A refutation

[Brown10985]

How would I be able to refute the possibility that the nature of God can be both good and evil?

 

[squirt]

Brown10985:

How would I be able to refute the possibility that the nature of God can be both good and evil?

A couple of possible strategies would be (i) the standard scholastic lines of argument about the nature of God … Summa Contra Gentiles is a good place to look; and (ii) the Cartesian “is God a trickster?” angle from the meditations of Descartes.

 

[weunice]

My understanding of evil is that it is the privation of good and doesn’t exist of itself as a different entity (the opposite being akin to dualism?). God is infinately good and since there is no privation of in infinite goodness there can be no evil can exist within His nature. Of course that is my limited understanding. Maybe someone can take this idea home and clear up any nonsense I may have set forth. I am far from a philosopher or a theologian.

Time to pull out my Theology for Beginners.

Anyone?

 

[squirt]

weunice:

My understanding of evil is that it is the privation of good and doesn’t exist of itself as a different entity (the opposite being akin to dualism?). God is infinately good and since there is no privation of in infinite goodness there can be no evil can exist within His nature. Of course that is my limited understanding. Maybe someone can take this idea home and clear up any nonsense I may have set forth. I am far from a philosopher or a theologian.

Anyone?

Nice summary of the standard scholastic argument.

 

[Vincent]

If it is agreed that God is pure being–being itself, and that evil is a privation of being, then to predicate evil of God is a contradiction. I might as well say that there are such things as four-sided triangles.

 

[Brown10985]

I think I may be asking for a refutation of pantheism but I’m not even sure even what I’m asking. I guess I’m asking how it can be proved that God is a purely infinite good being.

 

[metal1633]

Brown10985:

I think I may be asking for a refutation of pantheism but I’m not even sure even what I’m asking. I guess I’m asking how it can be proved that God is a purely infinite good being.

newadvent.org/summa/100600.htm

 

[JimG]

To me it seems self-evident that God cannot be both good and evil (even if evil is taken as an actuality rather than as a privation.)

If pantheism is true (everything is God), then it would seem that God has a whole lot of parts, as well as being extended in space and time. That would mean that he can be taken apart, and is contingent and changeable, and thus not God.

JimG

 

[francisca]

It is written in book of Genesis that God created light on the first day, then separate it from darkness. It means that God NEVER created darkness. And because God never created it, darkness does NOT exist (because never created by God).

Genesis 1:3-4
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Then God created all the rest of His creations in this Light. Apostle John then said that God is light :

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

And John also tell us that all things exists only in God :

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

So here we know that all that exist must exist in God & His Light. Later we know that darkness enter from Adam’s choice : Adam chose to belive in lie (nothingness, darkness, in opposition against God).

All things that in opposition to this God and His Light does not exist, or at least it’s existance will not prevail, because it is written that all those in opposition with God shall be condemn to mortality (its existance is temporal, not everlasting, untrue).

So now we know that we have God who is all good… we know this because Jesus came to tell us about this: That God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him.

And not only that Jesus teach us that God is all-good, but also He gives us a prove that He is FAITHFULL unto death for our salvation.

Jesus teach us that God is our ‘defender’, our ‘counsel’, our ‘refuge’. Jesus tells us that God does not accuse us. The accuser is God’s enemy: our sins. God who is all-good DEFENDS us from accusations.

This is one of the most important thing that we must BELEIVE about our God.

I has to often tell it to myself over and over again, everytime the world try to rob this from me.

To believe in God is to know His Faithfulness!

God bless.

 

[Adam_D]

Brown10985:

I think I may be asking for a refutation of pantheism but I’m not even sure even what I’m asking. I guess I’m asking how it can be proved that God is a purely infinite good being.

Ravi Zacharias, though not a Catholic, is a great Christian apologist. He grew up in India (he has a cool accent for it) and is very well acquainted with Hinduism and pantheism. He talks about how Christianity stacks up against it in his talk “Jesus Among Other Gods” which can be downloaded from his web site in two parts.
His web site is here: gospelcom.net/rzim/index.php

and this page will bring you to the relevant radio program: Audio Programs

 

[RobedWithLight]

weunice:

My understanding of evil is that it is the privation of good and doesn’t exist of itself as a different entity (the opposite being akin to dualism?). God is infinately good and since there is no privation of in infinite goodness there can be no evil can exist within His nature. Of course that is my limited understanding. Maybe someone can take this idea home and clear up any nonsense I may have set forth. I am far from a philosopher or a theologian.

Time to pull out my Theology for Beginners.

Anyone?

You are right.

Evil is a lack or defect, and hence cannot or is not the equal of good. And since God has all the attributes of perfection, therefore there is nothing lacking in Him (no defect), He is therefore absolute goodness.

For instance, if there is a house that lacks a window, the house as a whole is good (and is intended for something good, as a habitation for a family). The house can exist even if it lacks a window, but the “act of lacking” a window cannot exist apart from the house.

If the house was complete, then it is absolutely good.

Hence a good can exist without evil(defect or lack). But evil in itself (a defect or lack) cannot exist apart from something else.

To propose that there is evil in God is to propose that God is less than perfect. If God is less than perfect, then He isn’t God.

Gerry

 

[trogiah]

Brown10985:

I think I may be asking for a refutation of pantheism but I’m not even sure even what I’m asking. I guess I’m asking how it can be proved that God is a purely infinite good being.

How about this for an approach.

God is the name we give to the Creator of all things including people with all their peculiarities.

The greatest commandment tells us to Love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Part (if not all) of keeping this commandment is done by accepting the goodness of God and all God’s creation.

The infinite goodness of God is not something we “prove.” It is something we strive to accept every moment of every day as we strive to keep the greatest commandment.

consider the following scripture from Deuteronomy:

39
“Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue.”

When life deals us wounds, and even death, no abstract “proof” will be able to keep our trust in God, There will simply be our determination to accept what is, and to continue to seek God’s kingdom as best we can.

-Jim

 

[francisca]

trogiah:

How about this for an approach.

God is the name we give to the Creator of all things including people with all their peculiarities.

Does this ‘peculiarities’ means non-goodness?

The greatest commandment tells us to Love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Part (if not all) of keeping this commandment is done by accepting the goodness of God and all God’s creation.

This is the old testament. The new testament says : We love because God has loved us first.

1 John 4:19
We love, because He first loved us.

Therefore Jesus said :

John 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

We love because God has loved us first.

Furthermore Apostle John wrote that “It’s not us who loved God, but…”

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The infinite goodness of God is not something we “prove.” It is something we strive to accept every moment of every day as we strive to keep the greatest commandment.

“Strive to accept” is not the fullness of God’s plan of our salvation.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

The old covenant: we were commanded by the Law to love God (so we love Him because we fear the Law, so that we “strive”),
later Jesus teaches us that, actually, God loves us, and that His love casts away all fears and the punishments.

consider the following scripture from Deuteronomy:

39
“Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue.”

When life deals us wounds, and even death, no abstract “proof” will be able to keep our trust in God, There will simply be our determination to accept what is, and to continue to seek God’s kingdom as best we can.

-Jim

Yes may be it is good teaching to accept what is “good and bad from God” (just like the story of Job), since we are still living in a sinful world. I’m only stressing that after Jesus’s coming, we now know that God does not will evil. That by Jesus’s coming, the light of God is coming into the world again.

1 John 2:8
On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

God bless

 

[Juxtaposer]

I think I’d define evil as anything that contradicts God, and good as being all that is of God. By those definitions it’s easy to see that God can’t be evil.

 

[Brown10985]

Can someone please tell me a proof for why God’s nature can only be of perfect goodness and not a perfect good and evil mix?

 

[AnAtheist]

francisca:

It is written in book of Genesis that God created light on the first day, then separate it from darkness. It means that God NEVER created darkness. And because God never created it, darkness does NOT exist (because never created by God).

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.

What now?

 

[francisca]

AnAtheist:

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.

What now?

Ok, what is non-existance?
Isn’t it “The absence of existance” ?

Suppose nothing exists at all.
Does this mean non-existance exists?

--------> Non-existance exists only in result of existance.

because non-existance is always “an absence” of “something”.
Therefore non-existance is only an implication of existance.

--------> Existance creates non-existance.

If we read verse by verse sometimes it is not quite clear. But in bigger picture of the bible, both old testament and new, it is discribed that “light, life, goodness, righteousness, eternity” belongs to God, and “darkness, death, unrighteousness, mortality” belongs to sin/ God’s enemy/ anything in opposition with God. It is all over the bible, very clearly separated. However, some verses indicate this separation more clearly than other verses.

Example :

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life ,
And in its pathway there is no death .

Less explicit verses sometimes shows that God/ “Godly attribute” saves one from death/ it’s destructive attribute, example :

Proverbs 11:19
He who is steadfast in righteousness will attain to life,
And he who pursues evil will bring about his own death.

Psalms 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.

Kol. 1:13 Ia telah melepaskan kita dari kuasa kegelapan dan memindahkan kita ke dalam Kerajaan Anak-Nya yang kekasih;

Psalms 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.

Proverbs 6:23-24
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light ;
And reproofs for discipline are the way of life
To keep you from the evil woman,
From the smooth tongue of the adulteress.

 

[AnAtheist]

francisca:

Ok, what is non-existance?
Isn’t it “The absence of existance” ?

Does the creation of “something” along with the allowance its absence not imply the creation of “not-something”?

Someone, who creates light and allowes instances where light is not present (i.e. darkness), implicitly creates darkness as well.

 

[francisca]

AnAtheist:

Does the creation of “something” along with the allowance its absence not imply the creation of “not-something”?

Someone, who creates light and allowes instances where light is not present (i.e. darkness), implicitly creates darkness as well.

One thing for sure, that darkness was separated from Light, and that God never intend “nothingness” comes into our life.

God of Existance reveal Himself to Moses :

Exodus 3:13
Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ "

The word I AM there in Aramaic/Hebrew means superfluously exists and forever exists. So God is super super existance, and this way God makes all things into being. But darkness is the opposite, and God who is superfluously exists does not will it.

God who created us want us to exist forever with Him. But man chose to have faith in nothingness. This nothingness cannot live in God’s Light (because there is no life in nothingness).

Jesus said :

John 3

19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

John 1:4
In Him was life , and the life was the Light of men.

John 8:12
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life .”

John 12:46
"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

God bless.

 

[ricatholic]

This a very interesting question regarding God and evil, surely it is one of those questions that finds an answer at the end of a long string of consquences of other actions or at the terminus of the extension of ideas.

For instance, if God created everything, how could He not create evil, if evil exists? And if evil doesn’t actually exist, why do we ask Him to deliver us from evil?

If Satan (or Lucifer) is evil what did God do differently with the fallen angels that would make evil actions a consequence of their thought processes and not a consequence of the thought processes of the good angels? (remember if you say God gave them free will,and evil doing is a choice, then you are saying that God enables evil ).

Even the arguement that evil is a non existing negative is false, by definition if something doesn’t exist it can’t be, something that isn’t, can’t even be compared to something that exists.

And the converse of that concept is thought provoking. How do we know “goodness” exists if the comparison is to something that doesn’t exist? Would we know preserving life as good, if there were no instances of disregard for life?

I would suspect that the real issue here regards the reality of our concept of God, Her eternal existence, His present constitution and It’s concept of us.

Unfortunately we as catholics are locked into some concepts that were formulated thousands of years ago by people dwelling in the desert who had a limited concept of humanity, never mind the scope and makeup of the creator.

As a result we have the God created everything concept, but then we make it like the store advertisement saying everything is on sale, except for items in our evil department and collections by Louis Cypher .

So the issue really isn’t how we somehow justify evil as not being created by God, but yet still considered a real threat, but what did God want us to become.

Trying to define the origin of evil is both hopeless and of no benefit. It is short sighted , defining the origin of evil serves no purpose, but it does have the opportunity cost of preventing us from doing good with the time we waste thinking about it.

Besides, if we know the origin of evil, does it help us in any way to live as Jesus taught?

Peace