A question regarding Pride (or two!)

[DMC12]

About the landing someone faster in hell, I think he speaks in a not literal way, and he means that the sin of pride has more chances to put you in hell, since pride can bring unrepenance, while the sexual sins after you commit them, you can feel terribly bad and seek confesion. that was mentioned on an article of this same site.

Im not totally sure if those lists are fine, i think sometimes they seem scrupulous, I usually think we should use the ten commandments to see if by doing something we are breaking God’s law, I might be wrong of course.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Kathrin,

They may seem like opposites but, tending to publish, or having a tendency to make known, what you think is good about yourself for the purpose of winning others’ esteem is not the same as simply using you the talents God has given you. In the former your intent is vainglory, seeking the honor, love, praise, and approval of other people. In the latter your intent is based in true humility, being truly as God has created you to be and doing His Will with the talents He has graced you with.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

GLam8833,

I like your additional questions! Thanks.

 

[Morwenna]

Just wanted to share this relevant section from Mere Christianity by CS Lewis:

Now what you want to get clear it that Pride is essentially competitive – is competitive by its very nature – while the other vices are competitive only, so to speak, by accident. Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. We say that people are proud of being rich, or clever, or good-looking, but they are not. They are proud of being richer, or cleverer, or better-looking than others. If someone else became equally rich, or clever, or good-looking there would be nothing to be proud about. It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone. That is why I say that Pride is essentially competitive in a way the other vices are not. The sexual impulse may drive two men into competition if they both want the same girl. But that is only by accident; they might just as likely have wanted two different girls. But a proud man will take your girl from you, not because he wants her, but just to prove to himself that he is a better man than you. Greed may drive men into competition if there is not enough to go round; but the proud man, even when he has got more than he can possibly want, will try to get still more just to assert his power. Nearly all those evils in the world which people put down to greed or selfishness are really far more the result of Pride.

…

If I am a proud man, then as long as there in one man in the whole world more powerful, or richer or cleverer than I, he is my rival and my enemy.

The Christians are right: it is Pride which has been the chief cause of misery in every nation and every family since the world began. Other vices may sometimes bring people together: you may find good fellowship and jokes and friendliness among drunken people or unchaste people. But pride always means enmity—it is enmity. And not only enmity between man and man, but enmity to God.

In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that—and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison—you do not know God at all. As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people: and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.

…

Do not imagine that if you meet a really humble man he will be what most people call ‘humble’ nowadays: he will not be a sort of greasy, smarmy person, who is always telling you that, of course, he is nobody. Probably, all you will think about him is that he seemed a cheerful, intelligent chap who took a real interest in what you said to him. If you do dislike him it will be because you feel a little envious of anyone who seems to enjoy life so easily. He will not be thinking about humility: he will not be thinking about himself at all.

If anyone would like to acquire humility, I can, I think, tell him the first step. The first step is to realise that one is proud. And a biggish step, too. At least, nothing whatever can be done before it. If you think you are not conceited, it means you are very conceited indeed.

The above excerpts are found at this link: fellowshipofthemartyrs.com/articles/60-spiritual-tuneup/191-mere-christianity-chapter-8-qthe-great-sinq-cs-lewis

Lewis was not Catholic, however his theology is generally quite sound and in harmony with Catholic thought.

.

 

[Kathrin]

Kathrin,

They may seem like opposites but, tending to publish, or having a tendency to make known, what you think is good about yourself for the purpose of winning others’ esteem is not the same as simply using you the talents God has given you. In the former your intent is vainglory, seeking the honor, love, praise, and approval of other people. In the latter your intent is based in true humility, being truly as God has created you to be and doing His Will with the talents He has graced you with.

I see what you mean, it is very different, it’s a different attitude Even though they COULD mix of course.

I am still curious what others will say about where they think or have learned it starts to be sinful… sharing successes, being happy when others see that one has done well, posting pictures that have caught us good-looking… I have myself talked to priests and other people who I feel are well-found in the Faith about such things before, but then they were maybe very personal examples we talked about and then I also have been struggling with scrupulosity a lot, and I am a bit cautious to generalize here…

(do others have that fear too? to post something and then maybe I won’t post it correctly or somebody might understand it the wrong way, and these are such delicate very personal issues too…)

 

[glendab]

Hello Kathrin.

I see what you mean, it is very different, it’s a different attitude Even though they COULD mix of course.

I am still curious what others will say about where they think or have learned it starts to be sinful… sharing successes, being happy when others see that one has done well, posting pictures that have caught us good-looking… I have myself talked to priests and other people who I feel are well-found in the Faith about such things before, but then they were maybe very personal examples we talked about and then I also have been struggling with scrupulosity a lot, and I am a bit cautious to generalize here…

(do others have that fear too? to post something and then maybe I won’t post it correctly or somebody might understand it the wrong way, and these are such delicate very personal issues too…)

I thought Mary Ellen’s examination was a winner. I cut and copied it to use.

The good we do can be spoken of and should be if God is the reason so as to encourage others to good works. But if the only reason you do good stuff is so others can see your good works, then it is sinful. It is okay to tell your friends you got an “A” on your test when you expected to flunk and studied hard. They can share your joy. It becomes sinful when we try to make others envious or are trying to bolster broken self esteem by bragging about our successes or belongings so as to influence the way in which others see us.

Sins of the “small” variety are very easy to have. We all have them. Pride tells us we aren’t that bad and minimizes all the “little” sins we commit each day. It also serves to cloak sinful attitudes that are our character defects that keep the sins coming.

You wanted a personal example: how about my smoking. I smoked Camel Filters for years. A pack a day habit. It was a sin. It was habituated sin. As soon as person gets addicted to a substance, and that is why I kept smoking for all those years, they begin to dismiss all the sins around the substance. And there were sins I committed because of my smoking. Until I swallowed my pride and admitted it, I couldn’t possibly hope to be free of it. Pride kept telling me smoking cigarettes wasn’t that bad a thing, that there were worse things I could be doing. I could give you a long list of the sins my smoking caused in my life beginning with the sneaking around with my girlfriends in high school to do so, but the list would be too long. Pride kept me from seeing all the sins it caused and if I did look, it quickly helped me dismiss them like the smoke from a cigarette.

I sincerely hope I’m not offending those who read this who smoke. But I did see the connection between failed attempts at quitting and PRIDE. I needed God’s help to quit. Pride wouldn’t let me ask.

There ya go Kathrin, a living example. I’m sharing the good thing I did, quit smoking, with others and it is really not to brag but to explain the way pride does conspire in our thinking to hinder us from spiritual growth.

Does that help?

Glenda

 

[Bookcat]

So, pride got brought up in my theology class the other day. My professor said pride would land you in hell much faster than sexual sins

For a Christian who is seeking to follow Christ and live his faith - Pride is rather often of the venial sort and does not for that reason “land you in hell”.

Now those who reject God …that can yes land one in hell.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

For a Christian who is seeking to follow Christ and live his faith - Pride is rather often of the venial sort and does not for that reason “land you in hell”.

Now those who reject God …that can yes land one in hell.

I’d be careful with that.

What rises to mortal or not should be between a confessor, God, and the Sinner.

For you to say “rather often” is a potentially dangerous way of looking at the first of the seven capital sins and the one thought to have landed Satan in Hell.

 

[Kathrin]

Hello Kathrin.

I thought Mary Ellen’s examination was a winner. I cut and copied it to use.

The good we do can be spoken of and should be if God is the reason so as to encourage others to good works. But if the only reason you do good stuff is so others can see your good works, then it is sinful. It is okay to tell your friends you got an “A” on your test when you expected to flunk and studied hard. They can share your joy. It becomes sinful when we try to make others envious or are trying to bolster broken self esteem by bragging about our successes or belongings so as to influence the way in which others see us.

Sins of the “small” variety are very easy to have. We all have them. Pride tells us we aren’t that bad and minimizes all the “little” sins we commit each day. It also serves to cloak sinful attitudes that are our character defects that keep the sins coming.

You wanted a personal example: how about my smoking. I smoked Camel Filters for years. A pack a day habit. It was a sin. It was habituated sin. As soon as person gets addicted to a substance, and that is why I kept smoking for all those years, they begin to dismiss all the sins around the substance. And there were sins I committed because of my smoking. Until I swallowed my pride and admitted it, I couldn’t possibly hope to be free of it. Pride kept telling me smoking cigarettes wasn’t that bad a thing, that there were worse things I could be doing. I could give you a long list of the sins my smoking caused in my life beginning with the sneaking around with my girlfriends in high school to do so, but the list would be too long. Pride kept me from seeing all the sins it caused and if I did look, it quickly helped me dismiss them like the smoke from a cigarette.

I sincerely hope I’m not offending those who read this who smoke. But I did see the connection between failed attempts at quitting and PRIDE. I needed God’s help to quit. Pride wouldn’t let me ask.

There ya go Kathrin, a living example. I’m sharing the good thing I did, quit smoking, with others and it is really not to brag but to explain the way pride does conspire in our thinking to hinder us from spiritual growth.

Does that help?

Glenda

That is a different kind of pride again, isn’t it? The pride of thinking “I don’t need God’s help”, the pride of thinking “nobody has the right to tell me what to do and what not to do”…

Now the other kind of pride would be: What if you are “proud of yourself” (in the good sense, I think that exists too?) that you stopped smoking. Would you think it is sinful to tell others about it because you felt it was an achievement?
I think this is a very sensitive area.
(And I humbly admit that I may be wrong in what I say or feel.)
Sensitive because, ont he one hand, I can’ find much wrong in sharing achievements with others. All competitive sports would be sinful otherwise. A child coming home beaming with joy that it has done well on the test - would be sinful.
The example of Facebook I mentioned before - posting a good photos and hoping for “likes” from my friends would be sinful.
Wearing a new piece of clothing or coming back from a vacation enjoying other saying “wow you look good” would be sinful.
Feeling happy when somebody says “wow I didn’t know you are so good at this” would be sinful.
I don’t feel these things are sinful?

Now the sensitive part is… where it CAN become sinful. The smoking example. If an ex-smoker tells his friends he has stopped smoking, something they never thought possible and they arre quite in awe, and the ex-smoker quite enjoys that - I don’t think that is sinful? It may even have a positive infulence on him to keep up the non-smoking…

On the other hand, if he told other smokers then what weak people they are, because they couldn’t do it too, that they are morally worse than he is, and puts them down… THEN I would say that is morally not ok.

Or: A girl gets compliments because she looks good. It makes her happy. I don’t think that is sinful?
But if she then puts down another girl, who maybe wans’t blessed with an aerobic figure like she has or whatever, and makes her feel bad… again THEN that would be very bad.

 

[GLam8833]

That is a different kind of pride again, isn’t it? The pride of thinking “I don’t need God’s help”, the pride of thinking “nobody has the right to tell me what to do and what not to do”…

Now the other kind of pride would be: What if you are “proud of yourself” (in the good sense, I think that exists too?) that you stopped smoking. Would you think it is sinful to tell others about it because you felt it was an achievement?
I think this is a very sensitive area.
(And I humbly admit that I may be wrong in what I say or feel.)
Sensitive because, ont he one hand, I can’ find much wrong in sharing achievements with others. All competitive sports would be sinful otherwise. A child coming home beaming with joy that it has done well on the test - would be sinful.
The example of Facebook I mentioned before - posting a good photos and hoping for “likes” from my friends would be sinful.
Wearing a new piece of clothing or coming back from a vacation enjoying other saying “wow you look good” would be sinful.
Feeling happy when somebody says “wow I didn’t know you are so good at this” would be sinful.
I don’t feel these things are sinful?

Now the sensitive part is… where it CAN become sinful. The smoking example. If an ex-smoker tells his friends he has stopped smoking, something they never thought possible and they arre quite in awe, and the ex-smoker quite enjoys that - I don’t think that is sinful? It may even have a positive infulence on him to keep up the non-smoking…

On the other hand, if he told other smokers then what weak people they are, because they couldn’t do it too, that they are morally worse than he is, and puts them down… THEN I would say that is morally not ok.

Or: A girl gets compliments because she looks good. It makes her happy. I don’t think that is sinful?
But if she then puts down another girl, who maybe wans’t blessed with an aerobic figure like she has or whatever, and makes her feel bad… again THEN that would be very bad.

I feel that the above post hit the right note!
Praise be to the Lord Jesus!

 

[glendab]

Hello Kathrin.
From another thread of yours I can tell I picked the wrong subject - smoking!!!

That is a different kind of pride again, isn’t it? The pride of thinking “I don’t need God’s help”, the pride of thinking “nobody has the right to tell me what to do and what not to do”…

Now the other kind of pride would be: What if you are “proud of yourself” (in the good sense, I think that exists too?) that you stopped smoking. Would you think it is sinful to tell others about it because you felt it was an achievement?
I think this is a very sensitive area.
(And I humbly admit that I may be wrong in what I say or feel.)
Sensitive because, ont he one hand, I can’ find much wrong in sharing achievements with others. All competitive sports would be sinful otherwise. A child coming home beaming with joy that it has done well on the test - would be sinful.
The example of Facebook I mentioned before - posting a good photos and hoping for “likes” from my friends would be sinful.
Wearing a new piece of clothing or coming back from a vacation enjoying other saying “wow you look good” would be sinful.
Feeling happy when somebody says “wow I didn’t know you are so good at this” would be sinful.
I don’t feel these things are sinful?

Now the sensitive part is… where it CAN become sinful. The smoking example. If an ex-smoker tells his friends he has stopped smoking, something they never thought possible and they arre quite in awe, and the ex-smoker quite enjoys that - I don’t think that is sinful? It may even have a positive infulence on him to keep up the non-smoking…

On the other hand, if he told other smokers then what weak people they are, because they couldn’t do it too, that they are morally worse than he is, and puts them down… THEN I would say that is morally not ok.

Or: A girl gets compliments because she looks good. It makes her happy. I don’t think that is sinful?
But if she then puts down another girl, who maybe wans’t blessed with an aerobic figure like she has or whatever, and makes her feel bad… again THEN that would be very bad.

I find it is much better for me to examine my own conscience rather than my neighbor’s. It doesn’t help me one little bit to find the hidden sins of another. Mine are what I’ll be judged on. I will never grow beyond the third grade level if I only focus on what other’s do. Having a judgmental attitude towards others prevents me from loving them and that is what we are called to do - love our neighbors as ourselves.

If you are uncertain of what is or is not sinful, I suggest you get some books on the subject. The Church has published plenty on this particular subject. It is Lent so they should be abundantly available at any Catholic bookstore either on the Internet or in your home town.

Glenda

 

[Kathrin]

Hello Kathrin.
From another thread of yours I can tell I picked the wrong subject - smoking!!!

Not the wrong subject because of that.
Yes I personally flee from cigarette smoke but that doesn’t mean I cannot feel for smokers and their struggles, or that I have something against them personally.

I was starting to be embarrassed in front of you because I was afraid of what you might think of me…

 

[Bookcat]

I’d be careful with that.

What rises to mortal or not should be between a confessor, God, and the Sinner.
.

What I wrote was a good way of putting it.

But yes a confessor can assist one (and will say what I noted).

 

[Bookcat]

For you to say “rather often” is a potentially dangerous way of looking at the first of the seven capital sins and the one thought to have landed Satan in Hell.

Most of the capital sins admit of smallness (parvity) of matter.

I noted that one can commit mortal sin via Pride -such as when rejecting God.

What I noted there to the point is that those who are living a Christian life -seeking to follow Christ faithfully … for them yes Pride is often more of the venial sort.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Most of the capital sins admit of smallness (parvity) of matter.

I noted that one can commit mortal sin via Pride -such as when rejecting God.

What I noted there to the point is that those who are living a Christian life -seeking to follow Christ faithfully … for them yes Pride is often more of the venial sort.

Says you.

I’d leave the Binding and loosing and judging to the Church.

It is not up to us to judge others on sin. That goes both ways. I cannot pronouce someone in mortal sin, and you cannot say it is venial. It is always odd to me to take this view. It discourages contrition and asserts your own imperfect understanding of sin and someone’s intent and asserts it on others.

If someone thinks they are in the sin of pride, best to go to confession. Is it your pride that keeps you from going, “you are right”

 

[underacloud]

Says you.

I’d leave the Binding and loosing and judging to the Church.

It is not up to us to judge others on sin. That goes both ways. I cannot pronouce someone in mortal sin, and you cannot say it is venial. It is always odd to me to take this view. It discourages contrition and asserts your own imperfect understanding of sin and someone’s intent and asserts it on others.

If someone thinks they are in the sin of pride, best to go to confession. Is it your pride that keeps you from going, “you are right”

We must go to confession for mortal sins.

But pride is considered a capital sin. Capital sins are not the same as mortal sins, but rather vices that influence us negatively and may lead us to certain mortal sins. If pride causes us to commit a particular mortal sin, then yes we must go to confession.

If we merely have pride (and I think we all do to some degree), that has not caused us to commit a particular mortal sin, then there is no requirement to bring such a venial fault to confession. Confessing venial faults is always good, but not required.

 

[fred_conty]

So, pride got brought up in my theology class the other day. My professor said pride would land you in hell much faster than sexual sins; and that got me thinking. How can one be humble? It seems like whenever I try to humble, I’m always like, “Hey! What a good job I’m doing, being humble and all,” which I realize isn’t being humble at all. Another example, I went to confession recently, and I thought to myself, “Good job for me for realizing pride could be a problem!” I realize I need to correct myself every time this happens, but I’m nor sure how. . . Does anyone have any suggestions?

Secondly, and I believe more urgently, what do you do in the situation I am about to present? I’m in college. And being in college, I see a lot of drinking, drugs, and sex. Now, I’ve never gotten into those, but I know a lot of people who do. How do I few them? I feel like I’m doing a better job than them (which is so prideful), but if you think about it, I am. I know I really can’t think like that; but how do I think? I’m really wondering about this. Anyone?

I copied this from somewhere.

old song by Mac Davis.

Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
when you’re perfect in every way.
I can’t wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
but I’m doing the best that I can.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I copied this from somewhere.

old song by Mac Davis.

Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
when you’re perfect in every way.
I can’t wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble
but I’m doing the best that I can.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

My father, when he was alive, used to sing this song every day. Thanks for making me smile!

 

[Bookcat]

Says you.

I’d leave the Binding and loosing and judging to the Church.

It is not up to us to judge others on sin. That goes both ways. I cannot pronouce someone in mortal sin, and you cannot say it is venial. It is always odd to me to take this view. It discourages contrition and asserts your own imperfect understanding of sin and someone’s intent and asserts it on others.

I always leave all to the Church.

Such though is not my personal “idea”. What I have, I have received.

It is not a question of one judging another but of an understanding of moral and spiritual theology regarding the sin of pride and when such is grave matter and when such is venial matter (let us avoid of course the venial too) (and regarding the other capital sins since they were brought up where most of those admit of parvity of matter). This* is* a forum for theology.

Yes a person ought to go often to confession and yes their confessor can guide them regarding their various struggles with various sins.

(PS my responses are directed more to the sins of pride per se (and I was noting regarding such in a person who seeks to follow Christ faithfully) not to necessarily a particular example of pride or person).

 

[Bookcat]

therealpresence.org/dictionary/pdict.htm (this is under copyright and not sure they wish it posted directly so I post the link -choose “Pride” from the drop box and then click definition. From the Theologian Fr. John Hardon S.J. who was of quite high repute as well as being now a “Servant of God”.)