A quote from Luther: Bad catechesis?

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

“From early childhood I was accustomed to turn pale and tremble whenever I heard the name of Christ mentioned, for I was taught to look upon Him as a stern and wrathful Judge.” “We were taught that we ourselves had to atone for our sins, and since we could not make sufficient amends or do acceptable works, our teachers directed us to the saints in heaven, and made us call upon Mary the Mother of Christ and implore her to avert from us Christ’s wrath, and make Him inclined to be merciful to us.”

That above is a quote from Luther.

Now, some of you might question whether he was telling the truth, who knows.

But if he was telling the truth, how do you interpret this? Was the Catholic Church at the time suffering from bad catechesis, or would you somehow interpret this theology as being correct?

Medieval Catholic theology, to me, seems to be quite different to how things are interpreted these days, mostly thanks to the Council of Trent for clearing things up.

 

[MaryT777]

“From early childhood I was accustomed to turn pale and tremble whenever I heard the name of Christ mentioned, for I was taught to look upon Him as a stern and wrathful Judge.” “We were taught that we ourselves had to atone for our sins, and since we could not make sufficient amends or do acceptable works, our teachers directed us to the saints in heaven, and made us call upon Mary the Mother of Christ and implore her to avert from us Christ’s wrath, and make Him inclined to be merciful to us.”

That above is a quote from Luther.

Now, some of you might question whether he was telling the truth, who knows.

But if he was telling the truth, how do you interpret this? Was the Catholic Church at the time suffering from bad catechesis, or would you somehow interpret this theology as being correct?

Interesting question…

Medieval Catholic theology, to me, seems to be quite different to how things are interpreted these days, mostly thanks to the Council of Trent for clearing things up.

 

[MaryT777]

“From early childhood I was accustomed to turn pale and tremble whenever I heard the name of Christ mentioned, for I was taught to look upon Him as a stern and wrathful Judge.” “We were taught that we ourselves had to atone for our sins, and since we could not make sufficient amends or do acceptable works, our teachers directed us to the saints in heaven, and made us call upon Mary the Mother of Christ and implore her to avert from us Christ’s wrath, and make Him inclined to be merciful to us.”

That above is a quote from Luther.

Now, some of you might question whether he was telling the truth, who knows.

But if he was telling the truth, how do you interpret this? Was the Catholic Church at the time suffering from bad catechesis, or would you somehow interpret this theology as being correct?

Medieval Catholic theology, to me, seems to be quite different to how things are interpreted these days, mostly thanks to the Council of Trent for clearing things up.

Interesting question…

 

[JRTJ]

We must always fear God. It is part of our duty as Christians. It is a virtue. I am always concerned by people who are presumptuous regarding their salvation, for God does demand a lot from us for us to make it to Heaven. (Read the Dies Irae)

On the other hand, one must never fall into scrupolosity, which I do recognize is a real possibility if we focus too much attention on God’s judgement rather than contemplating his unending Mercy.

I do believe Luther, here, was expressing good catechesis in accord with the Church’s teachings. Fear of God as described by him (whitening, shaking, trembling) might be excessive but will likely motivate you to work hard on your faith and thus grant you a ‘ticket’ to Heaven. It is better to have such a fear of God than be lax, for it is mot likely those who have taken their salvation for granted and underestimated their need for repentance that populate Hell.

The Church should find, in my humble opinion, a balance between an excessive focus on Fear (as was the case in the Medieval Church) and an excessive focus on God’s Mercy (post-Vatican II case). Keep in mind that the Church’s moral teachings are infallible and unchanging, but what it teaches regarding the ‘how to’ aspect of the Faith, which you described above, is not formal teaching but varies in accord with any particular priest or bishop’s understanding…

In answer to your question then, it is certainly not bad catechesis but it reflects the prevailing attitudes of that time toward God, attitudes that vary over time and are culture-related.

 

[JonNC]

“From early childhood I was accustomed to turn pale and tremble whenever I heard the name of Christ mentioned, for I was taught to look upon Him as a stern and wrathful Judge.” “We were taught that we ourselves had to atone for our sins, and since we could not make sufficient amends or do acceptable works, our teachers directed us to the saints in heaven, and made us call upon Mary the Mother of Christ and implore her to avert from us Christ’s wrath, and make Him inclined to be merciful to us.”

That above is a quote from Luther.

Now, some of you might question whether he was telling the truth, who knows.

But if he was telling the truth, how do you interpret this? Was the Catholic Church at the time suffering from bad catechesis, or would you somehow interpret this theology as being correct?

Medieval Catholic theology, to me, seems to be quite different to how things are interpreted these days, mostly thanks to the Council of Trent for clearing things up.

Curious that we were discussing this in Bible Study the other day, about how the role of the Blessed Virgin became so prominent because of the perception of Christ being a harsh judge, and the need for us to have a kind, benevolent intercessor with Him. What better one to have than His mother.
The thought I got from what Pastor said is that this was earlier than Medieval times, as well.

Jon

 

[FathersKnowBest]

“From early childhood I was accustomed to turn pale and tremble whenever I heard the name of Christ mentioned, for I was taught to look upon Him as a stern and wrathful Judge.” “We were taught that we ourselves had to atone for our sins, and since we could not make sufficient amends or do acceptable works, our teachers directed us to the saints in heaven, and made us call upon Mary the Mother of Christ and implore her to avert from us Christ’s wrath, and make Him inclined to be merciful to us.”

That above is a quote from Luther.

Now, some of you might question whether he was telling the truth, who knows.

But if he was telling the truth, how do you interpret this? Was the Catholic Church at the time suffering from bad catechesis, or would you somehow interpret this theology as being correct?

Medieval Catholic theology, to me, seems to be quite different to how things are interpreted these days, mostly thanks to the Council of Trent for clearing things up.

Catechesis was at a particularly low point for a number of reasons.

Here’s a main one: plagues.

There would be periodic and frequent outbreaks. There was one group of men, in particular, who were uniquely qualified to aid the victims in that they were the rare group that was educated AND motivated by their love of God and neighbor: the clergy.

And so, no doubt, there was a priest shortage that makes our present shortage in the US look like a minor blip. And those that they did have were more likely to have little theological training.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

We must always fear God. It is part of our duty as Christians. It is a virtue. I am always concerned by people who are presumptuous regarding their salvation, for God does demand a lot from us for us to make it to Heaven. (Read the Dies Irae)

On the other hand, one must never fall into scrupolosity, which I do recognize is a real possibility if we focus too much attention on God’s judgement rather than contemplating his unending Mercy.

I do believe Luther, here, was expressing good catechesis in accord with the Church’s teachings. Fear of God as described by him (whitening, shaking, trembling) might be excessive but will likely motivate you to work hard on your faith and thus grant you a ‘ticket’ to Heaven. It is better to have such a fear of God than be lax, for it is mot likely those who have taken their salvation for granted and underestimated their need for repentance that populate Hell.

The Church should find, in my humble opinion, a balance between an excessive focus on Fear (as was the case in the Medieval Church) and an excessive focus on God’s Mercy (post-Vatican II case). Keep in mind that the Church’s moral teachings are infallible and unchanging, but what it teaches regarding the ‘how to’ aspect of the Faith, which you described above, is not formal teaching but varies in accord with any particular priest or bishop’s understanding…

In answer to your question then, it is certainly not bad catechesis but it reflects the prevailing attitudes of that time toward God, attitudes that vary over time and are culture-related.

Good points. How would you respond to the last part of Luther’s quote however, in which the teachers directed them to implore Mother Mary to avert Christ’s wrath from them, and make Him inclined to be merciful to them???

The Protestant objection to intercession of saints, that there is only one mediator between God and man, doesn’t work with present day Catholicism. However, you really do get that feeling that God was this sort of unapproachable being in the Medieval times, and the only way to reach Him was to pray to the saints to approach Him.

 

[TimothyH]

Good points. How would you respond to the last part of Luther’s quote however, in which the teachers directed them to implore Mother Mary to avert Christ’s wrath from them, and make Him inclined to be merciful to them???

The Protestant objection to intercession of saints, that there is only one mediator between God and man, doesn’t work with present day Catholicism. However, you really do get that feeling that God was this sort of unapproachable being in the Medieval times, and the only way to reach Him was to pray to the saints to approach Him.

That is actually a very Marian spirituality, similar to what St. Louis de Montfort wrote. This is a spirituality which states that it is better to have an intercessor than to go directly to Christ.

The King provides everything for the life and health of his subjects - he became man for us, died for us, rose from the dead for us, established a church which provides life giving sacraments, devotions, guidance and prayers, and sends his Holy Spirit to us for our sanctification. Yet we sin against the king again and again, and then have the audacity to approach him and ask for even more favors.

There is a biblical basis for this spirituality. The queens of the Old Testaments always interceded with the king for the common man who could not otherwise get the king’s attention. It is a very Marian spirituality which calls upon Mary to intercede for us and to obtain for us what we need from the King of kings.

This is similar to the spirituality in the book “The Imitation of Christ”.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

We must always fear God. It is part of our duty as Christians. It is a virtue. I am always concerned by people who are presumptuous regarding their salvation, for God does demand a lot from us for us to make it to Heaven. (Read the Dies Irae)

On the other hand, one must never fall into scrupolosity, which I do recognize is a real possibility if we focus too much attention on God’s judgement rather than contemplating his unending Mercy.

I do believe Luther, here, was expressing good catechesis in accord with the Church’s teachings. Fear of God as described by him (whitening, shaking, trembling) might be excessive but will likely motivate you to work hard on your faith and thus grant you a ‘ticket’ to Heaven. It is better to have such a fear of God than be lax, for it is mot likely those who have taken their salvation for granted and underestimated their need for repentance that populate Hell.

T**he Church should find, in my humble opinion, a balance between an excessive focus on Fear (as was the case in the Medieval Church) and an excessive focus on God’s Mercy (post-Vatican II case). **Keep in mind that the Church’s moral teachings are infallible and unchanging, but what it teaches regarding the ‘how to’ aspect of the Faith, which you described above, is not formal teaching but varies in accord with any particular priest or bishop’s understanding…

In answer to your question then, it is certainly not bad catechesis but it reflects the prevailing attitudes of that time toward God, attitudes that vary over time and are culture-related.

Where does the idea that there was an excessive focus on fear in the medieval Church come from? I don’t think that is the case.

-Tim-

 

[Ion]

Very skilled used of words to suggest the extremes as something usual;

“pale and tremble…” this should not be the normal result/behaviour because of our fear of God
but can happen
“atone”…“implore” : justification or sanctification?

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

That is actually a very Marian spirituality, similar to what St. Louis de Montfort wrote. This is a spirituality which states that it is better to have an intercessor than to go directly to Christ.

The King provides everything for the life and health of his subjects - he became man for us, died for us, rose from the dead for us, established a church which provides life giving sacraments, devotions, guidance and prayers, and sends his Holy Spirit to us for our sanctification. Yet we sin against the king again and again, and then have the audacity to approach him and ask for even more favors.

There is a biblical basis for this spirituality. The queens of the Old Testaments always interceded with the king for the common man who could not otherwise get the king’s attention. It is a very Marian spirituality which calls upon Mary to intercede for us and to obtain for us what we need from the King of kings.

This is similar to the spirituality in the book “The Imitation of Christ”.

-Tim-

Doesn’t the incarnation itself mean we really should come to Christ directly? God is love divine, and wants a relationship with us directly. I understand intercession, but I don’t see how we can possibly say that we should be wary of going to Christ directly. We should never hesitate to approach the King of Kings, the Creator the universe, because this same King became one of us and lived and died as a simple carpenter in order to establish an everlasting relationship with us. Our God is a personal God. We shouldn’t have to go to anyone else instead. Jesus truly is the mediator between God and man. In one beautiful Person, God and man met most intimately by truly becoming one flesh in the figure of Jesus Christ. God is love; a passionate love that burns for each and every one of us. How do you justify the idea that we should go to Mary to somehow reduce Christ’s wrath upon us?

 

[Holly3278]

I think perhaps that in Medieval times people were more accustomed to viewing God as wrathful and stern. However, He is mercy, love, and justice. Remember, God is justice just as He is merciful and love. Unfortunately I think that some people had a tendency to obsess about the justice aspect of God.