A reasonable concept of hell

[Khalid]

Alas, we have been given the book of our future, and in it is written: “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. … Thou wilt say then unto me, ‘Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?’ Nay but, ‘O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”’”

 

[Bahman]

It appears your are arguing against a strawman. Sin is a deliberate act made with knowledge, not ignorance.

You mean that we have the knowledge of our own free will and can predict the outcome our decision before the point without return (when decision is firmly made).

 

[davidv]

You mean that we have the knowledge of our own free will and can predict the outcome our decision before the point without return (when decision is firmly made).

No, that is not what I mean.

1. we have knowledge of the immoral nature of the potential act
2. given 1. above, it is sin to choose commit the act.

Predicting the outcome in not required, nor is acknowledgement of freewill, as it is an intrinsic assumption in carrying out 2.

 

[Bwestrick]

The truth is, this life is a test. When its over, and we dont know when. Its a final position. No merits can be gained at this point. For now you see the truth! Now its easy to do the right thing. Or say the right words.

Kind of like a friend who will stick up for you and comfort you, when you’re around. But when you’re gone. That friend is throwing you under the bus… Does that friend truly love you?

The reality of an eternal hell is true. Christ warns us about this very specifically. He didnt mince his words.

The point is. This life shows how you would truly treat God if you had total and utter freewill. It shows who you really are towards, God the father. Hitler would turn from his ways instantly if he could see the Glory of God.

Remember the fallen angels… They are the silver spoon creatures. They were created and able to see God. They grew unappreciative after awhile and started to credit themselves. Then when God asked them to serve man. Some threw a fit. Mostly Lucifer, He wasnt going to serve a lesser being… He was there first! It was an unforgiveable sin to turn away from God knowing the fullness of God

We however are the poor banished children of eve. We are given so many oppurtunities in this life to come to love him and his ways. Even if we cant follow through completely. He sees if you are trying…

Those that have hardened their hearts and turned away from the Lord in their heart… Are in for trouble…

This life shows God exactly how you would be in his kingdom… They say you will be surprised at who is in hell and who is in heaven. I hope i’m not one of those surprises. But a sinner who is repententant… Think of the cross. Will come into the kingdom of God… Those that reject in this state of life, up until then end. Will not be let in

 

[InTheBeginning]

I believe that with someone who says “I will not change” must be blinded by something that would increase culpability of some mortal sin. I don’t think someone who think’s that way is thinking sanely. They may need a dose of hell to straighten up. It’s not hell(s) that I don’t agree with or believe in it’s eternal damnation as most understand it. I don’t think there’s ever anyone who doesn’t develop toward God eventually. If we do wrong. God will make a way as he did at the cross.
Jesus prayed for “…as many as God has given to him.” So that will not be everybody. But when we fall God’s mercy endures forever and God will make a way. One we may not know about yet to save the demons.
PS There are buddhas in Hell(I forget their names) that are helping save the “most evil”. Our God is a loving God.

God and His Kingdom exist eternally (outside of time). When we die we then enter into this existence and are literally “out of time” to change. How many times have you heard someone say “If only I had a little more time I could have…”? We’re given all the earthly time we need in order determine our eternal reward or suffering; some need more, others need less but God knows us better than we know ourselves and gives us all the time that is needed. For the people that value themselves over everyone else, including our Father in Heaven, there isn’t enough time for them to ever change (not even eternity squared to the millionth power) because they DON’T want to change. I don’t claim to know for certain what awaits us on the other side, but I’ll take Jesus at His word when He described the place of eternal fire and torture (Hell) that awaits those freely choose to go there. If beings can change their minds after death, how do you explain that the fallen angels haven’t decided to take the opportunity to do so? My belief is that although they may be capable of turning away from sin, they choose not to do so.

 

[Bwestrick]

I dont fully agree with the notion that we “choose to be in hell, once we’re in hell.” The notion that if one could truly be sorry after their condemnation. That it would stop. The notion that it is contingent on us, to remain in hell.

Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich man.

He clearly wants out! He pleads to Abraham and Lazarus for any temporary relief, namely water. He is actually sort of unselfish to the point, that he wants them to warn his loved ones.

But he knows he rejected God and his ways when it counted…

Being a sinner this scares me… For I feed the flesh, to get it to shut up. As you know, It only grows bigger and its annoyance intensifies with its growth.

I love the Lord, Im just torn by the fallen flesh…

I am a good thief. but a thief nonetheless. I definitely need to be saved.

Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think this is a much more reasonable concept of heaven and hell. The philosophers here may be able to understand this but as Dionysius said all can’t understand these things. Generosity and giving is one of the things that draws me to the church. While frightening fear and superstition drives me away. Consider this. Especially ¶1.

buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm

Um. Let’s see. You expect heaven and hell to be ‘reasonable’ (according to an obviously human idea of ‘reason’).

Just how reasonable was it for God to create a being with free will (according to the human idea of ‘reason’)?

Just how reasonable was it for God to care for beings who had sinned against Him (again, according to human ‘reason’?)

How reasonable was it for God to become a human being, grow, do nothing but good, and then suffer agonies, die, and rise again (according to human reason) so that humanity could actually enter heaven?

IOW, friend, it is rather unreasonable for humans to demand ‘reason’ on their terms from God. Why should we try to drag God down to our level?

 

[BOSS10L]

What if Earth is Hell, and we just don’t realize it?

 

[Bahman]

No, that is not what I mean.

1. we have knowledge of the immoral nature of the potential act

We don’t have the absolute knowledge of immoral nature. We developed the concept of immoral nature through the history.

1. given 1. above, it is sin to choose commit the act.

Predicting the outcome in not required, nor is acknowledgement of freewill, as it is an intrinsic assumption in carrying out 2.

I have a question for you then, why people perform sins in spite the fact that they know that they are sins?

 

[tonyrey]

What if Earth is Hell, and we just don’t realize it?

Heaven and Hell begin on Earth.

 

[Khalid]

Um. Let’s see. You expect heaven and hell to be ‘reasonable’ (according to an obviously human idea of ‘reason’).

Just how reasonable was it for God to create a being with free will (according to the human idea of ‘reason’)?

Just how reasonable was it for God to care for beings who had sinned against Him (again, according to human ‘reason’?)

How reasonable was it for God to become a human being, grow, do nothing but good, and then suffer agonies, die, and rise again (according to human reason) so that humanity could actually enter heaven?

IOW, friend, it is rather unreasonable for humans to demand ‘reason’ on their terms from God. Why should we try to drag God down to our level?

I believe that I have only once before, if ever, used the somewhat-tacky effect (when done in a forum post) of changing font size for emphasis. That being said,

AMEN!

 

[Khalid]

What if Earth is Hell, and we just don’t realize it?

We trust that it’s not because we trust the Bible is the Word of God, and distinguishes clearly between the two, and because according to its logic, the purpose of Hell would be mostly null if we could not remember why we were there (and, notwithstanding New Agers, few of us believe we remember our previous life). But, if we actually were in Hell, we could be convinced that the Bible was the word of God, even if it was the word of Satan (purely hypothetically, God forgive the imposture of such speech) to sow confusion amongst us Hell-dwellers, to convince us that we were indeed on earth and had a chance at either heaven or hell. In which case, Descartes’ Demon. (Linked to SEP. Read it if you don’t fully understand the concept of Descartes’ Demon.)

There are some things (all things, actually) that are theoretically (logically) possible, but of which the chance is so small that we must disregard it (“known unknowns”, in a sense) or of which the ramifications of its truth are so unable to be withstood as to make the very act of learning its truth an act of utter meaninglessness which abrogates the concept of truth or at least so empties the semantic content of the word “truth” as to make it meaningless. Cartesian epistemology, atheism and evolutionism, non-realist metaphysics, Humean epistemology, etc. are such according to the two criteria above, although each in differing measure. (Surprisingly, the “brain in a vat” is not according to both criteria: even if the chance of its truth is infinitesimal, if it were true, it would not eliminate the concepts of “meaning” and “truth” themselves.)

 

[davidv]

We don’t have the absolute knowledge of immoral nature.

So? Why is absolute knowledge required?

We developed the concept of immoral nature through the history.

Really? How do you know this? Adam was explicitly instructed on morality in the garden. The Israelites received written instructions on morality while wandering in the desert.
And, how is this relevant?

I have a question for you then, why people perform sins in spite the fact that they know that they are sins?

A very good question that everyone needs to answer for themselves. Why would you run a stop sign or drive faster than the posted speed limit?

 

[MicheleLMD]

We are not followers of buddha. This is Catholic Answers and we should all be followers of Jesus Christ. There is only ONE way to heaven. Jesus said we are either with him or against him. There may be kernels of truth in other religions but the full truth is in the Catholic Church. The further away you get from the Catholic Church and Her teachings, the further away you get from Truth. All other religions outside of the truth are being led away from truth by satan. So other Christian faiths are closer, Jewish teachings are next… but when you get to Buddha, you have strayed very far away.

Jesus himself told us that Hell exists. He did not sugar coat it because it is that awful. Many seers have had visions and report it is worse than anyone could ever imagine. People who have died and come back have reported the terror of Hell. So if another religion is trying to lessen the reality of Hell, ask yourself why. Because satan doesn’t want you to fear hell, he doesn’t want you to believe it exists. If it doesn’t exist then there is no consequence for sin. If there is no consequence for sin than why not do whatever you want? If my only punishment is I get a do-over, why would I not live my life doing whatever I want no matter how it offends God. Many people don’t understand, buddha is not just another name for God. This is a false theology. If you are Catholic, you must believe in the ONE TRUE GOD. The Holy Trinity. The first commandment is Thou shall not have any other god before Me. What part of that is not clear. No other god before Him. That includes buddha.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 13:30
Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

Luke 3:17
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

Even purgatory is scriptural. If we die with the stain of sin we may suffer purgatory. Which will cleanse us by fire and make us perfect so we can stand before God. God is perfect and cannot abide sin. Therefore, we must be sinless before we can be in His awesome presence. I think this is such a loving gesture to allow us this grace. God has given us so much and His punishments are just.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man’ s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

We need to pray for all the people who are being misled by false doctrines. This is truly sad. This is why Jesus suffered so terribly in the Garden of Gethsemane. He saw those who would be deceived by satan and lost to his wicked lies. I personally know 2 people who have witnessed a death where the person in their final moment screamed in terror at what was coming for them. Seriously, They both watched a person in the hospital who suddenly sat up and their eyes opened wide and they looked terrified and let out a blood curdling scream then fell back, dead. The Church teaches there is a hell. I trust my friends when they explain what they witnessed. Especially since these were loved ones. No one would make something like that up about a grandfather they loved or a dear friend. I stick to Catholic teaching.

 

[DavidWJackson]

A reasonable concept of hell. Eternal separation from God.

At Fatima when Lucia asked the Blessed Virgin Mary, who goes to hell? The Blessed Virgin Mary answered Lucia, only those who hate God go to hell.

 

[tonyrey]

A reasonable concept of hell. Eternal separation from God.

At Fatima when Lucia asked the Blessed Virgin Mary, who goes to hell? The Blessed Virgin Mary answered Lucia, only those who hate God go to hell.

Even those who don’t believe God exists - like Dawkins - hate the idea of God.

 

[Rodb]

The modern concept of hell was invented by Dante. Hell is not mentioned in the Bible. What is translated hell when spoken of by Jesus is Gahenna, a garabage dump outside of Jerusalem. In the old testament it is Sheol, an undefined abode of the dead. What is clear, is that there are degrees of punishment in the afterlife. In Matthew, when Jesus sent the disciples out, he said that “it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah” than for those towns that rejected them. Also in Psalm 139 the Psalmist seems to indicate that separation from God is impossible. Logic would indicate that it would be impossible to be separated from the presence of an omni-present God. Logic would also indicate that an eternal punishment for a temporal offense would be unjust, and God is not unjust. As for choosing eternal punishment, to do so, one would be either decieved, or insane, which negates any true descision making ability. I think a case could be made that the eternal lake of fire referred to in scripture, (fire associated with purification) is a place that exists in eternity as opposed to existing in time, and does not imply everlasting punishment. Count how many times in the Bible that it says “all” Israel will be saved. If some of Israel is in hell then this “all” is a lie. Also how many times does scripture say God"s mercy endures forever, not His mercy endures until you die and then turns into something else. Also it says every knee shall bow to God in worship, Are we to suppose that God, who has such respect for free will, suddenly forces worship after death, or does everyone, sooner or later, after a suitable time of punishment and cleansing, “see the light”, the truth of Jesus’ message, or does Satan and his lies triumph in the end.

 

[Bahman]

So? Why is absolute knowledge required?

It is required since otherwise we cannot know the consequence of our action when it comes to divine justice.

Really? How do you know this? Adam was explicitly instructed on morality in the garden. The Israelites received written instructions on morality while wandering in the desert.
And, how is this relevant?

If morality was taught to Adam and we are children of Adam then why there should be any need for further instruction.

A very good question that everyone needs to answer for themselves. Why would you run a stop sign or drive faster than the posted speed limit?

Maybe they are not just aware of consequence of their actions, what I highlighted as ignorance. Could we really one day overcome to our ignorance when it comes to absolute knowledge?

 

[Bahman]

I press the wrong bottom.

 

[tonyrey]

The modern concept of hell was invented by Dante. Hell is not mentioned in the Bible. What is translated hell when spoken of by Jesus is Gahenna, a garabage dump outside of Jerusalem. In the old testament it is Sheol, an undefined abode of the dead. What is clear, is that there are degrees of punishment in the afterlife. In Matthew, when Jesus sent the disciples out, he said that “it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah” than for those towns that rejected them. Also in Psalm 139 the Psalmist seems to indicate that separation from God is impossible. Logic would indicate that it would be impossible to be separated from the presence of an omni-present God. Logic would also indicate that an eternal punishment for a temporal offense would be unjust, and God is not unjust. As for choosing eternal punishment, to do so, one would be either decieved, or insane, which negates any true descision making ability. I think a case could be made that the eternal lake of fire referred to in scripture, (fire associated with purification) is a place that exists in eternity as opposed to existing in time, and does not imply everlasting punishment. Count how many times in the Bible that it says “all” Israel will be saved. If some of Israel is in hell then this “all” is a lie. Also how many times does scripture say God"s mercy endures forever, not His mercy endures until you die and then turns into something else. Also it says every knee shall bow to God in worship, Are we to suppose that God, who has such respect for free will, suddenly forces worship after death, or does everyone, sooner or later, after a suitable time of punishment and cleansing, “see the light”, the truth of Jesus’ message, or does Satan and his lies triumph in the end.

Genuine free will implies that a person is capable of rejecting God forever. There is plenty of evidence in this world that the lust for power can overcome all other considerations. The “splendid isolation” of hell is a self-imposed sacrifice but it has its compensations. Although total independence is an illusion it is an understandable temptation because to be in absolute control of one’s own destiny and answerable to no one but oneself must be a source of immense pleasure and satisfaction.