A reasonable concept of hell

[billcu1]

I think this is a much more reasonable concept of heaven and hell. The philosophers here may be able to understand this but as Dionysius said all can’t understand these things. Generosity and giving is one of the things that draws me to the church. While frightening fear and superstition drives me away. Consider this. Especially ¶1.

buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm

 

[Heliotropium]

The Buddhist concept of heaven and hell is entirely different from that in other religions. Buddhists do not accept that these places are eternal. It is unreasonable to condemn a man to eternal hell for his human weakness but quite reasonable to give him every chance to develop himself. From the Buddhist point of view, those who go to hell can work themselves upward by making use of the merit that they had acquired previously. There are no locks on the gates of hell. Hell is a temporary place and there is no reason for those beings to suffer there forever

My good friend hell is the consequence of a person who freely chose to reject God and therefore never develop toward the end for which God created them. God does not condemn us for human weakness but for impenitence and obstinacy in sin, in short for wallowing in our own manure while claiming it to be Goodness itself, instead of using the innumerable graces God has given us to overcome our fallen natures and to have a union with Him who is Goodness, Truth, and Love itself.

I mean would you agree that hell is just for the person who says firmly and with all their heart, I will not change!? Why would you want to force heaven on those who do not want to be with God?

 

[billcu1]

My good friend hell is the consequence of a person who freely chose to reject God and therefore never develop toward the end for which God created them. God does not condemn us for human weakness but for impenitence and obstinacy in sin, in short for wallowing in our own manure while claiming it to be Goodness itself, instead of using the innumerable graces God has given us to overcome our fallen natures and to have a union with Him who is Goodness, Truth, and Love itself.

I mean would you agree that hell is just for the person who says firmly and with all their heart, I will not change!? Why would you want to force heaven on those who do not want to be with God?

I believe that with someone who says “I will not change” must be blinded by something that would increase culpability of some mortal sin. I don’t think someone who think’s that way is thinking sanely. They may need a dose of hell to straighten up. It’s not hell(s) that I don’t agree with or believe in it’s eternal damnation as most understand it. I don’t think there’s ever anyone who doesn’t develop toward God eventually. If we do wrong. God will make a way as he did at the cross.
Jesus prayed for “…as many as God has given to him.” So that will not be everybody. But when we fall God’s mercy endures forever and God will make a way. One we may not know about yet to save the demons.
PS There are buddhas in Hell(I forget their names) that are helping save the “most evil”. Our God is a loving God.

 

[Khalid]

Heresy of heresies, it’s Origenism!

 

[bzkoss236]

I believe that with someone who says “I will not change” must be blinded by something that would increase culpability of some mortal sin. I don’t think someone who think’s that way is thinking sanely. They may need a dose of hell to straighten up. It’s not hell(s) that I don’t agree with or believe in it’s eternal damnation as most understand it. I don’t think there’s ever anyone who doesn’t develop toward God eventually. If we do wrong. God will make a way as he did at the cross.
Jesus prayed for “…as many as God has given to him.” So that will not be everybody. But when we fall God’s mercy endures forever and God will make a way. One we may not know about yet to save the demons.
PS There are buddhas in Hell(I forget their names) that are helping save the “most evil”. Our God is a loving God.

Seeing as we can’t say who is in hell, I would at least say that those who are in hell are there of their own choosing and deserve to be there. You may need to read up on the teachings of purgatory, a “place” where those who are destined for heaven are purged of any uncleanliness remaining.

You also might have to consider that such an opinion of hell as depicted by the buddhists might play nicely with our emotions, but doesn’t necessarily make it true. Even if we have a hard time believing something, that doesn’t make it wrong. And as humans after the fall, we are flawed, and our understanding imperfect. So, just because something makes more sense to you, that doesn’t make it true. People make a lot of irrational decisions that seemed rational to them.

 

[TK421]

I believe that with someone who says “I will not change” must be blinded by something that would increase culpability of some mortal sin. I don’t think someone who think’s that way is thinking sanely. They may need a dose of hell to straighten up. It’s not hell(s) that I don’t agree with or believe in it’s eternal damnation as most understand it. I don’t think there’s ever anyone who doesn’t develop toward God eventually. If we do wrong. God will make a way as he did at the cross.
Jesus prayed for “…as many as God has given to him.” So that will not be everybody. But when we fall God’s mercy endures forever and God will make a way. One we may not know about yet to save the demons.
PS There are buddhas in Hell(I forget their names) that are helping save the “most evil”. Our God is a loving God.

You are looking at it from your own perspective, and so you ask yourself “How could anybody really be so obstinate as to not turn to God?”. This is, and perhaps will remain for eternity, a baffling and loathsome mystery to somebody that has chosen otherwise, and so because you cannot understand it personally, you must accept it within the logic of the faith.

Hell may be able to milk a person to beg. To shout “Let us in!”. But this is not change. It’s the inevitable consequence that comes from rejecting God, and it might be argued is actually a fruit of their own evil. A penitent person would be more prone to hang their head. They would not be so insolent as to ask questions such as “When did we see you hungry?”

 

[MarcusAndreas]

Your problem is approaching damnation as though it were an objective, posited state.

Damnation is neither.

Damnation is a subjective state:

The experience of damnation, “hell”, is perceived by the individual, and cannot be observed. Eternal separation from God should be understood as an interpersonal separation, “I never knew you”, rather than as an exclusion from God’s presence.

Damnation is a natural state:

The subjective experience of damnation is brought about through refusal to be human, thus when the person reaches its natural end, the eternal presence of God, it is experienced as torturous. God posits nothing on the person, God lets nature take its course.

God wills that all be saved, God’s will is always done, salvation is the experience of the presence of God, yet the wicked subject experiences it as torturous, and the righteous subject as satisfying. Thus solving the old question of universal salvation.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You are looking at it from your own perspective, and so you ask yourself “How could anybody really be so obstinate as to not turn to God?”. This is, and perhaps will remain for eternity, a baffling and loathsome mystery to somebody that has chosen otherwise, and so because you cannot understand it personally, you must accept it within the logic of the faith.

Hell may be able to milk a person to beg. To shout “Let us in!”. But this is not change. It’s the inevitable consequence that comes from rejecting God, and it might be argued is actually a fruit of their own evil. A penitent person would be more prone to hang their head. They would not be so insolent as to ask questions such as “When did we see you hungry?”

Lets take your last paragraph.

I’m going to look at it closer.

Hell may be able to milk a person to beg. To shout “Let us in”!
But this is not change.
It’s the inevitable consequence that comes from rejecting God, and it might be argued is actually a fruit of their own evil. A penitent person would be more prone to hang their head.

My question about what you have stated here mainly concerns but is not limited to your last sentence.

“A penitent person would be more prone to hang their head”.

I need you to explain if you mean they would hang their head in sorrow, or hang themselves.

You go on to talk about insolence in regard to how one would respond to those hungry.

You have lost me on both counts.

Do you think that those who do not accept belief in gods or your God to not be concerned about the hungry? Do you think the hungry are the only ones we ought to be concerned with? Those with cancer?

Have you given this careful thought or have you decided that belief in your God solves everything?

 

[bzkoss236]

Hell may be able to milk a person to beg. To shout “Let us in!”. But this is not change.

The way I learned about this in High School is that people in Hell don’t even want out. People in Hell have chosen to be there. They have chosen to be eternally separated from God. And being in an eternal state would mean that they won’t change their mind. It isn’t that they are “trapped” or “imprisoned” in Hell. They remain there eternally because that is their choice, and they won’t change their minds.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The way I learned about this in High School is that people in Hell don’t even want out. People in Hell have chosen to be there. They have chosen to be eternally separated from God. And being in an eternal state would mean that they won’t change their mind. It isn’t that they are “trapped” or “imprisoned” in Hell. They remain there eternally because that is their choice, and they won’t change their minds.

Sounded like a guy who never heard of Purgatory minimally. IMHO

 

[ClearWater]

I used to mix faiths and had a combination of several, taking elements of what I liked out of each, fitting them together. In the end, I think I had a mixture of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Catholicism to name a few!

Right now, I have come to the conclusion that I am Catholic, and I no longer turn to other faiths, books, and people for their answers. I have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

Although attractive and tempting, I no longer turn to Buddhism for answers. To me, it told me what I wanted to hear…that I could have an infinite number of existences, as many as were necessary to get it right. I could believe if there was a hell, it was, at worst, only temporary.

However, this goes against what has been revealed to us by Christ, the saints, and others, which came at a very high price.

We’re assuming God thinks like us, and he doesn’t.

As to hell, as unpopular as this might be to accept, it exists and is thoroughly real. It would be a tremendous disservice to try to deny, or diminish, its significance and reality in any way. People need to be warned of the danger so they can avoid it and go to heaven.
Is it a fear and superstition to warn people of a serious true threat?

 

[TK421]

@Strawberry:

I sometimes have the bad habit of making my posts overly concise. I apologize if my post was confusing.

My question about what you have stated here mainly concerns but is not limited to your last sentence.

“A penitent person would be more prone to hang their head”.

I need you to explain if you mean they would hang their head in sorrow, or hang themselves

I mean that the person would be sorrowful over their deeds, not that they would want to kill themselves. We belong to God and only God has the authority of life and death.

You go on to talk about insolence in regard to how one would respond to those hungry.

You have lost me on both counts.

Do you think that those who do not accept belief in gods or your God to not be concerned about the hungry? Do you think the hungry are the only ones we ought to be concerned with? Those with cancer?

The question I used was only an example, and it was a reference to a part of the gospels where Jesus is addressing the saved and the damned, and in the particular paragraph, he was noting the importance of charitable works. It doesn’t mean that the hungry are the only people we ought to be concerned about.

The gist of my statement is that a person that is sorrowful for their past deeds would not further provoke God by asking him “What did I ever do to you!?”, which is what we see happening in the particular passage where Jesus is prophetically speaking to the damned.

Have you given this careful thought or have you decided that belief in your God solves everything?

I’m sure there are plenty of people that have thought about it more than me, but yes, I’ve given it a good deal of thought. For most of my life I thought it would be impossible for me to ever accept the existence of an eternal Hell. That it was inconceivable. But that is behind me.

 

[bzkoss236]

Sounded like a guy who never heard of Purgatory minimally. IMHO

Me or the OP?

If Me:

Purgatory is not Hell, nor is it in Hell. Purgatory is merely a purging/purification process.

The suffering in Purgatory (or rather, the suffering experienced during Purgatory) is not the same as the suffering in Hell. Those going through Purgatory have the hope of reaching Heaven. In Hell, they do not have that hope, nor do they hope for Heaven.

 

[StrawberryJam]

@Strawberry:

I sometimes have the bad habit of making my posts overly concise. I apologize if my post was confusing.

I mean that the person would be sorrowful over their deeds, not that they would want to kill themselves. We belong to God and only God has the authority of life and death.

The question I used was only an example, and it was a reference to a part of the gospels where Jesus is addressing the saved and the damned, and in the particular paragraph, he was noting the importance of charitable works. It doesn’t mean that the hungry are the only people we ought to be concerned about.

The gist of my statement is that a person that is sorrowful for their past deeds would not further provoke God by asking him “What did I ever do to you!?”, which is what we see happening in the particular passage where Jesus is prophetically speaking to the damned.

I’m sure there are plenty of people that have thought about it more than me, but yes, I’ve given it a good deal of thought. For most of my life I thought it would be impossible for me to ever accept the existence of an eternal Hell. That it was inconceivable. But that is behind me.

Thank you for clarifying.
Can I ask you why someone who does not believe ought to be considered as someone who did not do works of charity?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Me or the OP?

If Me:

Purgatory is not Hell, nor is it in Hell. Purgatory is merely a purging/purification process.

The suffering in Purgatory (or rather, the suffering experienced during Purgatory) is not the same as the suffering in Hell. Those going through Purgatory have the hope of reaching Heaven. In Hell, they do not have that hope, nor do they hope for Heaven.

Thank you for that explaination, however I knew about Purgatory before I had pimples.

 

[TK421]

Thank you for clarifying.
Can I ask you why someone who does not believe ought to be considered as someone who did not do works of charity?

There is a lot more to the gospels than that single passage. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that people that feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. all automatically go to heaven. However, sustained disbelief is a grave matter, because it begs the question how such a person can obey the greatest commandment, which is to love the Lord with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and all strength.

God knows.

 

[StrawberryJam]

There is a lot more to the gospels than that single passage. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that people that feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. all automatically go to heaven. However, sustained disbelief is a grave matter, because it begs the question how such a person can obey the greatest commandment, which is to love the Lord with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and all strength.

God knows.

There must be more to the gospels I missed because I did not challenge you to come up with other ways all people do good that do not believe. In fact, all these things people of non belief do everyday.
Without the fear of damnation or eternal reward.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

At the core of this doubt about Hell is our humanity. We don’t want to think that people can be eternally condemend to Hell, for sins they committed in a relatively short earthly life.

Unfortunately there is nothing in the words of Christ that indicate Hell is temporary. Nor do I think it is subjective.

I’ve written ad infinitum that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. After an apology, a discussion and argument, he disappared, but not before giving this terrifying scream. And it was quite obvious that he could see something coming for him. I didn’t see it - just him. The scream was so frightening that I started to scream, and all I could see was him - nothing else.

It wasn’t a “subjective” experience - he was absolutely terrified. And it was crystal clear that something was coming for him.

Let’s consider what happens to a person who’s gone to Hell. They’re surrounded by an atmosphere of complete evil; absolute despair and the screams and tortures of the damned; decay and the grotesque images of demons and, i believe, the hideous condemned, since I believe they also lost their human image.

How are they going to repent? There would be nothing in their immediate surroundings to draw them on. And if they were to be plucked from Hell, would they then begin to repent? Or would they just go back to their rebellious attitude towards God, now they were released from their torture?

When Christ was going to drive the Legion of demons out of the possessed man, there was no sign they intended to repent, despite the fact they knew first hand the consequences. They preferred rebellion.

They just wanted to avoid going back to Hell, but knew also that at some time in the future, there was going to be a payback - “Have you come to torture us before the time?”

Purgatory however would be what might be called a “cleansiing fire”, but without the horrible atmosphere of hell. Compare for example a pure gas flame to the stench of a burning rubber dump (and I grew up near a factory that made rubber products, so I’m aware of that smell).

It wouldn’t be pleasant, especially in the lower stages (it could be almost heavenly in the upper stages), but it would not have the hopelessness of Hell. There would always be a sense of moving towards the beatific vision, however painful that might be.

I don’t like the thought of Hell. I don’t even like God much sometimes, as I think He can be very unfair. But I’m afraid I believe in the old fashioned concept of Hell - eternal, horrible, inescapable.

It’s a morbid subject, like discussing the death penalty. But I don’t think we should kid ourselves about its reality.

 

[Heliotropium]

I believe that with someone who says “I will not change” must be blinded by something that would increase culpability of some mortal sin. I don’t think someone who think’s that way is thinking sanely. They may need a dose of hell to straighten up.

Ah and this is the fallacy of the enlightenment that knowledge will automatically produce morality. If this was the case then educated people would be the most moral individuals in society but alas it is not the case my friend. Saying “someone just didn’t have enough knowledge which is why they did so and so” or that they were “not thinking sanely” denies many truths, one being free will and the other being God’s love and justice. You deny free will because you claim those with knowledge or who are thinking “sanely” could never oppose truth or reject it, then you deny God’s love with this belief by saying He therefore can be accused of not supplying sufficient knowledge for his creations to always make the correct choice, and you deny His justice by saying He would condemn a being tell hell for invincible ignorance.

It’s not hell(s) that I don’t agree with or believe in its eternal

damnation as most understand it. I don’t think there’s ever anyone who doesn’t develop toward God eventually. If we do wrong. God will make a way as he did at the cross.

Jesus prayed for “…as many as God has given to him.” .

In Scriptures there is called the “hardening of the heart” and this can be seen as the consequence of sin which is the rejection of God. For human beings this hardening can be slow and for others it can be quick. Regardless what is clear is once this hardening has been completed by the free choice of the individual, God then respects their choice.

"And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense"–Romans 1:28

Notice the scriptures say “as they liked not to have God in their knowledge”. Ask yourself how could a person not like to have God if they did not know God? They couldn’t, so what this means is the person knew God but rejected Him. Now let’s stop and remember who the Scriptures say hell was created for?

"Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"–Matthew 25:41

Angels unlike humans are purely spiritual beings. They’re pure intellect and pure will, and so there is no such thing as an ignorant angel or an angel who has not made up their mind. While humans on the other hand have to traverse the planes of knowledge (abcdefghigklmnopqrstuvwxyz) due to being created body and soul, the angel can go from (a,z) instantaneously. This means when the devil and the other angels rejected God they did so with their entire being. They knew God and all of His goodness and they flat out rejected it because they loved themselves more. They told God “Yes I know you created me and that you love me but I’m telling you there is no room in my heart for you!”

The spirit of the world would tell Joseph and our Blessed Mother who was carrying the Christ in her womb the same thing.

"And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn"-- Luke 2:7

How could there be no room in the inn for a pregnant woman and her husband? It’s because those in the inn did not want to make room for them. No one wanted to sacrifice for the love of neighbor. No one had the spirit of charity because they loved themselves more! God cannot entire a heart that makes no room for Him! Love cannot be forced on those who do not want it!

Hell is an eternal separation from God not because God does not want these souls close to Him but because hell is the Eternal Inn that says to God; THERE IS NO ROOM FOR YOU HERE! Their torment like all obstinate sinners who live today is that this choice of self-love over Divine love never fills them; it just drags them deeper and deeper into their own misery until that day comes when they take their own life just to escape themselves.

PS There are buddhas in Hell(I forget their names) that are helping save the “most evil”. Our God is a loving God.

Oh my friend our God loves but your Buddhist version of Hell does not acknowledge this. You expect Love to forgive those who do not want forgiveness. I wonder if you expect wives to keep forgiving their husbands when they cheat on them and tell them they have no intention of ever stopping. No the wives soon realize that no matter how much love they have or give their husbands there is nothing that can force their husbands to love them back and that even their very desire to forgive them has no affect if their husbands do want their forgiveness. But even worse would we have the audacity to look at such wives as not being loving enough because their husbands continue in such a state?

 

[Heliotropium]

Contin…

So is your Buddhist version of hell reasonable? Yes but only if:

· God is not Personal.
· God is not Love.
· God is not Just.

Which would result in the reality that;
· God does not exist
· Love does not exist
· Justice does not exist

God bless