much like the donkey who spoke to Balaam (Num 22:28). Just as the Lord gives donkeys the ability to speak, so can He give to snakes. And the curse against the serpent was to crawl on its belly. A snake does that, but does Satan?

I still am unsure that this evil force exists in the Universe.
 
golfjack said:
We know the Bible teaches that there is a god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4). You see, Satan came and lied to Adam. Adam committed high treason and sold out to Satan.

God cannot legally and justly move in and take away dominion from the devil. The devil has dominion here. He has a legal right because he has Adam’s lease. And God cannot do anything unless somebody down here asks Him.
Code: 
      Peace,  Golfjack
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Certainly there is a God in Heaven. Hallowed be his great and glorious name! He who will be the Holy Ones forever! He is Yahweh Elohim, El Shaddai, Eloa, Abba, our Rock, our Fortress, the Most High, the King of Kings, the God of gods, the God of Peace, Hope, and Love! All things are by Him, through Him, and for Him. If I claim Him not, then the Lord may strike me dead, for I would be as good as dead without Him. May He reveal His light unto me and let not his Gospel and Truth be hid from my eyes.

My dear friend, I do not see your point in Scripture. Where does it say that Satan has a legal right to be here on account of a man? The Holy Father rules all, the Heavens and the Earth doesn’t he? (2 Chron 20:6; Psa 148; Prov 8:13-16; Isa 40:21-28; Isa 66:1; Dan 4:25; Mat 5:35; Act 7:49; Phil 2:9-10; Colos 1:16). Indeed the earth is the Lord’s footstool and He controls the “kingdoms of men.”

Thank you for your reply Golfjack! Unfortunately, my questions remain.
  • Carl
 
FCEGM said:
Only in the sense of having entered eternal life (like the angels). Human beings remain such in heaven.

Because of and like the Lord Jesus, our bodies will be raised from the dust and glorified. Jesus has a real body, but a glorified One. The angels, otoh, being creatures only of spirit have no body - either glorified or not; never have, never did.

A book that might interest you:

amazon.com/Everything-Wanted-Heaven-Dreamed-Asking/dp/0898702976
Click to expand...
But where does it say that the angels never had a body? Didn’t Lot grab two angels and pull them inside his home? Didn’t Jacob wrestle with God manifested in an angel? Even the link you gave before concedes that there is not much said about them. I fail to see how angels do not have a physical body even though it is spiritual. Perhaps we both see spirit differently. I see spirit as a force that drives or moves. What do you see it as?
 
If God is in complete control, why is the world in such a mess?
Peace, Golfjack
 
golfjack said:
If God is in complete control, why is the world in such a mess?
Code: 
         Peace,   Golfjack
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Hello again my friend Golfjack. Indeed this world is very much corrupt, but I think it is of our own making. The Lord only manipulates things as so far as to bring His plans into fruition, this would mean manipulation of nations to coincide with His divine goals. Largely, He leaves us to our own devices (which are mostly evil) and only intercedes when there is a fervent and acceptable prayer.

Although I believe that the Lord can have complete control over all things, He does not seem to enact this power, nor does He force men to do anything. He gives them a choice. He leaves many things to their own free will. They can choose to believe in him or they can choose to not believe. They can choose to do good or they can choose to do evil. We are given this case in Daniel 10:13 when the Prince of Persia Cyrus withstood Gabriel for 3 weeks. Now we know that one angel can kill a hundred thousand men by himself in one night (2 Kin 19:35). So it is a matter of course that Cyrus must have been resisting Gabriel’s direction and Gabriel needed added help to persuade Cyrus. Angels it seems must bend to our free will (see Lot, Jacob, and Moses).

Another thing I just read is that we may have even seen angels unawares (Heb 13:2), meaning they are among us appearing as men, but we do not know they are angels because they must restrain their holy and shining light from blinding and killing us.

It all seems very interesting to me.
 
IamCarl said:
Thank you so much for this link! I was reading it and caught something that I am not sure is accurate. It says “you have made him a little less than angels” (Psalm 8:5), the author believing that it is referring to man in general, but really it seems to be addressing the “son of man” (v. 4), which is Christ. We know this because this is exactly what it says in Heb 2:7,9. It is only a minor error on the part of the author though.
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I’m glad you enjoyed the article, Carl. I don’t think it’s an error, though, to see in Psalm 8 both the Son of Man and man. The first meaning, of course, being the Lord in His incarnation in Humility; but it’s also mankind joined to the One Man Jesus Christ. Mankind - for which He came as a Man - shares in both His humility (through our suffereings and weaknesses) and eventually will share (if we persevere in Faith, Hope and Charity) in the glory of He Who is raised higher than the angels.
This is definitely a well informed man who writes this article. I agree with much of what he says about the angels. But unfortunately he still did not answer any of my questions about “evil angels” and used books from the Apocrypha and dogmatic lectures. I admit to you that I am not a Catholic. Obviously. So I do not put much stock in these writings. He also admits that there is nothing in the OT that really relates to the ideas concerning Satan. He concedes that it is a “progressive” thought.
Click to expand...
I believe the writer means “progressive” in the sense of progressing from lesser knowledge to greater knowledge, i.e., from what is revealed in the Old Testament to what is revealed in the New.
He sees the serpent as Satan and I see the serpent as exactly as it says (a serpent) who had the power of speech much like the donkey who spoke to Balaam (Num 22:28). Just as the Lord gives donkeys the ability to speak, so can He give to snakes. And the curse against the serpent was to crawl on its belly. A snake does that, but does Satan?
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The serpent is a symbol of Satan who is depicted as a snake in Genesis. Remember, the Lord Himself called the Enemy, “He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies,” (John 8:44). “The beginning” is a reference to the events in the Garden.
I still am unsure that this evil force exists in the Universe.
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Well, the Lord says it does - and its not just a “force” but a intellectual being (as all the angels - good or evil - are) who has perverted his gifts to fight against God and to seduce mankind away from Him.

This brings us to the certainty of belief that comes from being a Catholic. One isn’t left unaided and forced to make up all on one’s own what is or isn’t part of God’s Self-Revelation in Christ. 🙂
 
IamCarl said:
But where does it say that the angels never had a body? Didn’t Lot grab two angels and pull them inside his home? Didn’t Jacob wrestle with God manifested in an angel? Even the link you gave before concedes that there is not much said about them. I fail to see how angels do not have a physical body even though it is spiritual. Perhaps we both see spirit differently. I see spirit as a force that drives or moves. What do you see it as?
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Yes, we do see it differently since you see it as a “force”, while I - with the Church - know “spirit” as (when speaking of God or the angels) signifying a living, intelligent, incorporeal being. God Who is THE Spirit, is the Supreme and only necessary Spirit. If He were simply a “force” then He would not have created or maintained a relationship with man through the eons of time. The same with the angels He has created - but to an infinitely lesser degree; they, have a relationship to God - a “personal” one through their intellectual knowledge of Him which He has given them (speaking here of the good angels). Some of them at God’s command assist man in his pilgrimage to God, entering into a personal relationship with their charges, though we in our ignorance are little aware how much protection and guidance they give us.

Satan and the other fallen angels also have a spirit of intellect; their’s, though, is - as I said previously - a perverted intellect used in an eternal rage against God for their own choice against Him (primary use) and used to tempt men against their only Good.

Regarding the anthropomorphic images utilized in Scripture; they are just that: images employed to describe the indescribable. God has on occasion, though, let His angels be seen by man in the form of man for God’s purposes at a given time. This does not mean that this is their true form. Angels no more have a human form than God Who is THE Spirit does.

Some articles you may enjoy on the topic:

catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activities/view.cfm?id=1157&repos=3&subrepos=1&searchid=485514

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5845&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=485514

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3068&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=485514

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5848&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=485514

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3070&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=485514
 
Are the Nephilim in Genesis 6: 1-4, fallen or evil angels?

Also, there is a reference to Satan in Zechariah chapter 3 as well as Job.
 
JAGCath28 said:
Are the Nephilim in Genesis 6: 1-4, fallen or evil angels?
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Probably not, JAG. The Dictionary of the Bible by Fr. McKenzie says of this that it is “. . .most probable that this is a fragment of an ancient myth incorporated by the author as a prelude to the story of the deluge; it is similar to the Greek myth of the Titans. The pre-Israelite inhabitants of Canaan are elsewhere identified with the Nephilim (Num. 13:33 and other gigantic beings (cf. ANAKIM: REPHAIM).”

The Jerome Biblical Commentary has this to say: “The lack of any narrative connection with the preceeding accounts show that this ancient legend has been adapted only in a most general way to the theology of prehistory. Details cannot be pressed. The inspired author’s contribution. . .stresses the growing estrangement of man from God. Whatever the precise meaning of the primite story (a common mythological theme), it is unlikely that the author intended any special meaning. . .”
 
IamCarl said:
My dear friend, I do not see your point in Scripture. Where does it say that Satan has a legal right to be here on account of a man? The Holy Father rules all, the Heavens and the Earth doesn’t he? (2 Chron 20:6; Psa 148; Prov 8:13-16; Isa 40:21-28; Isa 66:1; Dan 4:25; Mat 5:35; Act 7:49; Phil 2:9-10; Colos 1:16). Indeed the earth is the Lord’s footstool and He controls the “kingdoms of men.”
  • Carl
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GJ is parroting a heretical teaching found among ‘word of faith’ teachers like Ken Copeland and others. There is no Biblical or historical basis for it.
 
JAS, Try studying the Book of Beginnings if you do not understand what WOF is teaching.
Peace, Golfjack
 
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