A question, regarding the keys, for those belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church?

[joe370]

I was told that the keys of the kingdom were not only given to Peter, but the rest of the Apostles as well, which inspired me to ask the following question:

I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind giving me one example of the church, either east or west, (prior to the great east-west schism) - illustrating that the keys were in fact given to another apostle other than Peter, as I have done below, regarding Peter, regarding certain Eastern Patriarchs who lived prior to the great east-west schism?
Perhaps I have overlooked those citations. Thanks…

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch of the Eastern part of the Church, AD 363:

“For Peter was there,**who carrieth the keys of heaven.” **

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, (AD 387:

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles…Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church…who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world.

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine, AD 645:

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for ‘Peter,’ saith He, ‘lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.’

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople, 759-826, writing to Pope Leo III:

Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.

 

[theistgal]

Wow, I haven’t been here for a while. Are Catholics still trying to “bait” the Eastern Orthodox (and vice versa, I have no doubt)?

What’s the reason - or the point? The EO have their interpretations of those passages, which aren’t hard to find. You may not agree with them but they’re not ignorant of those statements. But all that’s going to happen is that they’re going to counter-post with their own quotations from other saints pointing out the flaws of the Papacy and then you’re going to have to counter-counter-post with reasons why these saints were right and those saints were wrong, and …

Come on, what’s the point? It’s Lent. Why start another argument? Why not just pray for each other?

 

[joe370]

Hi theistgal…

Wow, I haven’t been here for a while. Are Catholics still trying to “bait” the Eastern Orthodox (and vice versa, I have no doubt)?

I am not worthy of your wow. It’s a legitimate question and my goal is to learn.

What’s the reason - or the point?

Simple: I was told by an eastern orthodox Christian that the keys were given to all 12 apostles, as opposed to just Peter, and I am looking for some historical proof.

The EO have their interpretations of those passages, which aren’t hard to find. You may not agree with them but they’re not ignorant of those statements. But all that’s going to happen is that they’re going to counter-post with their own quotations from other saints pointing out the flaws of the Papacy and then you’re going to have to counter-counter-post with reasons why these saints were right and those saints were wrong, and

The supposed flaws of the Papacy, and who was right and who was wrong, are irrelavent to post #1. Please address post #1?

Come on, what’s the point? It’s Lent. Why start another argument? Why not just pray for each other?

Why did you even come to this thread if you had no plans of addressing post #1? Why didn’t you just ignore the thread and pray, which I think is a wonderful idea? Prayer really is the only real key to unity.

 

[ciero]

Hi theistgal…

I am not worthy of your wow. It’s a legitimate question and my goal is to learn.

Simple: I was told by an eastern orthodox Christian that the keys were given to all 12 apostles, as opposed to just Peter, and I am looking for some historical proof.

The supposed flaws of the Papacy, and who was right and who was wrong, are irrelavent to post #1. Please address post #1?

Why did you even come to this thread if you had no plans of addressing post #1? Why didn’t you just ignore the thread and pray, which I think is a wonderful idea? Prayer really is the only real key to unity.

Don’t buy it Christine…this guy is always trying to bait the Orthodox! Good ole’ Latin triumphalism!

 

[WantingUnity]

Respectfully, I would also like to know how the EO members interpret these passages (or if there are other passages) and even though it may be they “aren’t hard to find” those interpretations…I haven’t been able to find them.

I hope someone who is EO can help.

 

[joe370]

Don’t buy it Christine…this guy is always trying to bait the Orthodox! Good ole’ Latin triumphalism!

Look, if you think my goal is to bait, as opposed to learn, either ignore me or simply answer post #1!!! Saying things like, Good ole’ Latin triumphalism, serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

[mark_a]

I was told that the keys of the kingdom were not only given to Peter, but the rest of the Apostles as well, which inspired me to ask the following question:

I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind giving me one example of the church, either east or west, (prior to the great east-west schism) - illustrating that the keys were in fact given to another apostle other than Peter, as I have done below, regarding Peter, regarding certain Eastern Patriarchs who lived prior to the great east-west schism?
Perhaps I have overlooked those citations. Thanks…

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch of the Eastern part of the Church, AD 363:

“For Peter was there,**who carrieth the keys of heaven.” **

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, (AD 387:

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles…Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church…who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world.

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine, AD 645:

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for ‘Peter,’ saith He, ‘lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.’

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople, 759-826, writing to Pope Leo III:

Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.

Tons of Catholic jokes begin with “A man dies and meets St Peter is at the pearly gates . . . . .”

Is there an Orthodox version?

 

[RyanBlack]

Look, if you think my goal is to bait, as opposed to learn, either ignore me or simply answer post #1!!! Saying things like, Good ole’ Latin triumphalism, serves no purpose whatsoever.

Except to state what it is that is going on.

 

[JonNC]

Don’t buy it Christine…this guy is always trying to bait the Orthodox! Good ole’ Latin triumphalism!

There are some hard-core Triumphalists here at CAF. Joe isn’t one of them.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Blessings Joe370, you heard correct from our Orthodox brethren, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom of God to Peter first and then to all the apostles, including the authority to bind and loose.

I think, what becomes distinct from these revelations of Jesus, deals with authority of an apostle or apostolic successor to have these authoritative gifts from God to function with them within the flock they shepherd independently from all the other apostolic successors within their diocese.

What Jesus also reveals is that he changes Simon names to Rock = Peter instituting a unbreakable, immovable office on earth by giving Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven to bind and loose not in one owns diocese, city or province that all apostles have authority of, but Peter is given the keys of the kingdom of heaven from Jesus personally to bind and loose on “EARTH”. This is the fundamental differences. Jesus confirms Peter’s office by commanding him three times to “feed, teach, and tend” Jesus flock after He resurrects from the dead before Jesus ascends into heaven to bind and loose whatever Peter binds and loose on “Earth”, see John 21:15-17.

Peace be with you

joe370;7691208]I was told that the keys of the kingdom were not only given to Peter, but the rest of the Apostles as well, which inspired me to ask the following question:

 

[Madaglan]

I was told that the keys of the kingdom were not only given to Peter, but the rest of the Apostles as well, which inspired me to ask the following question:

I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind giving me one example of the church, either east or west, (prior to the great east-west schism) - illustrating that the keys were in fact given to another apostle other than Peter, as I have done below, regarding Peter, regarding certain Eastern Patriarchs who lived prior to the great east-west schism?
Perhaps I have overlooked those citations. Thanks…

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch of the Eastern part of the Church, AD 363:

“For Peter was there,**who carrieth the keys of heaven.” **

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, (AD 387:

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles…Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church…who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world.

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine, AD 645:

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for ‘Peter,’ saith He, ‘lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.’

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople, 759-826, writing to Pope Leo III:

Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.

St. Peter was given the keys, but the keys were given to the other Apostles as well, indeed to the whole Church. The power of binding and loosing, associated with the power of the keys, belongs to priests as well.

St. Augustine in his Tractates on John writes

The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. This Church, accordingly, which Peter represented, so long as it lives amidst evil, by loving and following Christ is delivered from evil. :

newadvent.org/fathers/1701124.htm

The real question is not over whether the other Apostles received the keys, but in what manner. Did they receive them subordinately and through the mediatorship of St. Peter? Or, did the giving of the keys to St. Peter as representative of the Apostles imply the giving of the keys to the whole Apostolic body? It’s a subtle difference but of considerable import.

 

[joe370]

Except to state what it is that is going on.

And your answer to post #1 is???

 

[joe370]

There are some hard-core Triumphalists here at CAF. Joe isn’t one of them.

Jon

Thanks Jon for the support. You would think, by now, that some of these folks, accusing me of baiting, would know better. I really am looking for an answer to post #1. Jon, have you found any examples of the church, either east or west, (prior to the great east-west schism) - showing that the keys were in fact given to another apostle, other than just Peter?

 

[joe370]

Hey Gabriel…

Blessings Joe370, you heard correct from our Orthodox brethren, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom of God to Peter first and then to all the apostles, including the authority to bind and loose.

I agree regarding the binding and loosing, but where does scripture and church history, tell us that the keys were given to all of the Apostles?

 

[joe370]

Hey Madaglan…

Madaglan;7692148]St. Peter was given the keys, but the keys were given to the other Apostles as well, indeed to the whole Church. The power of binding and loosing, associated with the power of the keys, belongs to priests as well.

St. Augustine in his Tractates on John writes

newadvent.org/fathers/1701124.htm

Could you copy and paste the citation where Augustine claims that the keys were given to all of the apostles, just as the binding and loosing was given to all of the Apostles? Thanks.

The real question is not over whether the other Apostles received the keys, but in what manner. Did they receive them subordinately and through the mediatorship of St. Peter? Or, did the giving of the keys to St. Peter as representative of the Apostles imply the giving of the keys to the whole Apostolic body? It’s a subtle difference but of considerable import.

Interesting perspective! I know that all of the apostles were charged with the mission to bind and loose in Jesus’ church, in His stead, but scripturally and historically speaking, I thought the keys were given to Peter alone, who then passed on his metaphorical keys to his successor, who did the same, which would explain why Jesus said to Simon alone: you are Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my church and the gates of hell will never prevail.

Your thoughts friend?

 

[Madaglan]

Hey Gabriel…

I agree regarding the binding and loosing, but where does scripture and church history, tell us that the keys were given to all of the Apostles?

The power of the keys as described in Matthew 16:19 is given in almost identical language in Matthew 18:18, which concerns all the Apostles.

Think of it this way: when Jesus said, “Woman, behold, your Son”, and then to the disciple John, “Behold, your mother” (John 19:26-27), the exchange was not simply between St. John and the Theotokos. Mary became not only the mother of St. John but of all mankind, just as we all become her children. John represented more than just himself. In similiar fashion, when Christ gave the keys to St. Peter, the scope was not limited to him.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks Jon for the support. You would think, by now, that some of these folks, accusing me of baiting, would know better. I really am looking for an answer to post #1. Jon, have you found any examples of the church, either east or west, (prior to the great east-west schism) - showing that the keys were in fact given to another apostle, other than just Peter?

I think, Joe, that Madaglan answers the question, referencing Matt. 18:18. In the modern context, I don’t believe the power to bind and loose is limited to the Pope and the Bishops and priests in communion with him, though it is certainly there, too.

EDIT: As an afterthought. Madaglan, I suspect though, would probably agree with you that the power resides exclusively in apostolic succession, which of course Lutherans would dispute. IOW, I believe firmly that when my pastor/confessor announces Absolution, he does it “as a servant of Christ and by His authority”.

Jon

 

[joe370]

The power of the keys as described in Matthew 16:19 is given in almost identical language in Matthew 18:18, which concerns all the Apostles.

Think of it this way: when Jesus said, “Woman, behold, your Son”, and then to the disciple John, “Behold, your mother” (John 19:26-27), the exchange was not simply between St. John and the Theotokos. Mary became not only the mother of St. John but of all mankind, just as we all become her children. John represented more than just himself. In similiar fashion, when Christ gave the keys to St. Peter, the scope was not limited to him.

Well, that’s an excellent way of looking at it, but I am still hoping that someone will answer my original question regarding the eastern bishops, (prior to the east-west schism) - stating that the keys were given to the other apostles; that was kind of why I started the thread; any citation will do?

Something like this, but substitute one of the other apostles for the name Peter:

"f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Origen - Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

 

[joe370]

Well, she did and she didn’t. Jon, take a look at post 18.

I think, Joe, that Madaglan answers the question, referencing Matt. 18:18. In the modern context, I don’t believe the power to bind and loose is limited to the Pope and the Bishops and priests in communion with him, though it is certainly there, too.

EDIT: As an afterthought. Madaglan, I suspect though, would probably agree with you that the power resides exclusively in apostolic succession, which of course Lutherans would dispute. IOW, I believe firmly that when my pastor/confessor announces Absolution, he does it “as a servant of Christ and by His authority”.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have to agree with you that scripture does not explicitly have Jesus giving the keys to all the apostles, as scripture reveals, Jesus giving the keys to the kingdom of heaven, to Peter alone. You have to hold the full context of the scriptures to see this come to light. But you have a point it is not as direct and personal as Jesus gives the keys to Peter individually. That is a lot of power to give one apostolic office.

Jesus attributes apostolic powers to all the apostles in the binding and loosing, baptizing, teaching, and especially the power to forgive and retain sin reveals the opening and closing office of all apostles.

The apostolic powers are in scripture such as the binding and loosing Mt. 18:18,

Matthew 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
**teaching them **to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

John 20;21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me,** so I send you.” **22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 **Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

We also have Jesus revealing special apostolic powers from their office of evangelization;

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **
19
Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy **and nothing will harm you.

Well Joe you make a good point, But we have to jump through hoops to find the full scope of Apostolic powers revealed and given to all the apostles.

P.S I love your Origen quote revealing Peter binding and loosing on earth as far as the heavens has Jesus himself is quoted to binding and loosing what Peter binds and looses, whereby the apostles do not have the Jesus revealed to bind and loose with them only the heavens are binding and loosing limiting their apostolic powers (authority). I have glossed over his writing before, but your context brings it out more, thanks for that tip, it is good for contemplation, wow.

Hey Gabriel…

I agree regarding the binding and loosing, but where does scripture and church history, tell us that the keys were given to all of the Apostles?