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SolaScriptura
Guest
I consider the source when charges like these are made.
You may question me, but you sure don’t give much of any answers.
- Status
M
maurin
Guest
sola Scriptura: the maker of light. not Light Himself.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
I don’t remember using the phrase in multiple threads, but maybe you can make an argument for why you don’t think so based on the context of how I used it. You are good for asserting things, but offer very little in the form of arguments.
Being that John 6 never mentions wine I don’t know what you are talking about. Was this a mistake or have you not read it?
Well, if you know anything about the Reformation you would know that they didn’t deny the “Real Presence”, but what they denied was a physical presence of Christ’s body.
It was not a few, but many if not more ECF denied Rome’s view of the bread and wine being turned into the body and blood then accepted it. However, to list what Rome believes about verse is not an “interpretational guide”, it is just Rome’s interpreation.
But why is debate needed? Doesn’t the interpretational guide causes everyone to agree? If not how is it different or superior then the debate that takes place amongst Protestants? [sign]glaring double standard[/sign].
It is only heresy, schism, or apostasy from Rome’s view, but on the other side you are guilty of the heresy, schism, or apostasy.
OK, explain how one’s development of understand goes from the Pope can err to the the Pope cannot err or Mary committed sin to Mary never committed sin.
You have no clue as to how I view the Bible, because you never asked. You are just parroting Talking Points.
This make no logical sense.
It is not my arguments against them, but my arguments against you. I’m sure they would make much better argument, but in your case it is mostly argument by assertion.
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SolaScriptura
Guest
You are too deep for me maurin. Thanks for the conversation.
H
hoosierdaddy
Guest
"The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. (Proverbs 18:17)
Signed,
Martin Luther and the Reformation Posse
Signed,
Martin Luther and the Reformation Posse
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
I’m pretty sure he was considering the source.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Okay…from the Word of God…
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND THE POPE
Principle #1: Jesus founded one Church
Jesus founded one, and only one, Church – not a bunch of “churches”.
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (Mt.16:18)
Notice that Jesus did not say, “and on this rock I will build what I must call my loosely-affiliated network of non-denominational fellowships.” He said, “I will build my church.” Each word of that little phrase is packed with implication.
Principle #2: Jesus established a Church that has authority
People need to know truth in order to be set free from sin, to be saved and to reach heaven.
“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32)
We must learn the truth in order to be freed from bondage to sin. But what truth can do this?
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (John 14:6)
Jesus alone is the truth that can free us from death to sin. Not just any truth will do.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.” (John 18:37)
From this, we see that God the Father has sent Jesus into the world to testify to the truth. Where do Christians go to find the truth? Well, what is the pillar and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? No! It is the Church. Paul wrote:
Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, f I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)
In order for the Church to fulfill its function as the pillar and foundation of the truth, the Church must have authority with which to speak to and teach those who are seeking truth. How can we be sure that the Church has this authority?
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 18:15-18)
Jesus tells you to take your unresolved disputes to the Church as the last “court of appeal” for disciplinary matters. He does not tell you or your brother to consult the Bible to determine what should be done; the Church is the final arbiter. If anyone refuses to listen to the Church, there is no further appeal; he is to be thrown out. Why does the Church have this final say? Because Jesus told the Apostles that “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
If the Church is to speak with any effectiveness at all to the world about the truth on matters of faith and morals (not astronomy, biology or economics, etc.), then it must be able to do so with authority. Therefore, Jesus established a Church that can teach authoritatively regarding these truths.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
How can the world find the Church unless they can see it?
Principle #3: Jesus established a visible Church
For many non-Catholics, the “church” is an invisible entity made up of all “true believers” regardless of their denomination or doctrinal beliefs. These non-Catholic denominations are not the Church; they are simply congregations of people who come together for worship and fellowship. This “invisible Church” cannot act with any real authority because it cannot make decisions on faith and morals in the visible world nor can it lead others into all truth because in order to have any unity at all, these believers must strip their faith down to the bare minimum that everyone can agree on. While this may give everyone involved a warm, fuzzy feeling of unity while holding hands around a campfire singing “Kumbaya”, it is clearly not the fullness of the gospel proclaimed by Jesus Christ. People who do not know Christ need to hear the truth from an authoritative source and are hindered in coming to salvation if they cannot see and find an invisible Church.
The Church, therefore, must have a visible body. For the Catholic, the Church is both visible and invisible. In the passage quoted from Matthew above, the Church must be visible if anyone is to take their disputes to it. We know the Church is the Body and fullness of Christ, and Christ is its Head. As Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Ephesians 1:22-23)
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. (Eph 5:23)
Just as Jesus has a body and spirit – that is, both physical and spiritual aspects, so too His Body, the Church, has both physical and spiritual elements.
Principle #3: Jesus established a visible Church
For many non-Catholics, the “church” is an invisible entity made up of all “true believers” regardless of their denomination or doctrinal beliefs. These non-Catholic denominations are not the Church; they are simply congregations of people who come together for worship and fellowship. This “invisible Church” cannot act with any real authority because it cannot make decisions on faith and morals in the visible world nor can it lead others into all truth because in order to have any unity at all, these believers must strip their faith down to the bare minimum that everyone can agree on. While this may give everyone involved a warm, fuzzy feeling of unity while holding hands around a campfire singing “Kumbaya”, it is clearly not the fullness of the gospel proclaimed by Jesus Christ. People who do not know Christ need to hear the truth from an authoritative source and are hindered in coming to salvation if they cannot see and find an invisible Church.
The Church, therefore, must have a visible body. For the Catholic, the Church is both visible and invisible. In the passage quoted from Matthew above, the Church must be visible if anyone is to take their disputes to it. We know the Church is the Body and fullness of Christ, and Christ is its Head. As Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Ephesians 1:22-23)
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. (Eph 5:23)
Just as Jesus has a body and spirit – that is, both physical and spiritual aspects, so too His Body, the Church, has both physical and spiritual elements.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Principle #4: Jesus desires doctrinal unity
Jesus desires and prayed for unity within the Church. First, He prayed for unity among his own disciples:
“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.” (John 17:11)
Then He prayed for those who would hear the Church when it spoke on matters of faith and morals:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” (John 17:20-23)
Just as Jesus and the Father are perfectly united, so God desires for the Apostles and those who come to believe in Jesus through them to be united. The reason for this unity is clear: to let the world know that you sent me”. Without this unity, the witness of the Christian Church to the world is weakened and as a result, the souls who fail to recognize the truth may be lost. Thus, the world must be able to see the unity of an visible, authoritative Church and hear the truth it proclaims. What are signs of this unity that the world should see?
One of the signs must be doctrinal unity on matters of faith and morals. In the pages of Scripture, we read:
“All the believers were one in heart and mind.” (Acts 4:32)
“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:4-6)
“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.” (John 17:11)
The Father desires that the Church should be of one mind regarding the faith and doctrinal matters such as the “one baptism” just as He and the Son are one. The Father and the Son do not disagree on any issue. Does the Father prefer infant baptism while the Son does not? In the same way, we should have no divisions, no denominations, that separate us from one another. Paul’s appeal is not about some idealistic, invisible unity but a real, visible, tangible unity.
Jesus desires and prayed for unity within the Church. First, He prayed for unity among his own disciples:
“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.” (John 17:11)
Then He prayed for those who would hear the Church when it spoke on matters of faith and morals:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” (John 17:20-23)
Just as Jesus and the Father are perfectly united, so God desires for the Apostles and those who come to believe in Jesus through them to be united. The reason for this unity is clear: to let the world know that you sent me”. Without this unity, the witness of the Christian Church to the world is weakened and as a result, the souls who fail to recognize the truth may be lost. Thus, the world must be able to see the unity of an visible, authoritative Church and hear the truth it proclaims. What are signs of this unity that the world should see?
One of the signs must be doctrinal unity on matters of faith and morals. In the pages of Scripture, we read:
“All the believers were one in heart and mind.” (Acts 4:32)
“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:4-6)
“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.” (John 17:11)
The Father desires that the Church should be of one mind regarding the faith and doctrinal matters such as the “one baptism” just as He and the Son are one. The Father and the Son do not disagree on any issue. Does the Father prefer infant baptism while the Son does not? In the same way, we should have no divisions, no denominations, that separate us from one another. Paul’s appeal is not about some idealistic, invisible unity but a real, visible, tangible unity.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Principle #5: The Authority of the Church is Apostolic Authority
The Church’s authority is unique in that it is derived from the authority of the Apostles themselves. Apostolic Authority flows from the Authority of Jesus and the Father.
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-19)
“Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ “ (John 20:21)
From this, we can see that God the Father has given all authority to God the Son who in turn bestows this authority upon His own disciples and sends them out to preach the truth to all the world. Thus, we can see that the Apostolic Authority of the Church is God-given. But how closely should the Church be identified with Christ? Jesus Himself specified how we should receive those sent by Christ:
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)
The Church’s authority is unique in that it is derived from the authority of the Apostles themselves. Apostolic Authority flows from the Authority of Jesus and the Father.
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-19)
“Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ “ (John 20:21)
From this, we can see that God the Father has given all authority to God the Son who in turn bestows this authority upon His own disciples and sends them out to preach the truth to all the world. Thus, we can see that the Apostolic Authority of the Church is God-given. But how closely should the Church be identified with Christ? Jesus Himself specified how we should receive those sent by Christ:
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Lk 10:16)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Principle #6: The Church of Jesus is Infallible
If we hear Jesus when we hear His Apostles, then we can be sure that the Apostles are speaking the truth. However, there are even more scriptural reasons for us to be confident that the Church founded by Christ is prevented from teaching anything that conflicts with the truth. Taking a second look at the verses quoted from Matthew 28 above:
“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ “(Matthew 28:18-19)
Focusing on the last phrase, we can see that Jesus has promised that He will remain with the Church “always, to the end of the age.” With Jesus remaining with her always, how can the Church go wrong when teaching the truth about Christ Himself? But there’s more:
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
Jesus promises to send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to remain with the Church forever, to teach her leaders all things and to remind them of everything Jesus had taught them. It is this sure guidance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. But do we really need someone to teach us the truth or can we pick up the Bible and interpret it correctly for ourselves?
“Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians] reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.” (Acts 8:30-31)
In this passage, the Ethiopian Eunuch, an important and educated official of the Ethiopian government, is reading the
book of Isaiah, but he cannot understand what the prophet is saying. He asks, Philip, one of the Apostles and leaders of the early Church, to teach him the truths found in the passages before him. Like the Ethiopian official, we also need clear explanation of the proper meaning of the Bible, and the Church provides that in its role as teacher of the truth. Was this a one-time incident that only involved single person who did not know of the events that had been happening in Jerusalem? Well, Peter spoke further regarding private interpretation of scripture:
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20 NIV)
This quotation actually contains one of the most obvious examples of the bias found in the New International Version because the translators chose the words “ the prophet’s” to deflect the focus away from the implications that we cannot interpret scripture properly apart from an infallible Church. This is seen clearly in a more accurate translation reads:
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation” (1 Peter 1:20 RSV – Catholic Edition)
If we hear Jesus when we hear His Apostles, then we can be sure that the Apostles are speaking the truth. However, there are even more scriptural reasons for us to be confident that the Church founded by Christ is prevented from teaching anything that conflicts with the truth. Taking a second look at the verses quoted from Matthew 28 above:
“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ “(Matthew 28:18-19)
Focusing on the last phrase, we can see that Jesus has promised that He will remain with the Church “always, to the end of the age.” With Jesus remaining with her always, how can the Church go wrong when teaching the truth about Christ Himself? But there’s more:
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
Jesus promises to send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to remain with the Church forever, to teach her leaders all things and to remind them of everything Jesus had taught them. It is this sure guidance of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. But do we really need someone to teach us the truth or can we pick up the Bible and interpret it correctly for ourselves?
“Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians] reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.” (Acts 8:30-31)
In this passage, the Ethiopian Eunuch, an important and educated official of the Ethiopian government, is reading the
book of Isaiah, but he cannot understand what the prophet is saying. He asks, Philip, one of the Apostles and leaders of the early Church, to teach him the truths found in the passages before him. Like the Ethiopian official, we also need clear explanation of the proper meaning of the Bible, and the Church provides that in its role as teacher of the truth. Was this a one-time incident that only involved single person who did not know of the events that had been happening in Jerusalem? Well, Peter spoke further regarding private interpretation of scripture:
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20 NIV)
This quotation actually contains one of the most obvious examples of the bias found in the New International Version because the translators chose the words “ the prophet’s” to deflect the focus away from the implications that we cannot interpret scripture properly apart from an infallible Church. This is seen clearly in a more accurate translation reads:
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation” (1 Peter 1:20 RSV – Catholic Edition)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Peter gives additional warning about misinterpretation of scripture in his second general letter when he wrote:
“Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-17)
If the scriptures are difficult to understand and subject to misinterpretation, how could anyone understand the truth that Jesus wants everyone to receive? Echoing the words of Jesus, the Apostle John wrote:
“We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us.” 1 John 4:6
From this, we can see that there was a group of men who could be listened to with confidence. Peter also spoke of these reliable witnesses who spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit when he wrote:
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. (1 Peter 1:12)
“Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-17)
If the scriptures are difficult to understand and subject to misinterpretation, how could anyone understand the truth that Jesus wants everyone to receive? Echoing the words of Jesus, the Apostle John wrote:
“We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us.” 1 John 4:6
From this, we can see that there was a group of men who could be listened to with confidence. Peter also spoke of these reliable witnesses who spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit when he wrote:
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. (1 Peter 1:12)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Everything to this point has been designed to bring you to an understanding of WHY Jesus established an infallible Church.
I’m still working on the next few steps which take you through Apostolic Succession and the Papacy.
What I have is in outline form:
Principle #7: Apostolic Succession
These reliable men, the Apostles, who were chosen and sent by Jesus and the Holy Spirit have passed on their God-given authority to other men from one generation to the next from their day all the way down to our own. This “handing on” of Authority is known as Apostolic Succession.
i) Mt 28:19-20
(1) Make disciples of all nations; 1 Cor 12:28 (in the Church, first apostles)
(2) Jesus with them to the end of the age; but they died…yet, their successors live on
(3) Mission of the Church is a teaching mission; Jesus said “teach”, not “go and write”
ii) Acts 1:15-26; apostolic succession; apostles occupied “offices”; when office holder died, he was replaced-succession
iii) Office of bishop; 1 Tim 3:1
iv) Passing on an “inheritance”; 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, 2:1; 1 Tim 1:18, Titus 1:4, 1 Cor 4:17
v) Apostolic authority is passed on; 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2 Tim 2:2, Titus 1:5-7, 1 Tim 1:3, 4:11-13
I’m still working on the next few steps which take you through Apostolic Succession and the Papacy.
What I have is in outline form:
Principle #7: Apostolic Succession
These reliable men, the Apostles, who were chosen and sent by Jesus and the Holy Spirit have passed on their God-given authority to other men from one generation to the next from their day all the way down to our own. This “handing on” of Authority is known as Apostolic Succession.
i) Mt 28:19-20
(1) Make disciples of all nations; 1 Cor 12:28 (in the Church, first apostles)
(2) Jesus with them to the end of the age; but they died…yet, their successors live on
(3) Mission of the Church is a teaching mission; Jesus said “teach”, not “go and write”
ii) Acts 1:15-26; apostolic succession; apostles occupied “offices”; when office holder died, he was replaced-succession
iii) Office of bishop; 1 Tim 3:1
iv) Passing on an “inheritance”; 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, 2:1; 1 Tim 1:18, Titus 1:4, 1 Cor 4:17
v) Apostolic authority is passed on; 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2 Tim 2:2, Titus 1:5-7, 1 Tim 1:3, 4:11-13
-
Code:
Authority passed on by “laying on of hands”; 2 Tim 1:6, 1 Tim 1:18, 4:14, 5:22
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
- The Pope
a) Pope is the Bishop of Rome; Successor of Peter
b) Mt 16:15-19; revelation from the Father, the Rock, keys of kingdom, binding and loosing
c) Is 22:20-22; keys-authority, “father” to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, opening and shutting - binding and loosing, house of David
d) Primacy of Peter among the Apostles
i) Mt 16:15-19-only Peter is given the keys
ii) Jn 21:15-19-Peter appointed shepherd
iii) Peter’s name is mentioned almost twice as many times as all other Apostles together; Peter listed first among Apostles; Peter is first to act (1st half of Acts of Apostles)
iv) Acts 4:18-20 and Mt 23:2-3, O.T. seat of authority was the “chair of Moses”; chair of Peter is N.T. seat of authority
v) Lk 22:31-32; Jesus prays specifically for Peter to “strengthen his brethren”
e) 2 Peter 1:12-15 and John 21:15-19
i) Peter is talking to mature Christians; 2 Ptr 1:1
ii) God’s Word never goes unfulfilled; Is 55:11
iii) Peter is going to do something which will enable Christians to “always” and “at any time” be reminded of certain things; What did he do?
iv) Jn 21:15-19; Jesus about to return to Heaven, Jesus appoints Peter as shepherd of the flock and Jesus “shows”Peter how Peter is to die
v) 2 Ptr 1:14, Peter soon to go to Heaven as Jesus “showed” him; Peter is going to do something which will allow Christians to “always” and “at any time” be reminded
vi) How did Peter fulfill his promise? Nothing in Scripture, so as a Protestant I would have no answer; as a Catholic, I would suggest that Peter imitated Christ and appointed a shepherd for the flock
H
hoosierdaddy
Guest
Randy>>Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20 NIV)
What that verse is really saying is that all Scripture is inspired by God. We know this by looking at verse 21. The prophets spoke and the apostles wrote down exactly what God wanted them to do (which corresponds well with 2Tim. 3:16). The verse backs up the belief that Scripture is inspired. It doesn’t say that we can’t interpret Scripture on our own.
What that verse is really saying is that all Scripture is inspired by God. We know this by looking at verse 21. The prophets spoke and the apostles wrote down exactly what God wanted them to do (which corresponds well with 2Tim. 3:16). The verse backs up the belief that Scripture is inspired. It doesn’t say that we can’t interpret Scripture on our own.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Randy,
I asked the following:
SolaScriptura:
I asked the following:
All of your hand waving [SIGN]Look Over Here[/SIGN] still doesn’t answer the above. You can Cut-n-Paste 100s of websites and none of them can change the fact that the ECF knew nothing of the Papal Infallibility. You remind me of the Wizard of Oz with all the noise, thunder, and strong words to distract everyone from what is truly behind the curtain.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
To: Sola Scriptura
I have spent hours fleshing all of this out from a talk presented by another Catholic apologist. I present it to you in the hopes that you will take a moment to consider the logic of the argument. I may have done a “cut and paste”, but it was from my own Word file and not from a website. The material you see before you has never appeared in print anywhere before. And the points I make go directly to your question. I’m sorry that you skimmed so quickly that you missed that. This is why it is of little value to continue discussion with you.
Since you ask good questions, I think we can both recognize that the task of responding to each of your flippant one-liners is truly daunting…HOWEVER all of your points can and have been refuted. The Catholic Church has been dealing with heretics for a long, long time. Just don’t expect to get all of the answers to your questions from me.
To: My Catholic Brothers and Sisters:
The core of what I presented was drawn from a single talk given by John Martignoni and available for free at biblechristiansociety.com/ . I have supplemented with some thoughts of my own and from other sources.
Peace.
I have spent hours fleshing all of this out from a talk presented by another Catholic apologist. I present it to you in the hopes that you will take a moment to consider the logic of the argument. I may have done a “cut and paste”, but it was from my own Word file and not from a website. The material you see before you has never appeared in print anywhere before. And the points I make go directly to your question. I’m sorry that you skimmed so quickly that you missed that. This is why it is of little value to continue discussion with you.
Since you ask good questions, I think we can both recognize that the task of responding to each of your flippant one-liners is truly daunting…HOWEVER all of your points can and have been refuted. The Catholic Church has been dealing with heretics for a long, long time. Just don’t expect to get all of the answers to your questions from me.
To: My Catholic Brothers and Sisters:
The core of what I presented was drawn from a single talk given by John Martignoni and available for free at biblechristiansociety.com/ . I have supplemented with some thoughts of my own and from other sources.
Peace.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Perhaps you are unaware that Jesus was celebrating the Passover with his disciples and that they would have had not one, but FOUR cups of wine throughout the course of the seder. Or have YOU not read it?
Heh, heh. Try telling that to a Lutheran or an Anglican.
If I were married to the notion that everyone is free to interpret the Word of God for themselves as you are, then I would agree with your statement. However, the Catholic Church is unique in that it is charged with protecting and preserving the full deposit of faith. Thus, it’s interpretation is final. But there I go asserting again…
The primary difference is that the Catholic Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus, and therefore, she cannot err on matters of faith and morals. And, no, disagreements are not precluded - but they are ENDED when Rome speaks.
If you examine any doctrine, you will find that the Church teaches the same things today that she taught 500, 1,000, 1500 or nearly 2,000 years ago. The language may have changed and the understanding developed, but the core elements remain the same. You cannot say that of your own faith community.
Since these alleged flip-flops never occurred, I cannot explain them.
As are you my Protestant friend. Read any good books lately?
Then let me explain it to you. Athanasius and Augustine and Aquinas and Newman and Knox and many, many others have done the heavy lifting. It’s just my job to tell you the truth.
Then pick up a Catechism and start reading because the Church today is the same one that you say you would be willing to listen to, and the Bishops of that Church are the heirs of those Apostles through an unbroken chain of Apostolic Succession.
J
jacobaer
Guest
Hey Sola,
I asked you another question and you haven’t answered yet.
I’ll ask it again.
Can a Christian who believes that Jesus is fully God and fully man believe any of the following:
A) Jesus has two natures and is two separate persons in one body.
B) Jesus is one person and has one nature, a combination of the human and divine natures.
Jacobaer
I asked you another question and you haven’t answered yet.
I’ll ask it again.
Can a Christian who believes that Jesus is fully God and fully man believe any of the following:
A) Jesus has two natures and is two separate persons in one body.
B) Jesus is one person and has one nature, a combination of the human and divine natures.
Jacobaer
J
jacobaer
Guest
Hey hoosierdaddy,
I am going to start a separate thread just 4 U on purgatory and all the Scriptures that support it. AND I won’t even use 2 Maccabees.
Please look for it tomorrow. I will title it Purgatory in Scripture.
Peace,
Jacobaer
I am going to start a separate thread just 4 U on purgatory and all the Scriptures that support it. AND I won’t even use 2 Maccabees.
Please look for it tomorrow. I will title it Purgatory in Scripture.
Peace,
Jacobaer
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