A Reformed perspective on sin, abortion and the election

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So what is your point?

IIRC, you pointed that people are running away from Christianity because DJT is a bad Christian.
What is the effect of JB being a bad Christian?

The fact is, our country has decayed to the point where these two candidates are our choices. Like it or not. There are no others.

A lot of people have to hold their nose to vote.
 
TULIPed said:
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goout:
It seems to me, as others have said, this line of thinking (in the article) is another manifestation of the moral numbness that is now incapable of being outraged at mass murder . And seeks to deflect the responsibility of that unbearable weight.
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I think one of the points the author makes is that “outrage at mass murder” requires a certain amount of baseline virtue (which I now see you mentioned). Said another way - our reactions to sin are indicative of where our hearts are. (I use the pronoun “our” to reflect the entire country.)

Is the counter argument that ends justify means - and the means become less relevant as the subject of the end becomes more important? The classic example of this was the manner in which Lincoln got the 14th amendment passed - which included, among other things, keeping the fact that the South was suing for peace from Congress.
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The fact is, you have two political parties. In my opinion both leaders have flawed character. One of them seems “nice” while the other is brash and offensive. Ok…

Only one of these parties officially tolerates and even promotes the killing of children.
Evil people do evil things all the time, but the fact that this just blurs right by us as part of an accepted political platform ought to scare the hell out of us. Our own indifference to barbarity is what ought to be shocking.
 
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Souls will never be won politically, but I agree that some of the praises are too much.
 
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Raxus said:
Weird hypotheticals like this have no basis of context within actual reality, and are a non-starter.
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Agreed, but sometimes it helps to use the extreme to make the point. Again - the reason I shared the article is that it seems to jive with “official” Catholic doctrine regarding this matter, i.e. one can use the entirety of a political position - inclusive of overall character I presume - to make and support a political choice. This in contrast to simply voting single issues. If it were a single issue matter - from a Catholic Church perspective at least - there would be only one way to vote, would there not? It would seem that the Catholic Church’s position is similar to Piper’s in this case, no?
 
Julius_Caesar said:
Or better yet: do not vote.
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That’s against Church teaching on the duties of citizens, as stated in the Catechism. In USA you could vote third party or write-in. I suppose you could also just skip the Presidential question and vote for all the other ballot issues. But you need to submit a ballot.
2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:
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bruisedreed said:
@ReaderT What do you think will happen to the rate of abortion if Trump is elected?

I agree with your outrage at the number of abortions, but you make it seem like a vote for Biden is a vote for that number, but that does not follow. I am not being combative, but trying sincerely to learn.

Do you think that the 61% of people in favor of legalizing abortion are going to stop wanting this if Trump is elected? Do you think they will disappear, or at least decrease in number? Do you think women will have fewer abortions? If yes, what reason do you have for any of these answers?

Again, I am quite confused on this topic and am not trying to strike up a fire at all. Thank you very much!
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You’re right that it’s not a straight causation, but I think our votes do matter, just as they did in the last election - which gave us 3 pro-life votes on the Supreme Court because Trump was elected and not Hillary Clinton. A pro-life administration will enact pro-life policies; the other side not only sees no problem with abortion but also wants to protect/entrench/expand the procedure.
As for the question “Do you think they will disappear, or at least decrease in number?”, I think the answer is yes if the administration doesn’t fund them and support them in our policies (e.g. the Mexico City Policy), and states don’t have to allow them until viability.
 
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bruisedreed said:
@ReaderT What do you think will happen to the rate of abortion if Trump is elected?

Do you think that the 61% of people in favor of legalizing abortion are going to stop wanting this if Trump is elected? Do you think they will disappear, or at least decrease in number? Do you think women will have fewer abortions? If yes, what reason do you have for any of these answers?

Again, I am quite confused on this topic and am not trying to strike up a fire at all. Thank you very much!
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You’re right that it’s not a straight causation, but I think our votes do matter, just as they did in the last election - which gave us 3 pro-life votes on the Supreme Court because Trump was elected and not Hillary Clinton. A pro-life administration will enact pro-life policies; the other side not only sees no problem with abortion but also wants to protect/solidify/expand its proliferation here.
As for the question “Do you think they will disappear, or at least decrease in number?”, I think the answer is yes if the country doesn’t fund them, support them in our policies (e.g. the Mexico City Policy), or allow them until viability in all states.
twf said:
This view doesn’t see, in my humble opinion, the big picture. What is the ultimate goal? To hold off the “Leftist agenda” for a few more years, or to save souls and convert hearts? It seems to me, whether they realize it or not, all the Trump supporting Christians are putting all their energy and all their hopes in the former scenario… let’s do everything possible to keep the Left at bay for four more years… and let all our secular Leftist leaning fellows be damned. By endorsing Trump, this blatant flagrant public sinner, as THE champion of the Christian Right, THE personification of the pro-life movement, THE Standard Bearer of all conservative values, the Right, and the pro-life movement, has shot itself in the foot. Sure, you might keep the Left at bay for a few more years… but you are winning NO souls. Zero. None. Zilch.
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If we’re trying to “save souls and convert hearts”, then we have to build a society where such a conversion can take place, i.e. where the Holy Spirit can work and where kids don’t have a road of stumbling blocks set in front of them.
Suffice it to say, I disagree that Joe Biden’s America would help do that. Look at Canada if you want to see a country that implemented all the social policies that Biden and his administration are considering. It’s not a Christian paradise. In fact they are prosecuting people for “misgendering” and required the Catholic Church to publically agree with their stance on abortion to receive government grants.

Trump’s not a saint. He’s said very ugly things. But Biden supports the continued killing of innocent infants, so whatever Trump’s personal flaws are, I still think Biden’s worse.
 
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You and I are in complete agreement. I need to go buy a lottery ticket.

Happy Halloween Gaius.
 
ReaderT said:
If we’re trying to “save souls and convert hearts”, then we have to build a society where such a conversion can take place, i.e. where the Holy Spirit can work and where kids don’t have a road of stumbling blocks set in front of them.
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One could make the argument that some how early Christians faced much worse and that level of persecution helped convert people in light of the early Christians endured that persecution.
ReaderT said:
Suffice it to say, I disagree that Joe Biden’s America would help do that. Look at Canada if you want to see a country that implemented all the social policies that Biden and his administration are considering. It’s not a Christian paradise. In fact they are prosecuting people for “misgendering” and required the Catholic Church to publically agree with their stance on abortion to receive government grants.
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The courts are slow so we’ll see what happens with that. But like it or not, if the public is apathetic, there’s not much we, and I live in Canada, can do about frivolous prosecutions for now. (Personally, I would reform the electoral system, not the judicial system, in order to prevent such things but that’s another topic).
And America might not fully head for the level of non-religiosity as us but it will be enough where voting won’t help you anymore. Sure, Trump could win one more term but after that, then what?

As for the grants, Trudeau’s gang mostly backed off from that.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
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All government then is a necessary evil (other than a theocracy)?

If one think it evil to vote for either then it is evil for them to do so. Let them pray more instead. Perhaps the prayer will cover the one who is free to vote, and the vote enough to cover the non voter.
 
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“Small islands not capable of protecting themselves, are the proper objects for kingdoms to take under their care; but there is something very absurd, in supposing a continent to be perpetually governed by an island.”…ThomasPaine. in efforts to win over loyalists to England to revolt/split.

Hard to believe but we were once divided over whether to split/ revolt from England or remain loyal. Our church pulpits were also split. They rang out, " No king but Jesus" or " “Obey those who govern over you”.

Same thing happened with slavery at first.

So nothing new under the sun today?

Read the article. I do cringe when Trump glorifies himself, like a Nebuchadnazzer on his rooftop. He did this when claiming He created the greatest economy ever earlier this year. Then Corona virus hit.

I like it it when he says “we” instead of I, and he often does.

I don’t think the article has correct hostorical perspective as Paines…yet for sure God hates a proud look, and such was the originator of the fall of some angels.

I believe the article is trying to appease critics of the church who support Trump, as if we condone his sin.

I don’t condone his sin. I am humbled by it . Reminds me of our faith heritage beginning only by the grace of God , thru twelve sons, who were quite “sinful”. I say to myself about Trump , “thru this man proceedeth righteousness?”…he is the least of these (potential political leaders) that I would have originally chosen in primaries, yet he has been faithful to many of the righteous causes. I am floored.
 
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