A Reformed perspective on sin, abortion and the election

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It’s yet one more article in the vein of “abortion is bad, but what about about these other things”, which have been coming out in droves recently. It’s almost like someone has an agenda.

I completely disagree on many points but especially this one:
I think it is baffling and presumptuous to assume that pro-abortion policies kill more people than a culture-saturating, pro-self pride. When a leader models self-absorbed, self-exalting boastfulness, he models the most deadly behavior in the world.
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Picture a world where one political party supports dismembering 3000 infants a day. They also support many things you like, but 3,000 times a day they kill newborns.

Should I give them my vote? For any reason?!

Absolutely not. But that’s literally the world we live in, if we believe there’s no difference between the born and unborn. The fact that the other party’s leader is a braggart is of no consequence.
 
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Thanks for reading and responding. Do you think this is a true statement (not a trick or leading question - up for discussion)?:

"When a leader models self-absorbed, self-exalting boastfulness, he models the most deadly behavior in the world. He points his nation to destruction. Destruction of more kinds than we can imagine.

It is naive to think that a man can be effectively pro-life and manifest consistently the character traits that lead to death — temporal and eternal."
 
TULIPed said:
"When a leader models self-absorbed, self-exalting boastfulness, he models the most deadly behavior in the world. He points his nation to destruction. Destruction of more kinds than we can imagine.

It is naive to think that a man can be effectively pro-life and manifest consistently the character traits that lead to death — temporal and eternal."
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On a factual ground its absolutely false. Abortion has now killed 40 million people in the United States. Whatever the effect of Trump’s boasting, he hasn’t killed 40 million people. He doesn’t kill 3000 people a day, or he’d be the most prolific serial killer in human history (he’d be around 4 million people since he took office). The idea that 48 years of abortion evils are equaled by one man’s flawed character isn’t credible.

Secondly, Trump’s bad influence on America can be undone. Other leaders - at any level, federal or even community leaders - can encourage people to act differently. And it’s not difficult - Mother Theresa just fed the poor on her street corner and gained worldwide adoration. Trump’s small influence is easily changeable; abortions are permanent.
 
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I tend to agree with your point. However, I wonder about the single issue vote (BTW - if you read the editors note, and the associated article from 1995, you’ll find that Piper was - apparently till this point - effectively a single issue voter regarding pro-life matters). Has all of American politics been reduced to a pro-life question? Is there no weight of conscience or matter that can offset this question?
 
TULIPed said:
Has all of American politics been reduced to a pro-life question? Is there no weight of conscience or matter that can offset this question?
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Roughly 1 million babies are killed each year through abortion in the US. By comparison, Hitler killed 11 million Jews and other minorities while he was in power (1933- May 1945), which also averages to about 1 million/year.

Would any of Hitler’s good ideas ever outweigh the Holocaust? Would you ever be convinced to vote for Adolf Hitler?
 
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Yes - but does not that argument cut both ways? What if Hitler was pro-life, but pro-Holocaust as well, and his opponent “pro-choice”, but against ethnic cleansing?

(I think this is precisely the idea behind the manner in which a Catholic can vote for a Democratic candidate, no?)

Said another way - can a pro-life candidate do anything or act in any manner as long as they fly the pro-life banner?
 
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Pro-holocaust is worse than pro-choice because, at least at this moment, the government is not forcing women to have abortions. If this pro-choice candidate was requiring abortions at the same rate as Hitler, then fleeing the country would most likely be best.
 
TULIPed said:
Yes - but does not that argument cut both ways? What if Hitler was pro-life, but pro-Holocaust as well, and his opponent “pro-choice”, but against ethnic cleansing?

(I think this is precisely the idea behind the manner in which a Catholic can vote for a Democratic candidate, no?)
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Luckily that’s not the situation here and it wasn’t the situation then either: “Pro-life” is not an ideology that Hitler would’ve ascribed to, because he obviously didn’t believe in the “sacredness of all life from conception until natural death.” And while Trump is pro-life, he is not pro-holocaust.
TULIPed said:
Said another way - can a pro-life candidate do anything or act in any manner as long as they fly the pro-life banner?
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No. But I don’t see them doing anything that comes close to encouraging the daily murder of 3000 people via dismemberment, so right now it’s a pretty clear choice for me.

I don’t mean to tell anyone how to vote, of course; we’re all able to make up our own conscience.
 
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Respectfully - and I ask this as a violently pro-life person (who tends to agree with all you’ve written) - why does the Catholic Church not support this position precisely.

I actually think Piper’s position is fairly close to the CC’s, no?
 
TULIPed said:
why does the Catholic Church not support this position precisely.
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I’m not Roman Catholic (I’m Orthodox) so unfortunately I don’t know enough about Catholic beliefs to give a good answer
 
TULIPed said:
I wonder about the single issue vote
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He obviously doesn’t recognize the Catholic idea of intrinsic evils. They can never be supported

It isn’t a single issue anymore

is it possible to vote in good conscience for the democrat policy on:

abortion, 50 million kids a year die worldwide , 60 million in the USA since RvW
SSM and the LGBT agenda,
euthanasia,
embryonic stem cell research,
transgenderism,
identity politics,
the destruction of the family,
contraception,
socialism,
breaking the seal of the confession,
federal funds to pay for abortions,
forced abortions in Catholic hospitals,
the selection of liberal judges who will uphold these policies,
the anti-family welfare system,
etc
 
Piper’s argument (I think) is that unrepentant sins - like promoting divisiveness for example - are intrinsically evil (at least according to the Bible) in that they - like abortion - lead to the same end.

(Not sure I agree, but I think that’s where he’s going.)
 
TULIPed said:
like promoting divisiveness for example
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But that is a concept. Fixing your own country isn’t divisive unless you don’t agree with the methods of the fix and that is a prudential judgment not an intrinsic evil
TULIPed said:
like abortion - lead to the same end.
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Wrong!

All social issues are false and illusory if life isn’t defended with maximum determination per ST. JP II

Abortion kills 50 million kids worldwide each year
Over 600,000 in the USA and this number will grow when Biden codifies abortion into law and we pay for it federally
 
upant said:
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TULIPed:
like abortion - lead to the same end.
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Wrong!
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Spiritually at least, Piper’s statement is correct. All unrepentant sin leads to eternal death (we can quibble about “venial” sins - but pride certainly isn’t one of them).
 
TULIPed said:
we can quibble about “venial” sins - but pride certainly isn’t one of them
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We should quibble about venial sin, it is church teaching

Do you see an individual’s sin on the same scale as 600,000 aborted babies? No, it is not a proportionate reason, the sinner can repent but you can’t bring back the dead babies

And don’t forget the rest of the intrinsic evils in the Democratic platform

Please give me a proportionate reason to overcome abortion, euthanasia, SSM, etc
 
TULIPed said:
Has all of American politics been reduced to a pro-life question? Is there no weight of conscience or matter that can offset this question?
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There is NOTHING that approaches neither the gravity of abortion nor the quantity of over 61 million children slaughtered in the womb since Roe.

Life is always the PREEMINENT issue, always. No other rights can even be considered if you are murdered in the womb.

God have mercy on this country that believes it’s fine to kill the innocent unborn,
Deacon Christopher
 
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