A question to ex-gays

[YehoiakhinEx232]

When I was a teenager I took a “neutral” stance on homosexuality, then I became enslaved to sexual immorality (maybe in the future I’ll talk or write about it for now I’ll just say that it was neither heterosexual nor homosexual) I despised it! I hated having no control over it! I hated having my freedom robbed from me! I hated loosing my childlike innocence! I hated how I got absolutely nothing out of it! That it gave me nothing but brief, pointless, worthless, empty pleasure!
I still struggle with my lusts from time to time but my ordeal lead to despise all forms of sexual immorality and I am absolutely furious with our culture and how promotes, celebrates and enforces sexual perversion. I am now more or less convinced that the homosexual equivalency movement is unjustifiable and wicked and that it will completely ruin the lives of those enslaved to same-sex attraction.
But I want to make sure that my beliefs are confirmed, so I want to ask anyone who has been struggling same-sex attraction; have any of the things I’ve just described been anything like what you’ve been through? Have your experiences been empty, loveless and without freedom and control?
Please tell me

 

[esieffe]

When I was a teenager I took a “neutral” stance on homosexuality, then I became enslaved to sexual immorality (maybe in the future I’ll talk or write about it for now I’ll just say that it was neither heterosexual nor homosexual) I despised it! I hated having no control over it! I hated having my freedom robbed from me! I hated loosing my childlike innocence! I hated how I got absolutely nothing out of it! That it gave me nothing but brief, pointless, worthless, empty pleasure!
I still struggle with my lusts from time to time but my ordeal lead to despise all forms of sexual immorality and I am absolutely furious with our culture and how promotes, celebrates and enforces sexual perversion. I am now more or less convinced that the homosexual equivalency movement is unjustifiable and wicked and that it will completely ruin the lives of those enslaved to same-sex attraction.
But I want to make sure that my beliefs are confirmed, so I want to ask anyone who has been struggling same-sex attraction; have any of the things I’ve just described been anything like what you’ve been through? Have your experiences been empty, loveless and without freedom and control?
Please tell me

I applaud your battle against lust and immorality. It sounds as if you have reached the light at the end of the tunnel. Many of us have endured such struggles. I agree that such experiences are indeed soul crushing. I too experienced a loss of innocence much too early.

I do not understand, however what your struggles have to do with the homosexual equivalency movement. Perhaps, having come through some major battles, you are transferring some anger towards that group? There is nothing wrong at all with defending the institution of marriage. I personally do not support GM. I do, however support the right of chaste people to defend and preserve their dignity.

No one can argue that this segment has a lion’s share of the hedonistic apple pie, but really, heterosexuals, being the majority, lead the way in hedonism. There is the pill, and the unforgivable, diabolical yet homogenized crime of abortion, which has even touched my life.

I just feel as the majority segment of society, we take issue with other groups, when we should first be looking at our own.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Preach it, brudda! Our culture is very licentious in sexual matters. And this is a serious problem.

But I don’t think that’s the root of the problem in the same-sex marriage debacle. Listen to what they’re asking for. They’re asking to love each other - as if somehow not being able to marry denies them this ability. It does deny them, on a certain level. Just as being a sibling to someone denies me the power to love them as if we were married, as well.

The problem is, our culture doesn’t understand that marriage is not a different degree of love from friendship or family. Marriage is a different type altogether. The reason the culture of the modern world doesn’t get it is, not so much that it’s carnal, as it is that it’s a twisted, inexplicable kind of spiritual. Our culture treats the body as if it is not really ourselves, but the medium by which we express “ourselves”, as if we were mere spirits possessing a body like a demon, or a ghost possessing a bed that floats around a room.

And because carnal relations are some of the strongest bonds two people can give to each other, the people who want to normalise gay relationships, under the guise of “marriages”, say that this carnal union ought to be called marriage, and no one ought to deny it to any two people who want it.

TLDR: Gay marriage is the result of an inexplicable “spiritualism”. People think their bodies are tools to express themselves, and that “I” am not bound by what my body is, but “I” can do with it what “I” like with it. And if “I” want to have sex with someone of my own sex to show we’re in love, that should be fine, because “we” are not defined by our bodies, apparently.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

…I hated having no control over it! I hated having my freedom robbed from me! I hated loosing my childlike innocence! I hated how I got absolutely nothing out of it! … my ordeal lead to despise all forms of sexual immorality and I am absolutely furious with our culture and how promotes, celebrates and enforces sexual perversion.

Yeh I think it is a confusion of high functioning young males in the area of sexuality that they are sometimes more repulsed by the lack of self mastery than a true sense of sin (ie offending God or neighbour). This can be a form of latent narcissism that may possibly be worth reflecting on.

It is the lot of us weak humans that none of us are ever totally in control even of our own selves due to original sin. Grace does not change that effect, we are redeemed in spite of it, and indeed rightly called holy even as we are sinners. Your fury with “our culture” seems a bit misplaced…are you also furious at yourself or perhaps another who may have betrayed your trust in this area originally?

Regardless, if we have a relationship with God then our personal lack of self-mastery should not, if we are on the best path, give rise to ongoing strong feelings like this. We are loved and understood by God even in our loss of control, perhaps more so at those times.

I cannot quite understand why you seem to identify sexual perversion and sexual immorality as equiv terms. Fornication and adultery are immoral of course but they are not perversions. Though of course, like your own past issues, they may also be expressions of lack of self-mastery.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

I do not understand, however what your struggles have to do with the homosexual equivalency movement. Perhaps, having come through some major battles, you are transferring some anger towards that group? There is nothing wrong at all with defending the institution of marriage. I personally do not support GM. I do, however support the right of chaste people to defend and preserve their dignity.

No one can argue that this segment has a lion’s share of the hedonistic apple pie, but really, heterosexuals, being the majority, lead the way in hedonism. There is the pill, and the unforgivable, diabolical yet homogenized crime of abortion, which has even touched my life.

I just feel as the majority segment of society, we take issue with other groups, when we should first be looking at our own.

With the establishment of the gay hegemony I fear for the coming ordeal of ex-gays and those struggling same-sex attraction. While the coming persecution of the church is horrible I think that in away, it’s a good thing or at the very least a just chastisement, especially with state of the church in today’s age and the coming battle at the synod. We need the mill of sanctity and martyrdom to start grinding producing saints to renew the church.

For me personally, what I find truly terrifying is what will happen to ex-gays and those wanting to be free of their enslavement when the movement goes after them and people like the Courage Apostolate who want to help them. The gay movement basically wants to make their desires for purity a thought crime and ensure their imprisonment to their perversions in this life and (Oh God please frobbid and have mercy!) the next

 

[Michael19682]

Jesus commanded everyone to not judge.
Sometimes we might forget that homosexuality has a long history rooted since before the laws of Judaism which forbid men from such action. Homosexuality can seem inexplicable when you are a heterosexual.
Even being personally averse to such expressions in that regard for my own private reasons but striving nevertheless to not judge any man or woman for any reason at all, there nevertheless appears (i.e., reads) to me a certain “pagan-phobic” bias in the writings of Paul that calls into question for many the Letter’s existential attributions of why God allowed proliferation of the practice amongst said people, i.e., “abandoned them to their unnatural…” Pagans are vilified as conflicted, confused, savage, etc. How much of the diatribe therein, taken irrespective of God’s ultimate plan for people if such “taking” is possible at all, is borne out by historical evidence? Savage pagans, definitely. But what of the noble pagans? Should they keep silent and become manifestly confused and angry, conflicted and divided because the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few?

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Preach it, brudda! Our culture is very licentious in sexual matters. And this is a serious problem.

But I don’t think that’s the root of the problem in the same-sex marriage debacle. Listen to what they’re asking for. They’re asking to love each other - as if somehow not being able to marry denies them this ability. It does deny them, on a certain level. Just as being a sibling to someone denies me the power to love them as if we were married, as well.

The problem is, our culture doesn’t understand that marriage is not a different degree of love from friendship or family. Marriage is a different type altogether. The reason the culture of the modern world doesn’t get it is, not so much that it’s carnal, as it is that it’s a twisted, inexplicable kind of spiritual. Our culture treats the body as if it is not really ourselves, but the medium by which we express “ourselves”, as if we were mere spirits possessing a body like a demon, or a ghost possessing a bed that floats around a room.

And because carnal relations are some of the strongest bonds two people can give to each other, the people who want to normalise gay relationships, under the guise of “marriages”, say that this carnal union ought to be called marriage, and no one ought to deny it to any two people who want it.

TLDR: Gay marriage is the result of an inexplicable “spiritualism”. People think their bodies are tools to express themselves, and that “I” am not bound by what my body is, but “I” can do with it what “I” like with it. And if “I” want to have sex with someone of my own sex to show we’re in love, that should be fine, because “we” are not defined by our bodies, apparently.

Yes, dualism and disrespect for the body and mistaking love for lust (or more likely fearing and hating real love) are the at the root of this movement. After all the vast majority of those on front lines and maybe even in the upper echelons of the gay movement are heterosexuals.

But I think ex-gays could also be a powerful weapon in defense of marriage and chastity, especially considering the gay movement tries to paint gays as victims and people respond more emotional arguments than to reason. We should rally behind these people and give them help and support, after all this is the year of mercy.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Yeh I think it is a confusion of high functioning young males in the area of sexuality that they are sometimes more repulsed by the lack of self mastery than a true sense of sin (ie offending God or neighbour). This can be a form of latent narcissism that may possibly be worth reflecting on.

It is the lot of us weak humans that none of us are ever totally in control even of our own selves due to original sin. Grace does not change that effect, we are redeemed in spite of it, and indeed rightly called holy even as we are sinners. Your fury with “our culture” seems a bit misplaced…are you also furious at yourself or perhaps another who may have betrayed your trust in this area originally?

Regardless, if we have a relationship with God then our personal lack of self-mastery should not, if we are on the best path, give rise to ongoing strong feelings like this. We are loved and understood by God even in our loss of control, perhaps more so at those times.

I cannot quite understand why you seem to identify sexual perversion and sexual immorality as equiv terms. Fornication and adultery are immoral of course but they are not perversions. Though of course, like your own past issues, they may also be expressions of lack of self-mastery.

Amen, after all Real Love, The One True Love wins in the end, I must do all I can to make sure I’m on the right side.

 

[Trident_H]

Yes, dualism and disrespect for the body and mistaking love for lust (or more likely fearing and hating real love) are the at the root of this movement. After all the vast majority of those on front lines and maybe even in the upper echelons of the gay movement are heterosexuals.

But I think ex-gays could also be a powerful weapon in defense of marriage and chastity, especially considering the gay movement tries to paint gays as victims and people respond more emotional arguments than to reason. We should rally behind these people and give them help and support, after all this is the year of mercy.

Look I don’t even know what an ex-gay is. I mean yeah I guess a guy could come out and say he is gay and then later claim not to be gay, but um, how does that really work? I mean there are certain physiological differences that science teaches us gays are more likely to have. Do those just go away? I don’t know. I guess since there is such a range maybe some gays really just don’t feel stuff very strongly and so can walk away, but man, no it isn’t that simple. And I wish I could tell you how damaging it can be to be taught that you are an abomination in the eyes of the God you were taught to trust and love. How hard it can be to try to convince yourself that you’re normal. When you aren’t. How hard it is to even try to like girls and to get married to one. When you shouldn’t. When you keep thinking and praying that you will stop liking other guys. When you don’t.

I mean what’s more damaging? To force gays to pretend just so society can feel better? But then what happens when they try to fool themselves and only later realize they can’t do it anymore? What happens to the poor women who find themselves married to a guy who actually gets distracted when other men are around? To the poor girl who thinks its her fault when the guy is not really into her anymore because he can’t keep pretending?

Lies hurt. They hurt a lot.

Peace.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Jesus commanded everyone to not judge.
Sometimes we might forget that homosexuality has a long history rooted since before the laws of Judaism which forbid men from such action. Homosexuality can seem inexplicable when you are a heterosexual.
Even being personally averse to such expressions in that regard for my own private reasons but striving nevertheless to not judge any man or woman for any reason at all, there nevertheless appears (i.e., reads) to me a certain “pagan-phobic” bias in the writings of Paul that calls into question for many the Letter’s existential attributions of why God allowed proliferation of the practice amongst said people, i.e., “abandoned them to their unnatural…” Pagans are vilified as conflicted, confused, savage, etc. How much of the diatribe therein, taken irrespective of God’s ultimate plan for people if such “taking” is possible at all, is borne out by historical evidence? Savage pagans, definitely. But what of the noble pagans? Should they keep silent and become manifestly confused and angry, conflicted and divided because the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few?

When Jesus said do not judge he meant do not say that someone is for sure going to heaven or hell, or that someone is in heaven of hell, except of the saints in heaven and Judas Iscariot in hell we do not know for sure that someone is in or is going heaven or hell. (we do know that Balthasarianism, is false that we do not have a reasonable hope that all are saved and broad and wide is the way that leads to destruction) We just know what is
required of us for going to heaven and what puts one in danger of going to hell.

I do not quite get what you are saying, but it sounds like you’re saying that the only reason the church rejects homosexual acts is because pagans did them. The pagans of Saint Paul’s time never considered homosexual acts an equivalent to marriage and they would be appalled at today’s cultural view of sex. When the pagan engaged in licentious heterosexual practices they did it out of an inappropriate admiration of sex, they viewed sex as the awesome act of producing new life (which it is) and believed that the desire for sex was the power of life itself. Thus pagans of Saint Paul’s time knew that homosexual acts were sterile and unable to fulfill the purposes and meaning of marriage, they just didn’t consider it that much of a big deal.

 

[Michael19682]

…

I do not quite get what you are saying, but it sounds like you’re saying that the only reason the church rejects homosexual acts is because pagans did them. The pagans of Saint Paul’s time never considered homosexual acts an equivalent to marriage and they would be appalled at today’s cultural view of sex. When the pagan engaged in licentious heterosexual practices they did it out of an inappropriate admiration of sex, they viewed sex as the awesome act of producing new life (which it is) and believed that the desire for sex was the power of life itself. Thus pagans of Saint Paul’s time knew that homosexual acts were sterile and unable to fulfill the purposes and meaning of marriage, they just didn’t consider it that much of a big deal.

Nothing I can’t agree with. So in what sense does Paul become so enraged and so condemnatory? The Lord briefly mentions the sins of the two cities of antiquity, but other than that brief mention, unless I’m incorrect, he basically doesn’t talk about this subject. The Letter’s on the other hand make almost an entire theology of the condemnation.
Just wondering how these go from ‘A’ to ‘B’ in that regard if it having nothing to do with Jewish animosity toward Rome, albeit arriving in the form of one of her citizen’s own words.

 

[Josie33]

YehoiakhinEx232,

You are not alone in your struggle. I want to refer you to the testimony of a woman named Jackie Hill Perry. In short, she struggled with same-sex attraction for a number of years and lived in a constant state of conviction. That was until one day when God revealed to her that the sins that she loved would be the death of her. She considered everything she loved and the consequences, and realized she was holistically sinful. As she says, “its natural for us to have affections for things that God is not pleased with. Natural in not an affirming okay way”, but that it is inherent to our sinful nature. Its “just the human experience.”

However, “what the enemy will do, because your tempted, you will automatically think, I must still be gay because I feel this way. No you are human.” But the good news is that in Scripture there is “a massive amount of evidence that God has promised to give us the power to flee them and not give into them.”

In Jackie’s own experience and in those of others she encountered, she says that “even when they were fulfilling the lust of the flesh and walking in homosexuality, they never had peace. They never had joy.” She says, “so don’t give into the lie that that will make you happy, because it didn’t before.”

What helped her was learning about who God is in all His holiness and goodness. In doing so, she found that she wanted to follow His commands because she saw that it was a means by which she could get to know Him better. And it was in this way that she found happiness – in Him. She says, “and being happy in Him doesn’t mean that you won’t have suffering. It doesn’t mean that you won’t have pain. It means that you’ll have contentment and joy in the midst of it.”

Her are a couple of links to her interviews on YouTube:

Jackie - On New Life: youtube.com/watch?v=s-9X6X5aFKo

Jackie - Shares the Gospel (Finding pleasure and joy in sin): youtube.com/watch?v=NBzfaTbrvmY

Jackie - Encouragement for Christians Dealing with Same-Sex Temptations: youtube.com/watch?v=xSRK7wMA3H8

I hope this helps.

Josie

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Nothing I can’t agree with. So in what sense does Paul become so enraged and so condemnatory? The Lord briefly mentions the sins of the two cities of antiquity, but other than that brief mention, unless I’m incorrect, he basically doesn’t talk about this subject. The Letter’s on the other hand make almost an entire theology of the condemnation.
Just wondering how these go from ‘A’ to ‘B’ in that regard if it having nothing to do with Jewish animosity toward Rome, albeit arriving in the form of one of her citizen’s own words.

The problem with the pagan/gentile world’s view of homosexuality as well as it’s view of other sins is that, while they recognize that these behaviors are a violation of the Natural Moral Law, they do not take them seriously. They either downplay these vices or ignore them and are reluctant to confront them. Thus Saint Paul, in his letters to his gentile audiences has to tell them that they must now take these violations of the Natural Moral Law seriously, as they are now in an intimate relationship with the Author of these laws Himself.

 

[YehoiakhinEx232]

Look I don’t even know what an ex-gay is. I mean yeah I guess a guy could come out and say he is gay and then later claim not to be gay, but um, how does that really work? I mean there are certain physiological differences that science teaches us gays are more likely to have. Do those just go away? I don’t know. I guess since there is such a range maybe some gays really just don’t feel stuff very strongly and so can walk away, but man, no it isn’t that simple. And I wish I could tell you how damaging it can be to be taught that you are an abomination in the eyes of the God you were taught to trust and love. How hard it can be to try to convince yourself that you’re normal. When you aren’t. How hard it is to even try to like girls and to get married to one. When you shouldn’t. When you keep thinking and praying that you will stop liking other guys. When you don’t.

I mean what’s more damaging? To force gays to pretend just so society can feel better? But then what happens when they try to fool themselves and only later realize they can’t do it anymore? What happens to the poor women who find themselves married to a guy who actually gets distracted when other men are around? To the poor girl who thinks its her fault when the guy is not really into her anymore because he can’t keep pretending?

Lies hurt. They hurt a lot.

Peace.

An ex-gay is a person who is successful in resisting same-sex urges may even enter into a successful marriage with a person of the opposite sex.

One who wants to free oneself from same-sex attraction will probably need therapy, the Courage Apostolate is Catholic approved apostolate that helps free people from same-sex attraction. If you are interested in freeing yourself from your same-sex desires, and grow in holiness to be a saint which is what every Catholic is called to be, please consider the Courage Apostolate couragerc.org as an option on your journey through life, but go unless you absolutely want to you must love God for the sake of loving God.

 

[Rau]

An ex-gay is a person who is successful in resisting same-sex urges may even enter into a successful marriage with a person of the opposite sex.

One who wants to free oneself from same-sex attraction will probably need therapy, the Courage Apostolate is Catholic approved apostolate that helps free people from same-sex attraction. If you are interested in freeing yourself from your same-sex desires, and grow in holiness to be a saint which is what every Catholic is called to be, please consider the Courage Apostolate couragerc.org as an option on your journey through life, but go unless you absolutely want to you must love God for the sake of loving God.

I’m not sure of Courage claims to have a means to free anyone from their desires. But it does seek to assist people to live chastely.

 

[Trident_H]

An ex-gay is a person who is successful in resisting same-sex urges may even enter into a successful marriage with a person of the opposite sex.

One who wants to free oneself from same-sex attraction will probably need therapy, the Courage Apostolate is Catholic approved apostolate that helps free people from same-sex attraction. If you are interested in freeing yourself from your same-sex desires, and grow in holiness to be a saint which is what every Catholic is called to be, please consider the Courage Apostolate couragerc.org as an option on your journey through life, but go unless you absolutely want to you must love God for the sake of loving God.

Thanks for that. I guess what I’m saying is that an ex-gay just sounds to me like a gay person who’s learned how to repress their feelings. I don’t know if that is really an ex-gay. I mean I don’t know if they suddenly wake up one day with no same sex attraction anymore or if they just learn a bunch of things to keep them from being tempted in that way. I’ve checked out the site, but where I’m staying right now I’m not going to be playing any of those videos out loud so I’m going to have to wait a bit for that.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Michael19682]

The problem with the pagan/gentile world’s view of homosexuality as well as it’s view of other sins is that, while they recognize that these behaviors are a violation of the Natural Moral Law, they do not take them seriously. They either downplay these vices or ignore them and are reluctant to confront them. Thus Saint Paul, in his letters to his gentile audiences has to tell them that they must now take these violations of the Natural Moral Law seriously, as they are now in an intimate relationship with the Author of these laws Himself.

I do not think that they recognized violation of the moral law. If they thought it was wrong they would not have done it. To say otherwise implies that they are not only morally uncompassed, but intrinsically deficient.

 

[frobert]

The problem with the pagan/gentile world’s view of homosexuality as well as it’s view of other sins is that, while they recognize that these behaviors are a violation of the Natural Moral Law, they do not take them seriously. They either downplay these vices or ignore them and are reluctant to confront them. Thus Saint Paul, in his letters to his gentile audiences has to tell them that they must now take these violations of the Natural Moral Law seriously, as they are now in an intimate relationship with the Author of these laws Himself.

Your are making a wholly unsubstantiated assumption. Your definition of “Natural Moral Law” is obviously “Thomistic Natural law” which has it roots in Aristotle’s “natural right" which, in of itself, does not include divine command. This is in opposition to biological theories of natural moral law such as Aristotelian Darwinism.

Aristotle’s idea of natural right as rooted in biology is fundamentally compatible with Darwin’s account of human nature. Like Aristotle, Darwin claimed that human beings are by nature social animals – coming together first in families and then in larger social groups. He also agreed with Aristotle in deriving morality from human nature.

Source: Darwin and Natural Law

This is not to take away from the Catholic belief in Thomas but only to point out there are alternate formulations and beliefs of Natural Law that do not recognize homosexuality as a violation of the natural moral law.

 

[3DOCTORS]

The problem with the pagan/gentile world’s view of homosexuality as well as it’s view of other sins is that, while they recognize that these behaviors are a violation of the Natural Moral Law, they do not take them seriously. They either downplay these vices or ignore them and are reluctant to confront them. Thus Saint Paul, in his letters to his gentile audiences has to tell them that they must now take these violations of the Natural Moral Law seriously, as they are now in an intimate relationship with the Author of these laws Himself.

Good point. Also remember that over 20 centuries, although the Church doesn’t change the essence of any of God’s moral laws, She does grow in Her understanding of the application and scope of them. She also incorporates the findings of men and women of learning in the sciences and medicine in the discernment process on how to pastorally approach each case and determine objective and subjective morality. People are individuals and their struggles with temptation will be unique, their responses when they fall will be unique (for example, the presence or absence of ongoing depression or anxiety, or different levels of neurotransmitters in the pleasure centers of their brains and potential for addiction to same). Cutting-edge science is proving an aid to right moral discernment if applied by those with thorough knowledge of both the moral principles and the need for mercy and encouragement of the sinner who struggles.

 

[Darryl_Revok]

I still struggle with my lusts from time to time but my ordeal lead to despise all forms of sexual immorality and I am absolutely furious with our culture and how promotes, celebrates and enforces sexual perversion. I am now more or less convinced that the homosexual equivalency movement is unjustifiable and wicked and that it will completely ruin the lives of those enslaved to same-sex attraction.

Nothing good can come of this attitude. Whatever anger you’re having, let it go. Otherwise when you backslide, it’s going to sting that much more and be that much more humiliating.