A question regarding homosexuality

[RollTide1987]

Can one take the Eucharist without risking his/her immortal soul if they disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

 

[eddie_too]

would the disagreement be about whether or not homosexuality is intrinsically disordered?

or, would the disagreement be about whether or not homosexual acts are objectively, mortally sinful?

or would the disagreement extend to whether or not same-sex marriage is a sacrilege?

or is it something else about homosexuality on which a person might disagree with the church?

more information would be helpful.

 

[RollTide1987]

Let’s answer yes, individually, to each one of those questions (he hasn’t gotten back to me yet) and tell me what such an answer would do to a person’s soul if they took the Eucharist.

 

[eddie_too]

these are questions that are best left to professional, catholic, moral theologians.

I recommend that anyone who disagrees with the teachings of Jesus Christ not pretend to be in communion with Him. I believe pretending to be one with Jesus when actually you reject His teachings does endanger one’s soul.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Christians can disagree about the nature of same sex attraction, e.g. whether people are born homosexual. Christians really cannot validly disagree with Christ, however, about the the sinfulness of same sex sexual activity.

 

[dshix]

If a person disagrees with the teaching of the Church, they disagree with the teaching of Christ, who is God. If they disagree with God, they have no business entering into such an intimate union with Him through Holy Communion.

If a person disagrees with the teaching of the Church because they do not believe that is expresses the will of God, then they are also disbelieving Christ Himself, who is God, and who stated that the Catholic Church is His Church. If they disbelieve God, they have no business entering into such an intimate union with Him through Holy Communion.

 

[DavidFilmer]

If you want to believe the teaching of the Church (any teaching – homosexuality is not different than anything else) but find yourself unable then you do not sin and have no impediment to Eucharist. You can disbelieve any Church teaching and not sin provided you realize you are wrong and the Church is right (even if you cannot understand how that could be) and you make a sincere ongoing effort to reconcile you disbelief.

Willfully disbelieving any Church teaching can be sinful. Sin does not keep us from receiving Eucharist.

Given sufficient knowledge and intent, disbelief could be mortally sinful. That is an impediment to Eucharist.

If your disbelief is willful then nobody here can tell you if it’s mortally sinful. All sin requires knowledge and consent. The difference between venial sin and mortal sin is one of degrees - mortal sin requires FULL knowledge and COMPLETE consent.

Nobody can know the extent of someone else’s knowledge and consent.

 

[brittrossiter]

The Church’s teaching on this subject can be tough, but it is clear.

Even if a disagreement with a particular teaching of the Church may not in particular cases be a serious sin in and of itself, it could indicate latent pride–i.e., thinking that one knows better than the Church. This is its own problem, and could be just as deadly: “An angel fell from Heaven without any other passion [sin] except pride.” (St. John Climacus, Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 23).

 

[Rau]

would the disagreement be about whether or not homosexuality is intrinsically disordered?

or, would the disagreement be about whether or not homosexual acts are objectively, mortally sinful?

or would the disagreement extend to whether or not same-sex marriage is a sacrilege?

or is it something else about homosexuality on which a person might disagree with the church?

more information would be helpful.

If by homosexuality, you mean the inclination to be attracted to persons of the same sex, such is not “intrinsically disordered”. Such attraction, while disordered, is not sinful and thus is not “intrinsically disordered”.

Sexual acts outside of marriage - fornication, same sex sexual acts, etc. are intrinsically disordered, meaning they are sinful regardless of the reason or circumstance in which they are chosen. That is, they are always wrong to choose.

 

[steve_b]

#2

Re: same sex marriage, there is no such thing in God’s eyes.
Re: Homosexual sex acts. They are mortal sins just as masturbation, fornication, and adultery are mortal sins for heterosexuals

and those who are in mortal sin can’t receive the Eucharist.

Re: disagreement with the Church on her teaching (doctrines)

we need to define terms
**
2089 ***Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

How does the Church rule on these and their consequences ?
Heresy, Schism and Apostasy

 

[Frankenfurter]

Can one take the Eucharist without risking his/her immortal soul if they disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

The nature of your question implies that it might be a mortal sin to simply have doubts or disagree about a church teaching. I am not aware of any thing in church teaching that says anything of the kind. And the catechism is a pretty think book! We are all in fact trying to figure things out, and church teachings are hard, and may take a lifetime to understand. It is NOT a mortal sin to have incomplete understanding of church teaching. I am confident that when you walk up to get communion, worried about your stance on church teaching, that God is not thinking anything about that and is simply overjoyed to be with you.

Your stance on gays is something that you are working out in your own head. We are all a work in progress. We all need God’s love and we are all sinners.

Stay humble and accept God as a gift.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Let’s answer yes, individually, to each one of those questions (he hasn’t gotten back to me yet) and tell me what such an answer would do to a person’s soul if they took the Eucharist.

I don’t think we can answer yes for him at all.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Re: Homosexual sex acts. They are mortal sins just as masturbation, fornication, and adultery are mortal sins for heterosexuals

Steve, Steve, Steve. C’mon, Steve. These are objectively sinful acts (ie, are contrary to the will of God) but are not somehow automatically mortally sinful. Because there’s no such sin. We both know that sufficient (meaning full and complete) knowledge and consent is required for ANY sin to be mortally culpable.

As long as you keep repeating this error, I will keep correcting you.

I can bring out my awesome Catechism-citing HTML2BBCode Perl program if you like (look, ma, it does footnotes!)

 

[steve_b]

Steve, Steve, Steve. C’mon, Steve. These are objectively sinful acts (ie, are contrary to the will of God) but are not somehow automatically mortally sinful. Because there’s no such sin. We both know that sufficient (meaning full and complete) knowledge and consent is required for ANY sin to be mortally culpable.

All that is necessary is that one knows a particular sin is mortal, then chooses to commit it. That’s it. No mystery. it’s simple
D:

As long as you keep repeating this error, I will keep correcting you.

based on the consequences, once someone knows this, ( minus the mentally retarded of course or someone without free will ) the following are all mortal sins once a person chooses to commit them.

• Reject a factious (αἱρετικὸν )man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• immoraliy,(πόρνος ) is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ), factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers ( )don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Thessalonians 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

 

[thistle]

Steve, Steve, Steve. C’mon, Steve. These are objectively sinful acts (ie, are contrary to the will of God) but are not somehow automatically mortally sinful. Because there’s no such sin. We both know that sufficient (meaning** full** and complete) knowledge and consent is required for ANY sin to be mortally culpable.

As long as you keep repeating this error, I will keep correcting you.

I can bring out my awesome Catechism-citing HTML2BBCode Perl program if you like (look, ma, it does footnotes!)

That is not correct. Full knowledge is simply satisfied by knowing the Church teaches that homosexuality (meaning active not SSA) is a sin of grave matter and just by knowing that it becomes a mortal sin if the person goes ahead and commits the act.

 

[Rau]

That is not correct. Full knowledge is simply satisfied by knowing the Church teaches that homosexuality (meaning active not SSA) is a sin of grave matter and just by knowing that it becomes a mortal sin if the person goes ahead and commits the act.

For whom does awareness of what the Church teaches have this effect? For everyone? Atheists? Practicing Catholics? Baptized Catholics?

 

[thistle]

For whom does awareness of what the Church teaches have this effect? For everyone? Atheists? Practicing Catholics? Baptized Catholics?

I’m talking about Catholics.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

For whom does awareness of what the Church teaches have this effect? For everyone? Atheists? Practicing Catholics? Baptized Catholics?

I think the question that is probably behind this question isn’t a daft one at all.

I would probably put it like this: what role does faith have in this knowing? What level of faith do third-generation semi-catechised and slightly catechised Catholics like me have, that will serve us in practical situations? What do we need to see and hear about in the lives of better-catechised Catholics (say you lived next door to me), to give us more effective faith?

This isn’t a rhetorical question, it is intended to provoke investigation.

 

[DavidFilmer]

That is not correct. Full knowledge is simply satisfied by knowing the Church teaches that homosexuality (meaning active not SSA) is a sin of grave matter

Does the Church teach that?

The Catechism says that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered” or “objectively disordered” (CCC 2357-2358). This is in reference to natural law, not Divine law. In the “In Brief” summary (CCC 2396), the Catechism describes homosexual acts as one of four acts “gravely contrary to chastity” (along with masturbation, fornication, and pornography).

AFAIK, the only sexual act that the Catechism specifically describes as an “intrinsically and gravely disordered action” is masturbation [CCC 2352].

 

[steve_b]

Does the Church teach that?

The Catechism says that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered” or “objectively disordered” (CCC 2357-2358). This is in reference to natural law, **not **Divine law. In the “In Brief” summary (CCC 2396), the Catechism describes homosexual acts as one of four acts “gravely contrary to chastity” (along with masturbation, fornication, and pornography).

Re: natural law not divine law,

they are together

**1955 **The “divine and natural” law shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:

Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.
d:

AFAIK, the only sexual act that the Catechism specifically describes as an “intrinsically and gravely disordered action” is masturbation [CCC 2352].

And 2357 Homosexuality, "grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”

the
disordered