A Question Prompted By Miki's Appearance on the Dividing Line

[sandusky]

Scylla:

Ok so your unbelief by your own admission is based on opinion. I believe based upon fact which I conform my life to.

You are conforming your life to a “fact” that some who are long in the grave said there is a purgatory.

The point of salvation is to conform you to the image of Christ.

Scylla:

Do you have an explanation of your purification.

For the third time, Heb 1:3.

Scylla:

Are you purified regardless of your future sins and is repentance necessary?

My sins were forgiven in eternity, by the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. In time, I have repented and believed that He has paid the penalty for my sins, and at the moment I believed, I received the forgiveness of all my sins, which forgiveness has been eternally fixed in the mind of the Father concerning me.

 

[scylla]

This thread is going off the original topic, we should start a new one taking the current direction and address it, I am curious as what I have understood is that with faith the believer is pure, since Jesus is the purifier.

If I have misunderstood the current reformed Baptist position then feel free to correct me.

Whether or not I have phrased it correctly we should move this to another thread as the original subject is ECF’s on Purgatory. But this new line is interesting to me.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[sandusky]

MrS:

And the church would disagree with you.

Not with me.

MrS:

While Catholics should make it clear that our belief is in Jesus Christ, not in what we could ever do on our own, we also believe that it is His plan that we cooperate with Him…

Can’t do anything, but have to cooperate; what do you mean?

MrS:

We must pick up our cross and follow Him… but what for if He does it all?

Isn’t the fact that He said to do so enough?

MrS:

What if we murder after “being saved”. Will Christ also pay the penalty for that… which is eternal damnation for the unrepentant? Or is there a temporal punishment which is our responsibility.

What do the words “new creation” mean to you, MrS? That you can now commit murder? The forgiveness of my sins is eternally fixed, and has been appropriated in time.

MrS:

Finally, do you feel totally clean, totally pure at this moment, that you could enter heaven? (nothing unpure will enter heaven.)

That is correct, nothing unclean will enter heaven.

MrS:

If so, you are not, for you have commited the sin of presumption.

Believing what God has said is the sin of presumption?

MrS:

If you are not, be grateful for the Mercy of God to allow you to enter heaven cleaned by the fires of purgation.

I will enter heaven having been cleansed by the blood of Christ, not by the fires of purgation.

 

[scylla]

So is what I said earlier correct then about the current Baptist reformed position of purification.
" with faith the believer is pure, since Jesus is the purifier."

You are then perfect right now is that what you are saying?

or does God ignore your imperfection and allow you to enter Heaven based upon Jesus’s

In Christ
Scylla

 

[PhilVaz]

Kuria << and if Augustine is the lynchpin in the doctrine of Purgatory, why doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church teach predestination as Augustine did? >>

I said St. Augustine was more explicit on purgatory than the earlier Fathers. Now what about St. Augustine’s teaching on predestination does the Catholic Church reject? Let’s get some St. Augustine on the table concerning salvation and justification:

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Christ’s saints imitate Him in order to pursue JUSTICE [Justification]. Whence also the same Apostle says: “Be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ” [1 Cor 11:1]. But besides this imitation, His GRACE also works WITHIN us our illumination and JUSTIFICATION, by that work of which His same preacher says: “Neither is he that plants anything, nor he that waters, but He that gives the increase, God” [1 Cor 3:7]…For by this GRACE baptized INFANTS too are ingrafted into His body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive, besides offering Himself as an example of RIGHTEOUSNESS for those who would imitate Him, gives also the most hidden GRACE of His Spirit to believers, GRACE which He secretly INFUSES EVEN INTO INFANTS. (Forgiveness of Sins 1:9:10)

You are the only authorities who suppose that JUSTIFICATION is conferred by the remission alone of sins. Certainly God JUSTIFIES the impious man not only by remitting the evil deeds which that man does, but ALSO by granting LOVE, so that the man may turn away from evil and may DO GOOD THROUGH the Holy Spirit. (Against Julian 2:165)

Let no one say to himself: “If [justification] is from faith, how is it freely given [Rom 5:1; 3:24] : If faith MERITS it, why is it not rather paid than given?” Let the faithful man not say such a thing; for, if he says: “I have faith, therefore I merit justification,” he will be answered: “What have you that you did not receive” [1 Cor 4:7]? If therefore, faith entreats and receives JUSTIFICATION, according as God has apportioned to each in the measure of his faith [Rom 12:3], nothing of human merit PRECEDES the grace of God, but grace itself MERITS INCREASE, and the increase MERITS PERFECTION, with the will ACCOMPANYING but not leading, following ALONG but not going in advance. (Letters 186:3:7,10)

What MERIT, then, does a man have BEFORE grace, by which he might RECEIVE grace, when our EVERY good merit is produced in us ONLY by grace, and, when God, crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but His own GIFTS to us? (Letters 194:5:19)

What is grace? Something given -gratis-. What is given -gratis-? That which is bestowed rather than paid as owed. If it is owed, it is wages paid, not a gift graciously given. If it was truly owed, you have been good; but if, as is the case, you have been evil, but YOU DID BELIEVE IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE IMPIOUS * – and what is MEANT BY “He justifies the impious?” That HE MAKES THE IMPIOUS PIOUS – think what was rightly threatened you by the law, and what you have obtained by grace! But since you have gotten that grace of faith, you shall be just by faith; for the just man lives by faith [Rom 1:17; Hab 2:4]. And by LIVING FAITH you shall DESERVE WELL of God; and when you shall have deserved well of God by LIVING by faith, as REWARD you shall receive immortality and ETERNAL LIFE. AND THAT IS GRACE. Because of what MERIT, then, do you receive ETERNAL LIFE? BECAUSE OF GRACE. (Homilies on the Gospel of John 3:9)

=====

Evangelical scholar Alister McGrath: “However, it will be clear that the medieval period was astonishingly FAITHFUL to the teaching of Augustine on the question of the nature of justification, WHERE THE REFORMERS DEPARTED FROM IT…A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED, BEFORE. The Reformation understanding of the NATURE of justification – as opposed to its mode – must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological NOVUM.” ( from IUSTITIA DEI: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification [Cambridge Univ Press, 1986], Volume 1, Chapter 5, Section 19 )

MORE HERE

What about the above is in any way Reformed or Baptist? Thank you. James White Mega-Rebuttal #3128913286239 Complete. Over and Out.

Phil P*

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What do the words “new creation” mean to you, MrS? That you can now commit murder?

The forgiveness of my sins is eternally fixed, and has been appropriated in time.

In otherwords if you happen to commit a murder or two down the road its sort of pre-forgiven?

 

[nasb]

nasb << PhilVaz, if Purgatory is a “Apostolic Tradition”, then why doesn’t the Eastern Orthodox accept this Dogma in the way the Roman Catholic Church understands and defines it. >>

Good question! I assume this is James White! Welcome James! The NASB gave you away.

Sorry, Philvaz. This is not James White. Dr. White could come with much more reply, comment than I could. Nice try

 

[PhilVaz]

nasb << Dr. White could come with much more reply, comment than I could. Nice try >>

Ah ha, well maybe his account name is NA27 instead.

But I used White’s and Webster’s source (The Birth of Purgatory), so not sure what reply he could make other than “all those Fathers are wrong.” The concept of purification after death and prayers for the dead is clear in the Fathers of the early Church, east and west, accepted by Catholics and Orthodox.

The distinction between Catholics and Orthodox is simply in the name “Purgatory” and the nature of the “purgatorial fire.” The Catholic doctrine was defined at later Councils of Florence and Trent which explains why the Orthodox (which accept only the first Seven Ecumenical Councils up to Nicaea II in 787 AD) don’t accept all the Catholic “nuances” of the doctrine. From the CCC Catechism:

1. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Peter 1:7].

Phil P

 

[John_Henry]

I disagree.

The way I see It is HE DID.

So there is no question as to whether or not the believer is pure; HE IS.

It is a matter of faith.

Again, we all say HE DID. That you are pure is laudable. I, however, fully trusting in the sacrifice of Christ for my salvation, am not. I can attest to all sorts of sinful inclinations (and sins to boot!) inside of me. The question then becomes how to reconcile the FACT that “he did” with the FACT that much impurity still is present within me.

 

[PhilVaz]

Can’t forget Dave Armstrong’s page

Purgatory Apologetics

Comments from the New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), article on “purgatory”:

“The Fathers in general are clear in their affirmation of the existence of purgatory. This is not to deny that some time was needed to formulate a clear and definitive idea of the purification to take place in the other world, for varying eschatological views prevented in the early centuries a uniform presentation of its nature. The witness of the Fathers to the fact of such purification after death, therefore, is beyond doubt; their explanation of the purifying process has as much validity as the reasons advanced by each one. One thing is certain: the primitive Church never accepted the belief that in each and every instance the eternal beatitude of the just began immediately after death…In addition, prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice. There can be no doubt, then, that the widespread belief of the early Church, as shown by many of the Fathers (see Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Ephraem, Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, Caesarius of Arles, and Gregory the Great…) and as evidenced by the liturgy, demanded the existence of a state after death in which the souls of the just would be fully purified from any remains of sin before entering heaven.” (NCE, volume 11, page 1035-6)

St. Augustine of Hippo

“The man who has cultivated that remote land [Gen 3:17] and who has gotten his bread by his very great labor is able to suffer this labor to the end of this life. After this life, however, it is not necessary that he suffer. But the man who perhaps has not cultivated the land and has allowed it to be overrun with brambles has in this life the curse of his land on all his works, and after this life he will have either purgatorial fire or eternal punishment [habebit vel ignem purgationis vel poenam aeternam].” (De Genesi contra Manich 2:20:30 [c. AD 389])

“‘Lord, rebuke me not in Your indignation, nor correct me in Your anger’ [Psalm 38:1]…In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire…for it is said: ‘He shall be saved, but as if by fire’ [1 Cor 3:15]. And because it is said that he shall be saved, little is thought of that fire. Yet plainly, though we be saved by fire, that fire will be more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life.” (Explanations of the Psalms 37:3 [c. AD 392])

“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment [ante iudicium illud severissimum novissimumque]. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment.” (The City of God 21:13 [c. AD 413-426])

“That there should be some such fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish – through a certain purgatorial fire [per ignem quemdam purgatorium].” (Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love 18:69 [c. AD 421] or NPNF1 III:260)

(see also Sermons 159:1; Sermons 172:2; The City of God 21:24:2; Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love 29:109)

Phil P