A Question on Validity of Ordinations

  • Thread starter Thread starter mosher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mosher

Guest
Whithout having looked at a Pontifical in a while I an curious as to why some believe and are saying that the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (Ordination) is not valid. I am aware that there were some changes made in the new rite in the Consecratory prayer but what is the specific problem that is being raised by these persons?
 
40.png
mosher:
Whithout having looked at a Pontifical in a while I an curious as to why some believe and are saying that the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (Ordination) is not valid. I am aware that there were some changes made in the new rite in the Consecratory prayer but what is the specific problem that is being raised by these persons?
You may be thinking of something you can find “treated” at
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/ by one of the Dimond brothers.
 
Here a a few gems from the web site of the most holy family monastery on the subject:

“For it is a priest’s duty to offer sacrifice, to bless, to lead, to preach and to baptize.” – ABOLISHED

“That Thou wouldst recall all who have wandered from the unity of the Church, and lead all believers to the light of the Gospel.” – ABOLISHED

“Theirs be the task to change with blessing undefiled, for the service of thy people, bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Thy Son.” – ABOLISHED

“Be pleased, Lord, to consecrate and sanctify these hands by this anointing, and our blessing. That whatsoever they bless may be blessed, and whatsoever they consecrate may be consecrated and sanctified in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.” – ABOLISHED

“Receive the power to offer sacrifice to God, and to celebrate Mass, both for the living and the dead, in the name of the Lord.” – ABOLISHED

“the new priests then promise obedience to their bishop who ‘charges’ them to bear in mind that offering Holy Mass is not free from risk and that they should learn everything necessary from diligent priests before undertaking so fearful a responsibility.” – ABOLISHED

“The blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, come down upon you, and make you blessed in the priestly Order, enabling you to offer propitiatory sacrifices for the sins of the people to Almighty God.” – ABOLISHED

Even the heretic Michael Davies was forced to admit:

“As the previous section made clear, every prayer in the traditional rite [of Ordination] which stated specifically the essential role of a priest as a man ordained to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the living and dead has been removed [from the New Rite of Paul VI]. In most cases these were the precise prayers removed by the Protestant reformers, or if not precisely the same there are clear parallels.” (Michael Davies, The Order of Melchisedech, p. 83)

“…there is not one mandatory prayer in the new rite of ordination itself which makes clear that the essence of the Catholic priesthood is the conferral of the powers to offer the sacrifice of the Mass and to absolve men of their sins, and that the sacrament imparts a character which differentiates a priest not simply in degree but in essence from a layman… There is not a word in it that is incompatible with Protestant belief.” (Michael Davies, The Order of Melchisedech, p. xix)

It is totally obvious from these facts that there is no intention in the New Rite of Ordaining a true sacrificing Priest. Every single mandatory reference to the true sacrificing priesthood was deliberately removed, just like in the Anglican Rite – which was declared invalid for that very reason by Pope Leo XIII. Thus, the following words declared by Pope Leo XIII apply exactly to the New Rite of Paul VI.

Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, Sept. 13, 1896: “For this reason in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the sacerdotium [sacrificing priesthood], but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things, which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed

Interesting reading, and I guess in a strange way, explains why some feel that ordinations done since 1968 aren’t valid. I don’t really see it myself, but the whole website of the most holy family is full of this stuff. :confused:
 
I like the old wording better but i dont think that invalidates the sacrament. Id assume that the minimum needed for a vailid ordination is for the bishop to anoint the man, lay hands on him, and charge him with the duty and permission to sacrifice and forgive sin. The exact wording shouldnt affect validity. much like the crucial part of the concecration is the matter and saying “this is my body/blood” sure anything outside the normal form is wildly illicit and a horrible thing to do, but the sacrament is still confected.
 
Dear Dcn John,

Might it not be dangerous to lead someone to a site that is run by an association of people who aggressively attack the Magisterium? Perhaps a more suitable reference (one devoid of venomous attacks on the the three previous popes) would be prudent next time a question arises over the validity of the priesthood of a good many Catholic priests who were ordained in the way sanctioned by the Church.

Here is my take, for what its worth…

The problem with the new rite of ordination that the “kind gentlemen” from "Most Holy Family Monastary " in NY point to is the removal of the words “so that” (see below).

The rite given by Pope Pius XII:
"Grant, we beseech You, Almighty Father, to these Your servants, the dignity of the Priesthood; renew the spirit of holiness within them, so that they may hold from You, O God, the office of the second rank in Your service and by the example of their behavior afford a pattern of holy living.”

The rite given by Pope Paul VI:
“Grant, we beseech You, Almighty Father, to these Your servants, the dignity of the Priesthood; renew within them the spirit of holiness. May they hold from You, the office of the second rank in Your service and by the example of their behavior afford a pattern of holy living.”

The “kind gentlemen” assert that the validity of the new rite is questionable at best; since, according to them, the removal of “so that” presupposes that the ordination has already taken place and that there is no clear proclamation of sacramental conferrence. This isn’t so.

“May” is not in past tense. It is in the present tense. That means that the holding of the office of the second rank is reserved until God’s action is performed, which happens at that time (i.e. in the present). The ordination is not presupposed to have been conferred prior to God’s acting, it is supposed that in God’s acting the ordination is conferred. In other words (aye, and there’s the whole argument isn’t it), “may” says the same thing as “so that”, except that it is in the present, not the future. In this light it may be that the new rite is even more clear than the old rite.

In short… is it valid? The answer is yes.

God bless,

Agricola

PS
I hope that everyone who reads this thread will take the time to pray for those involved with the “Most Holy Family Monastary”.
 
Agricola, you may have a point and are kind to mention it, but I was placing some trust in the fidelity and intelligence of the OP and other forum participants. Frankly, I could not think of anyone else who would attack the validity of ordinations and yet remain devoid of such venom. Still, I think your caution is a wise one, and if I need to make such a reference, I will add a charitable caution. However, it would be a stretch for me to speak of them as “kind gentlemen.”

I certainly didn’t intend to refute the content of that site (which would have necessitated citing its content) since in case we missed it, canon 841 does not allot the definition of a sacrament or its requirements for validity to the Dimond brothers:

Since the sacraments are the same for the whole Church and pertain to the divine deposit, it is only for the supreme authority of the Church alone to approve or define the requirements for their validity; it is for the same or another competent authority according to the norm of can. 838 §§3 and 4 to decide what pertains to their licit celebration, administration and reception and to the order to be observed in their celebration.
 
I like the old wording better but i dont think that invalidates the sacrament. Id assume that the minimum needed for a vailid ordination is for the bishop to anoint the man, lay hands on him, and charge him with the duty and permission to sacrifice and forgive sin. The exact wording shouldnt affect validity. much like the crucial part of the concecration is the matter and saying “this is my body/blood” sure anything outside the normal form is wildly illicit and a horrible thing to do, but the sacrament is still confected.
The Rite of Ordination is a “Rite”; and, the Consecration is a part of the “Rite” of the Mass…

The purpose of a “rite”, at least as I understand it, is to harness the spiitual power of the participants and enable it to be directed the obtaining of some supenatural effect …

For a rite to be efficacious, every aspect of it has to be formed in a certain way, and, choreography, timing, the positioning and function of the participants, and the positioning and function of the instruments to be used in the rite, etc., etc., are of the utmost importance, if that rite is to have the desired effect.

Now, the words in rites, I understand, are vocal “formulae”, which are especially chosen and especially positioned in the rite to, as well as teach by their content, cause a particular resonant vibration, which itself is meant to aid the particpants to achieve focus and harmony in the task of their spiritual quest.

Therefore, the altering of the rite, in its words, in leaving parts out, in the position and function of the participants, in the position and function of the instruments, etc., etc., is to render the rite in question “disharmonious”, and thus inefficacious … its “power” is taken away … or, at the very least, diminished …

This, I understand to be true for all rites …

The protestants believed that, for Catholics to believe that, at each Mass, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ was repeated, and that the bread and wine were transsubstantiated, becoming the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, was itself sacrelige, and even pagan.

They, in their “protest”, said that the Communion should be a “celebratory meal”, and that the very idea of Sacrifice was inappropriate.

The New Order Rite of Ordination removes any mention, I understand (at least in any substantial way) the very mention of sacrifice, and that is only one of the changes to the rite…

Changes to any rite at best diminishes its efficaciouisness …

In the Gospel, and repeated infallibly by more than one Pope, I understand, at the Last Supper, Jesus Christ says: the chalice of he New and eternal testament, the mystery of fait, which shall be shed for you and for many, unto the remission of sins.

Now, as I understand it, the point of concern is that (among many other changes to the “traditional Mass” the Novus Ordo Missae, in its concecratioin, has Jesus say: the cup of the new and everlasting covenant, which shall be shed for you and for all men, so that sins may be forgiven.

[note that the very, very important “Mystery of Faith” is omitted, that “for you and for all men” is not the same as “for you and for many”, and that “unto the remissioni of sins” has a completely different meanting to “so that sins may be forgiven”.]

These are major changes to these rites, and, as major changes, they have, it is argued, major disefficacioius effects on the said rites, or completely (particularly when looked at in conjunction with all the other such “changes” -which successive Popes have specifically warned against-) neutralise them.

The argument of the Dimond brothers, as I understand it, is that this rendering the one true avenue to God (as, I understand, Catholics believe the Roman Catholic Church) a fog of disiformation and and impotence, and makes for a situation, as prophesied, where, having disempowered the Faithful through the nullifying the Holy Mass, Satan himself -in the form of the Antichrist/antichurch- sits in the Chair of Peter.

So, the words, at least by these acocunts, are more than important …

And, finally, right from its inception, even when the New Mass was, as a novelty to one who, as a child, had, sometimes forcedly, attended many “Traditional Masses”, was exciting, I always felt very uncomfortable at the allowing lay people to handle the Holy Host (in fact, I have never received the Holy Eucharist from a lay person) … but, then again, if the “bread” of the New Mass (I understand the strict rules governing its making have been relaxed by the New Order…) is known no longer to be the Body of Jesus Christ, then it does not require the specially annointed hands of a worthily ordained priest …

(I don’t know whether it is just me, but I remember the “Mass in Latin”, and the whole feel of the Sacrament had infinitely more reverence than the somewhat irrelverent disinterest I often have seen portrayed in the “celebration” that is the New Order mass … Does anybody else feel this way?)

Please be assured that, in the above, I offer no offence, but sincere enquiry, and that nothing I say should be taken as “disrespectful” to anyone in any way, rather, if suspected, just a facet of my ineptness in expressing myself properly …

Best wishes and God Bless

William
 
I am aware that there were some changes made in the new rite in the Consecratory prayer but what is the specific problem that is being raised by these persons?
You would need to ask them.
 
If the Church says a rite of ordination is valid, it’s valid.

Period.
 
If the Church says a rite of ordination is valid, it’s valid.

Period.
Oh dear … ,

Is it not the duty of every Catholic to, at least to the best of his ability, understand his/her religion, so as to be better able to “confess” it (as Saint Paul directed), and to defend it agianst heretics and non-believers.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
Romans 10:11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
Romans 10:13 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!”
Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Further, if one does not understand, both spiritually and mentally, the reasoning behind one’s “worshipping”, does one really worship?

The Church, incidentally, in the Scripture (Revelation) also advises Catholics that they should be wary, and that their religioin will be hi-jacked by the wily machinations of the Antichrist …

All the more reason to, as well as faith, have reason …

God Bless

William
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top