(A Rant) I'm beginning to wonder if there are any men who don't

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This probably is no help but I’ve never had the urge for either. I have gone to clubs at the request of friends but spent the time feeling sorry for the women. Don’t mistake me for a saint though! I certainly have sinned in many other ways. I’ve just always seen both as degrading to women.
 
I know what addiction is like and I know most people would consider my temptations ugly and hard to sympathize with. It hurts me however to know that things as ugly on every level as porn is are so appealing to men that they are a serious addiction for it seems to be most of the men in the world. Why? I know about visual stimulation. But why something ugly? It hurts my spirit to know I’m surrounded by and interacting with people who actually like nauseating things and not pretty and inspiring things. I don’t even like doing business or making small talk with someone who might secretly be so incomprehensible. I’m not judging. I’m just dazed from the shock even after all these years. And I know there are woemn porn addicts too. I know at least one who was pretty extreme about it, in fact. I don’t understand her either though. If you are a amle or female porn addict, can you tell me why you aren’t just turned off by those sights like some of us? Are there two sides to you and if so which one is stronger? Does it change? Does it start off different from how it turns out, like drinking? What part of you does it hook you with?
 
I know what addiction is like and I know most people would consider my temptations ugly and hard to sympathize with. It hurts me however to know that things as ugly on every level as porn is are so appealing to men that they are a serious addiction for it seems to be most of the men in the world. Why? I know about visual stimulation. But why something ugly? It hurts my spirit to know I’m surrounded by and interacting with people who actually like nauseating things and not pretty and inspiring things. I don’t even like doing business or making small talk with someone who might secretly be so incomprehensible. I’m not judging. I’m just dazed from the shock even after all these years. And I know there are woemn porn addicts too. I know at least one who was pretty extreme about it, in fact. I don’t understand her either though. If you are a amle or female porn addict, can you tell me why you aren’t just turned off by those sights like some of us? Are there two sides to you and if so which one is stronger? Does it change? Does it start off different from how it turns out, like drinking? What part of you does it hook you with?
Could one try to give an explination without in turn being slammed as giving excuses? (Sorry, I don’t mean that specifically to you, but it seems to come up often.) If you cannot try to reflect on your own weakness, and try to understand it through that, then I suppose you just won’t understand. But don’t worry ignorance in a type of sin is bliss, and is better not leaning it in real life. (Well unless you are sinning, but are unaware of it.
 
Could one try to give an explination without in turn being slammed as giving excuses? (Sorry, I don’t mean that specifically to you, but it seems to come up often.) If you cannot try to reflect on your own weakness, and try to understand it through that, then I suppose you just won’t understand. But don’t worry ignorance in a type of sin is bliss, and is better not leaning it in real life. (Well unless you are sinning, but are unaware of it.
I’m not going to slam you. I am trying to understand, but it seems different.
 
Look at porn that is.

Or go to strip clubs or topless bars.

I’ve really had it with believing that there must be ONE man left who is able to refrain from it.

It something that has broken me down over and over and over again. It’s been devastating to find out that my grandfather, my father, my uncles, my brothers, good friends, boyfriends, husband, and now my SO whom I was convinced was a totally different kind of guy, ALL look at it.

What’s worse, is I’m looked at as some sort of supreme prude for not accepting this as OK.

I’m tired. I give up. And I’m really tired of hearing excuses.

What is it that is so enticing to men about some strangers breasts? Or rear end? Or whatever body part they may be fixated on? Don’t men realize that there are millions of women in the world who have these parts and there are actually women who love them enough to let them see these parts and be intimate with them IN REAL LIFE??(I’m talking wives) Do they not realize that there are women who would actually be interested in loving them, and making love to them not just taking advantage of them, and taking their money?? No, that never seems to be as appealing as some skank bent over on the computer screen. I’m sorry, but there is no mincing words with me on this subject anymore. It’s disgusting.

At this point, I just am not interested. In men, in relationships, in excuses, in anything. I refuse to accept this sick perversion as normal and I refuse to accept that I shouldn’t be bothered by it, and grossed out by it, or that I shouldn’t take it personally. That’s crud.
I agree that pornography is sinful and disgusting. It is also a sin that I struggle with (usually quite poorly) often. For me, I don’t look at ‘dirty pictures’ so much as do textual sexual RPGs (it’s all sinful regardless…I am not trying to rationalize or say mine is not sinful or something, because it is). It is a sin that many men deal with at all ages (past puberty/adolescence obviously). Now I am not married and have no significant other (i.e. girlfriend, fiance, etc.) so I cannot comment on that part of your complains.

However, I would say though that getting angry and going on the verbal attack against people who struggle with that sin is not helpful. Let me ak you something, are you sinless? Do you have any sins that others would find particularly offensive? Would you want said others going on the attack and ranting as you are? Remember what Jesus regardin the adulteress, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

As I said, I agree it is a sin and, for most religious men who are in this sin, they know it is a sin. It is an EXTREMELY difficult sin to overcome. Personally, I have prayed about it, confessed it (as an Anglican, to a Priest, but also to friends as a form of accountability) and sometimes made good strides in overcoming it (avoiding it for a couple weeks). Being ranted at does not usually help (it usually just causes people to get defensive).

Why do I do it? Loneliness for one thing (you may say there are plenty of women out there, but a lot of them, even among those claiming to Christians, would just as soon as take it to the ‘physical’ level and others, like yourself by your own words, will abandon the man as soon as they find out about the problem…and it getting the love of a good woman is not as easy as you make it out to be). Also, there is a need for sexual release and I have yet to figure out another way to cope with it (no prospects for marriage yet).

I will agree with you that I do not understand the fixation with ‘dirty pictures’. Like I said, I mine is textual (there might be a picture of who each person represents, but it is not a ‘dirty picture’, just a picture of another person). I have looked at pornographic images before, but it did not do anything to/for me. I have never been to a nudie bar and I have never had that desire.

Regardless, I agree fully that pornography (whether in the pictographic or textual form) is sinful and a disgusting habit and addiction. Instead of ranting and telling most Christians who deal with this sin what they already know (that they are sinners and that pornography is a disgusting sin), why don’t you look into ways to try and help people overcome this issue?

Another thing, and this is not directed at the OP, but I have noticed a bit of a double-standard on this sin. If we see someone who is an alcoholic or struggles with any other addiction, Church people are told be supportive, understanding (not accepting: sin is sin) and to try and help that person overcome their sin. If someone struggles with pornography, they are castigated and told they are a pervert of some kind and viewed with disdain by members of the opposite sex. Has anyone else noticed this?
 
I’m not sure who told you that, but that is not a Church teaching.
If he got that advice from a priest or spiritual adviser I would not be so quick to dismiss it as ‘not Church teaching’. We don’t know all the angles involved.

Dating is to discern a vocation to marriage and potential spouse, and if he has this addiction I would say he is not spiritually, emotionally, mentally ready to consider marriage. He is not ready to offer himself fully to the sacrament. It’s not about never being tempted, or never sinning, and it’s not just about him. It’s not fair to his potential wife. To tell him to refrain from dating until he has this under control is not against Church teaching at all. More people should take the sacrament of marriage as seriously, and I admire Truck for seeking out advice on it.
 
However, I would say though that getting angry and going on the verbal attack against people who struggle with that sin is not helpful. Let me ak you something, are you sinless? Do you have any sins that others would find particularly offensive? Would you want said others going on the attack and ranting as you are? Remember what Jesus regardin the adulteress, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
I havent’ attacked anyone. Of course I am not sinless.:rolleyes: If I have a sin that is particularly offensive I would hope that someone would give me a stern talking to including the statement “you should be ashamed of yourself”. To not admonish a sinner is an insult to them. In blaming someone rightfully for their own sin you are recognizing the have the potential to be a saint.

Anyway this thread is not about sin, it’s about me trying to understand why. I still don’t fully get it, nor do I think you get how it affects other people. I don’t think you are trying to get it.

I am allowed to start a thread discussing a problem or issue I have just as anyone else here can. I’m pretty sure that’s what the boards are for. You can always avoid the thread if you find it so offensive.

Now, I’m going to go back to reading everyone else’s responses…peace.
 
One BF I had many years ago decided to take me to a porn movie when I was 18. It was gross and monotonous. To me the insult wasn’t that I didn’ measure up to her – for all I knew I did – but that such behavior and images appealed to this man at all. It was like learning that someone close to you, say your big brother, was driven wild by watching maggots eat meat close up, with disco music playing. You would feel degraded just being in the same room with such thoughts, knowing whatever he says to you is filtered through and must be heard in the context of such bizarre reactions to ugliness and filth. Later some friends rented a dirty video they had heard was famous, and he and I joined them in watching it. I didn’t care about the video but I wanted to get out of the house and socialize. BF kept saying he didn’t find it exciting but funny. Uh, yeah, except that it’s not funny and he’s not laughing and he looks like his eyes are going to burst, but I tried to watch with him. Ewww. So then they put on another one and I couldn’t deal with it. I don’t remember but I think I finally got out of there. BF kept going on about how funny they were. :rolleyes: **My point is that all the respect I ever entertained for him was gone forever because he liked ugliness. It had nothing to do with jealousy. It had to do with discovering that he wasn’t the person I thought. **He also claimed to think a Penthouse someone walked in and offered us was funny. It lay on the floor a long time. Now that I’m old and cynical I realize he left it like that to invite me to read it in case I wanted to try anything in it. Didn’t happen! Then, young and casual, I assumed things lay on floors because everyone was as bad a housekeeper as I was. A few glances into it I couldn’t stand any more. Why would anyone find those monstrously out-of-porportion, painted people doing sickening things entertaining? It makes me physically ill and suffocated and feel like I’m faling in a dark airless cave just to think about those images so many years later. Maybe no one ever understands other people’s addictions, but when someone gets addicted to distilled ugliness, I feel betrayed regardless of what our relationship was, and I can’t help it.
Wow. Thank you. You’ve said exactly what has been in my head for YEARS and I haven’t been able to express. It’s like you read my mind.

I really hope people here will read what you said and consider it.

It is a betrayal. A betrayal of everything good about being a human being. A betrayal for the men who are ‘entertained’ by it, the women in it, and most of all to the women that are TRYING TO LOVE THEM. Betrayal. That is the perfect word for it.
 
It can create unrealistic expectations, but worse, it is a departure from the reality which is richer. It’s like the difference between having a terrific meal and, afterward, sitting in an easy chair, lighting a pipe (if one is into that) pouring a glass of dry sherry and reading the next chapter in a good novel versus gorging, vomiting, gorging, vomiting, etc…a miserable thing.
This is a good analogy.

I wonder though, if we can turn it around and look at it from a women’s point of view. I get that men are visual, and that smut is everywhere these days, and that it IS something that is very hard to conquer and that it has to be consciously and deliberately avoided.

But I don’t think men ‘get’ why it hurts us women so deeply when they succumb to it.

And, I think that is because they don’t understand what it is that we women love, admire, and need, from men. Men don’t get what makes us love them and want to give ourselves to them, and I don’t think they get how vulnerable we have to become to a man in order to be able to give ourselves in the way women are designed to…
 
This is a good analogy.

I wonder though, if we can turn it around and look at it from a women’s point of view. I get that men are visual, and that smut is everywhere these days, and that it IS something that is very hard to conquer and that it has to be consciously and deliberately avoided.

But I don’t think men ‘get’ why it hurts us women so deeply when they succumb to it.

And, I think that is because they don’t understand what it is that we women love, admire, and need, from men. Men don’t get what makes us love them and want to give ourselves to them, and I don’t think they get how vulnerable we have to become to a man in order to be able to give ourselves in the way women are designed to…
You are quite correct, men don’t know or realise how women “see” life.

Having to deal with young university students during their vacation work, I see the effect of testosterone on the behaviour of the males. These students have a higher level of sophistication and do have some degree of decorum, unlike many of the operators and apprentices who often tend to be less so. From seeing and realising that, I felt deep sympathy for women!

I have heard of, but not seen the play “Defending the Caveman” which shows the difference between male and female outlooks on life in a neanderthal setting. I believe it is quite humorous albeit accurate and look forward to seeing it (and learning) when the opportunity arises.

Now back to the actual subject of this thread:
Men see things very differently including porn.
It’s not a reflection on the wife or his love for her!
It is however against the tenets of our faith!

The husband must jettison his porn.
 
And, I think that is because they don’t understand what it is that we women love, admire, and need, from men. Men don’t get what makes us love them and want to give ourselves to them, and I don’t think they get how vulnerable we have to become to a man in order to be able to give ourselves in the way women are designed to…
To be fair, I think you are right to an extent, but I don’t think that necessarily makes it easier for those who struggle with it (NOT making excuses.)

Think there probably are a lot of men out there who have no idea what it does to women - especially because most of our society preaches that men and women are the same in their sex drives, and that women can have shallow sex the same way men can, which is a lie. But for those that do understand, or have some idea, it is still literally a battle that we must fight. Everyone who has posted about it being a removal from reality is absolutely right. But the draw is real. Its not “just” ugliness. The Devil never made up something of his own to tempt men with, all he can do is twist the works of the Creator. Its simply not the same as watching maggots devour meat. In pornography and in the motives of men who use it is still the deep and fundamental yearning for union - which is what makes it so powerful. If it were “just ugliness,” nobody would watch the stuff. Instead it is an abuse and distortion of the most basic and fundamental human longings. Nobody has at their core the desire to watch maggots. Everybody has at their core their desire for the marital union which is the image of Trinitarian love.

I’m not making excuses, just please pray for men who struggle with this, and try not to write them off (provided they at least acknowledge that its wrong). I think its important to reflect on what its really about, and really why it is appealing to men. There’s no question that the stuff is gross and degrading - but like every sin, it starts with a desire that is legitimate. What men need in order to overcome the stuff is recognize what their desires really are, and what their sexual urges really point toward - union with a spouse, not mere physical satisfaction.

I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember the original quote but C.S. Lewis (again) said it well: “For every man who bangs on the door of a brothel, is a man hoping that God will answer.”
 
To be fair, I think you are right to an extent, but I don’t think that necessarily makes it easier for those who struggle with it (NOT making excuses.)
Think there probably are a lot of men out there who have no idea what it does to women - especially because most of our society preaches that men and women are the same in their sex drives, and that women can have shallow sex the same way men can, which is a lie. But for those that do understand, or have some idea, it is still literally a battle that we must fight. Everyone who has posted about it being a removal from reality is absolutely right. But the draw is real. Its not “just” ugliness. The Devil never made up something of his own to tempt men with, all he can do is twist the works of the Creator. Its simply not the same as watching maggots devour meat. In pornography and in the motives of men who use it is still the deep and fundamental yearning for union - which is what makes it so powerful. If it were “just ugliness,” nobody would watch the stuff. Instead it is an abuse and distortion of the most basic and fundamental human longings. Nobody has at their core the desire to watch maggots. Everybody has at their core their desire for the marital union which is the image of Trinitarian love.
I’m not making excuses, just please pray for men who struggle with this, and try not to write them off (provided they at least acknowledge that its wrong). I think its important to reflect on what its really about, and really why it is appealing to men. There’s no question that the stuff is gross and degrading - but like every sin, it starts with a desire that is legitimate. What men need in order to overcome the stuff is recognize what their desires really are, and what their sexual urges really point toward - union with a spouse, not mere physical satisfaction.
I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember the original quote but C.S. Lewis (again) said it well: “For every man who bangs on the door of a brothel, is a man hoping that God will answer.”
James, with all due respect, I am asking that people try to see a woman’s perspective on this, specifically MY perspective since it is me who is dealing with the problem I originally posted. I have tried to post how it is from a woman’s perspective, and you are telling me “well, it’s not the same; that’s not how men see it.” I KNOW!!!🙂 BUT IT IS HOW WOMEN SEE IT!!! I am asking that you try to see it from a woman’s perspective. I am asking that you try to wrap your head around another person’s side of the same battle. Is that just way too difficult?

And, I resent the fact that everyone is telling me to pray, as if I don’t already. I do, and have been for as long as I can remember.

I get it. Men are visual. Men like to look at women. Men easily fall to lust full temptations. It’s a battle. Pray for them. Yes, I do moreso than you know.

I haven’t written anyone off. If I had, I wouldn’t even care to discuss this at all. I wouldn’t even be trying to have my perspective heard, or care if any man out there might see where I’m coming from. Please don’t write me off and my perspective simply because I am a woman.
 
Why would anyone find those monstrously out-of-porportion, painted people doing sickening things entertaining? It makes me physically ill and suffocated and feel like I’m faling in a dark airless cave just to think about those images so many years later…
This is a description that is so well written when it comes to the nauseating panic that many women feel when confronted with sexual distortion in the shape of pornography, the abuse of such by their beloved, or because of own or other’s sins against sexual purity.
 
shanny–regarding Truck, and the dating post from earlier–yes agreed. I admire him as well…but we don’t know the parameters, and I would like to believe that when we go to confession and make a good act of contrition, we are truly making a concerted effort to turn from sin–but that doesn’t mean it cannot reoccur…so, it might be difficult to say to one’s self…i will never do this particular sin again. What is possible is to say I will make a concerted effort to sin no more in this ‘xyz’ category.

Not knowing the details and how the priest couched it, it’s hard to say. But overall, I agree with what you said a few posts up.
 
James, with all due respect, I am asking that people try to see a woman’s perspective on this, specifically MY perspective since it is me who is dealing with the problem I originally posted. I have tried to post how it is from a woman’s perspective, and you are telling me “well, it’s not the same; that’s not how men see it.” I KNOW!!!🙂 BUT IT IS HOW WOMEN SEE IT!!! I am asking that you try to see it from a woman’s perspective. I am asking that you try to wrap your head around another person’s side of the same battle. Is that just way too difficult?

And, I resent the fact that everyone is telling me to pray, as if I don’t already. I do, and have been for as long as I can remember.

I get it. Men are visual. Men like to look at women. Men easily fall to lust full temptations. It’s a battle. Pray for them. Yes, I do moreso than you know.

I haven’t written anyone off. If I had, I wouldn’t even care to discuss this at all. I wouldn’t even be trying to have my perspective heard, or care if any man out there might see where I’m coming from. Please don’t write me off and my perspective simply because I am a woman.
shannyk - I want to really apologize if it came across as dismissing your opinion, that was not my intention at all. I absolutely think a woman’s perspective of this issue is crucial and vital to dealing with it - that’s kind of the whole point. Not only does it ensare men, it degrades women - not just the women in it, but every woman that man knows. And crucial to any man who struggles with this overcoming it is understanding what it does to the women in his life.

you wrote: "I have tried to post how it is from a woman’s perspective, and you are telling me “well, it’s not the same; that’s not how men see it.” That’s not what I was trying to say at all. If you want solidarity in your frustration that so many men use this garbage, you absolutely have my sympathy - as a man who once struggled with it. I hate the fact that its so normal, its the reason I was duped into looking at it in the first place. I also wanted to offer that there are men out there who DO understand. I understand, and quit the stuff years ago. And I was suggesting some of the things I went through in realizing that I needed to get away from it.

I just thought you were trying to understand what it is about this that draws men in; I offered some thoughts on the fact that its not “just ugliness.” It’s ugly, yes, but its not arbitrary filth. That was all. In order for men to understand what it does to women, and STOP, they also have to understand the purpose of their bodies and sexuality; otherwise its a lost cause. That’s why I offered those thoughts about how men see it. I’m sorry if it was somewhat off-topic.
 
shannyk - I want to really apologize if it came across as dismissing your opinion, that was not my intention at all. I absolutely think a woman’s perspective of this issue is crucial and vital to dealing with it - that’s kind of the whole point. Not only does it ensare men, it degrades women - not just the women in it, but every woman that man knows. And crucial to any man who struggles with this overcoming it is understanding what it does to the women in his life.
you wrote: "I have tried to post how it is from a woman’s perspective, and you are telling me “well, it’s not the same; that’s not how men see it.” That’s not what I was trying to say at all. If you want solidarity in your frustration that so many men use this garbage, you absolutely have my sympathy - as a man who once struggled with it. I hate the fact that its so normal, its the reason I was duped into looking at it in the first place. I also wanted to offer that there are men out there who DO understand. I understand, and quit the stuff years ago. And I was suggesting some of the things I went through in realizing that I needed to get away from it.
I just thought you were trying to understand what it is about this that draws men in; I offered some thoughts on the fact that its not “just ugliness.” It’s ugly, yes, but its not arbitrary filth. That was all. In order for men to understand what it does to women, and STOP, they also have to understand the purpose of their bodies and sexuality; otherwise its a lost cause. That’s why I offered those thoughts about how men see it. I’m sorry if it was somewhat off-topic.
James, I thank you kindly and sincerely for this reply. I’m sorry if I have come off as defensive, but I guess at this point that’s how I am feeling, not at you personally but in general.

You, and other men here have been open,honest, and real about this whole thing and I really do see and appreciate that. Thank you .
 
I’m not going to slam you. I am trying to understand, but it seems different.
I figured you wouldn’t, but sometimes it gets a bit sticky. (As I said this is in general.) It’s like saying don’t judge me, and that gets all mixed up with if one gives a critique of it. At times one tries to give a explanation, and it seems to come off as an excuse.

From the questions you ask, I’d say, you don’t want or need to know it that way. If you really want, you’d have to desensitize yourself to the point where you don’t mind doing that, then experience for yourself. I’d say, men some subtle but major temperament difference than women – even from a physiological stand point. Your not quite going to get a real idea, if you really want to know it in detail.

I’d say its a good idea if just make a clear distinction between how you feel about it, and an explanation of it. You can feel however you want to feel about it, that’s perfectly legitimate. Logically the important points to accept is the acts are wrong, and should not be done. If you feel disgusted by it, thank God for that grace. It may be a good thing to have compassion on the sinner too, for we all are. If a person is trying to say it is normal – especially as in the OP – you can rightfully say it is wrong.

I suppose I would say most of this post isn’t directed at you. In general though, lots of distinctions need to be made. As we know we aren’t really wanting to judge a person, but the sin. We ought to have compassion on the sinner, but not tell the sinner that the sin is not a sin.
 
And, I think that is because they don’t understand what it is that we women love, admire, and need, from men. Men don’t get what makes us love them and want to give ourselves to them, and I don’t think they get how vulnerable we have to become to a man in order to be able to give ourselves in the way women are designed to…
It’s a trap. The more a man feels he’s hurt his wife, I think the more likely he’d feel too ashamed of that love, and turns to an empty love to feel the need. Granted at the same time, it is high in-itself, so the tempation can easily be there.

To a point once one recognizes the situation, it may be better to step back, not wallow in the emotions, and take steps to bring that downward spiral undercontrol. You can feel however you feel. If your hurt you don’t have to deny that, but if you want the situation to improve you cannot focus on that. Likewise a man once understanding the situation, ought not sit back and feel bad for himself, but try to stop and reconnect with his wife.

From your OP sure you feel like a prude, so what. Your standing on sound ground. There is only so much you can do with the others, but at least with you SO you need to pick your battles. Is this battle worth fighting? Well, I am sure it completely lines up with a battle you ought to pick. There I think are plenty of resource to explain why it is wrong. Once established, if a fall happens, if you don’t control how much you express you are hurt you may just drive him away. You need to stand your ground for what is just, but still have mercy enough to be compassionate and encouraging to get back on the right path.
 
I know of at least one very good man who neither views pornography or visits strip clubs, and I’m married to him. 🙂

It sounds to me like you’re really hurt, and I completely understand. Before my conversion, I was in a relationship that was tainted with this poisonous material, and it nearly drove me off the deep end with depression and anger. May our Lord Jesus and our Blessed Mother bring you safely to the healing of your heart.

In Christ,

mary
 
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