A reply to Sola Scriptura (the poster and the doctrine)

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SolaScriptura:
I read what you posted. You act as if Fr Brown, Fr Fitzmyer, and others have never read these things. First of all as I pointed out to you everything a Pope writes in an encyclical is considered infallible
and binding on all Catholics. If so, you are force to admit the earlier Popes who wrote encyclicals agreeing with the Arians bound all Catholics over to that heresy.

I don’t need to read any further.
This is wrong.
Encyclicals are not infallible statements.
All of your thought is based upon a false premise.
Do some homework.
Yes, this is wrong and it should have been obvious from the context that I meant NOT every encyclical is considered infallible. Remember you quoted from the encyclicals to prove your position. I was pointing out to you that the scholars do not regard these as infallible teaching, therefore they are not bound to submit to them. Therefore for you to quote from these encyclicals doesn’t settle the matter.
Randy Carson:
Sorry, Sola, but I think we’re done.
I thought you were so eager to dialogue. Even if I was wrong on that one point it is no reason for you to stop the dialogue. Maybe you realized it was not going to be as easy as you thought.
 
Sola,

You said to Randy Carson: “You have to learn how to make your point more succinctly. Many words do not make a more convincing response. All you end up doing is wasting a lot of time.”

ME: Why do you subtly demean your brother in Christ? Are you unable to debate/discuss without getting personal?

Peace,
Jacobaer
Oh please, that was not demeaning. Catholics on this board have said much worst in reference to Protestants and not peep from you.
 
Okay, I hope you will bear with me just a little bit longer on this issue.

I have sitting on the desk before me a CD containing the audio recording of the debate between Patrick Madrid and James White. I also have a notebook containing the transcript of the debate which I got at James’ website along with follow up articles such as “The White Man’s Burden”, etc.

Q: What was the title of the debate?
A: “Does the Bible Teach Sola Scriptura?”
Yes, I never denied that sola Scriptura is a good and necessary principle derived from Scripture. What I denied is that the Scripture explicitly say “the Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith”.
Q: Who chose the title of the debate?
A: James White
Ummm … no, it is usually agreed upon by the two parties.
Q: Who took the affirmative position?
A: James White
You got that one right.
Q: What verses did James White use assert the affirmative?
A: 2 Timothy 3:16-17
You still haven’t grasped the arguments. The point is not that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 cannot be used, but what is it being used for. I’ve used it on this board. Typically it is used to prove the Scriptures are formally sufficient. Got it?
Therefore, in contradiction to what you wrote above (highlighted and underlined for emphasis), White (and others) have used 2 Timothy 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible teaches the doctrine of sola scriptura: “the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith for the believer.”
Wrong again my friend. Read or listen more clearly to the context of the point being made.
Finally, just peruse the threads of this forum. Whenever any Catholic asks a visiting Protestant where the Bible teaches sola scriptura, they all trot out 2 Timothy 3:16-17 just like they have been taught at church by their pastors.
Are you going to dialogue with me or everybody else? Deal with my arguments.
Sola, my understanding of the stakes involved is not flawed. Now you may begin to see why I was floored when you gave away the store.
Your understanding is flawed, because it based on a misunderstanding again. Not only did you misunderstand James and others, you have now misunderstood me. You seem to think that I’m saying 2 Tim. 3:16-17 can never be used. Now that is definitely a failure to grasp the arguments being made.
 
Yes, this is wrong and it should have been obvious from the context that I meant NOT every encyclical is considered infallible. Remember you quoted from the encyclicals to prove your position. I was pointing out to you that the scholars do not regard these as infallible teaching, therefore they are not bound to submit to them. Therefore for you to quote from these encyclicals doesn’t settle the matter.

I thought you were so eager to dialogue. Even if I was wrong on that one point it is no reason for you to stop the dialogue. Maybe you realized it was not going to be as easy as you thought.
To the contrary. I recognized in advance that you are a formidable debate opponent, and I realize the effort I will have to expend to engage you after watching the endless energy you put into debating Redbandito in another thread. You are the energizer bunny! :tiphat:

However, if your arguments are based upon a false presupposition, then you might need time to rethink; otherwise, we are both spinning our wheels. Here is a link to a good site on infallibility:

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#V

Let’s summarize:
  1. Your assertions about the Frs. Brown and Fitzmyer have no weight. Their writings are not official Church teaching, and here is a link to an article that addresses the issue in greater detail: catholicculture.org/docs/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=212&ChapNum=16 Carson 1, Sola 0
  2. You have abandoned the idea that the Bible teaches sola scriptura. The rest is just your own fallible assertion. Jacobaer, Mikeledes and I are in the “mopping up phase” of this argument - answering a few questions from members of the audience, signing a few programs, posing for pictures, and what not. Unless you really want to replay the entire Madrid v. White debate (universal negatives and all), I suggest we move on. Carson 2, Sola 0
Now, you asked four questions at the outset. I’ve answered one and you have answered one of mine. Frankly, I’m very pleased with the current state of affairs. The remainder of your questions do not worry me; at least one them has been answered by someone else. Why be redundant?

At the same time, I’m not convinced that you are here to learn. You are here to argue. The Catholic Church must be wrong. Everything else flows from this presuppostion.

I put a lot of time into composing thoughtful replies but you dismissed them because they were too lengthy. This is a bad return on my investment, and it is not why I’m here. I’m here to share the truth with people who have questions. Hoosierdaddy got banned. Myfavoritmartin just sent me a very nice email stating he is signing off. Sooner, Kaycee and others await.

IOW, I’m not sure anything I say will help you return to the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, and I question the value of continuing to sow seed on rocky soil.

Hey, I could be wrong. Convince me that you’re actually listening.
 
Jerome

“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” - Jerome (Prefaces to the Books of the Vulgate Version of the Old Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs).
What is your point? The Church included the 7 deuterocanonical books (Wisdom, Judith, Tobit, Sirach, Baruch, I & II Maccabees) in its canon at the following Councils: Rome (AD 382), Hippo (393), Carthage (397), Carthage (419), Florence (1441), and Trent (1545-1563). No church councils have excluded these 7 books.

All 7 books are included in Jerome’s Latin Vulgate which he compiled in the years AD 390 to 405.

You quote from Jerome’s Prologue to the Books of Solomon (398). Jerome, however, made other statements about the deuterocanonical books. Look at his writings in the order they are written. Jerome first rejected these 7 books as apocrypha, later considered them as useful reading, and finally acknowledged the Church’s authority to include them in the canon.
  1. AD 390: Jerome’s “Helmeted Introduction” to Kings
    “This prologue to the Scriptures may be appropriate as a helmeted introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so we may be able to know whatever is outside of these is set aside among the apocrypha. Therefore, Wisdom, which is commonly ascribed to Solomon, and the book of Jesus son of Sirach, and Judith and Tobias, and The Shepherd are not in the canon. I have found the First Book of the Maccabees (is) Hebrew, the Second is Greek, which may also be proven by their styles.”
Note: This is before the Councils of Carthage and Hippo which included the 7 books in the canon. Jerome considers the books as apocrypha just like “The Shepherd” which was never subsequently canonized by the Church. His statement indicates only that there was controversy about which books were accepted by the Church since it had not made a definitive statement. That is why the Church addressed these issues at the these councils, to settle controversy.
  1. AD 398: Jerome’s Prologue to the Books of Solomon
    “Therefore, just as the Church also reads the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the the canonical Scriptures, so also one may read these two scrolls for the strengthening of the people, (but) not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogmas.”
Note: Although this is after the Councils of Hippo & Carthage, Jerome says that the Church does not consider them canonical since they are not used for confirming ecclesiastical dogmas, but that they may be read for strengthening of the people.
  1. AD 402: Against Rufinus 11:33
    “What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in Hebrew volume (ie canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn’t relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they (the Jews) are wont to make against us.”
Note: Jerome is defending himself for following the judgment of the Church and including sections of the books of Esther and Daniel that were not accepted by the Hebrews in their canon of AD 90. (Sections that are in Catholic Bibles today, but are not in Protestant Bibles.)
  1. AD 405-407: Jerome’s Prologues to Judith and Tobit:
Tobit: “I do not cease to wonder at the constancy of your demanding. For you demand that I bring a book written in Chaldean words into Latin writing, indeed the book of Tobias (Tobit), which the Hebrews exclude from the catalogue of Divine Scriptures, being mindful of those things which they have titled Hagiographa. I have done enough for your desire, yet not by my study. For the studies of the Hebrews rebuke us and find fault with us, to translate this for the ears of Latins contrary to their canon. But it is better to be judging the opinion of the Pharisees to displease and to be subject to the commands of bishops.”

Judith: “Among the Hebrews the Book of Judith is found among the Hagiographa, the authority of which toward confirming those which have come into contention is judged less appropriate. Yet having been written in Chaldean words, it is counted among the histories. But because this book is found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures, I have acquiesced to your request, indeed a demand, and works having been set aside from which I was forcibly curtailed, I have given to this (book) one short night’s work translating more sense from sense than word from word.”

Note: Jerome acknowledges that he is following the commands of bishops to include Tobit and that the Church decided at the Council of Nicea (AD 325) that Judith was considered among the Sacred Scriptures.
 
Sola and Kaycee, I have two questions:
  1. If Sola Scriptura was the teaching of the Early Church, why is it that a formally defined canon (particularly of the New Testament) did not exist until the fourth and fifth centuries? If the Bible is the sole infallible authority on matters of doctrine, then I would expect more urgency in discerning which books were inspired and which were not, not a 300 year waiting period.
Not having a formally defined canon does not negate the fact that they still used the Scriptures. This is evident in the early fathers how they quoted from Scriptures. Furthermore, the OT was enough to communicate the Gospel. Remember in 2 Timothy 3 Paul tells Timothy he had the Scriptures from childhood( OT Scriptures ) which were enough to teach him faith in Christ Jesus. But once again I turned your question back on you. If an infallible magisterium was necessary why wasn’t in formally defined until the 20 century? Where is the canon of infallible tradition?
  1. If the Bible is the sole infallible authority on doctrine, who put the Bible together? Who discerned which books were inspired and which were not?
Typical Catholic dodge. When they can’t anywhere with sola Scriptura the switch to the canon. The problem is these same fallacious questions have been answered time and time again. It is like we are in this vicious circle. Lets leave the canon alone for the time being and deal with sola Scriptura or we can leave sola Scriptura alone and deal with the canon.
  1. How do you know with absolute certainty that all of the books contained in your Bible are inspired?
Sigh … how do you know with absolute certainty that of all the churches proclaiming to be the true church you have picked the right one?
How do you know that the Letter of Jude or 3 John belong in the Bible?
How do you know what Rome says is infallilble tradition(i.e. Papal Infallibility, Bodily Assumption) is really infallible?
A letter can sound authoritative, its content can be absolutely true, and can even be written by an apostle, but that still does not make it automatiocally inspired.
A church can tell you they have an infallible spokesperson and they alone can rightly interpret Scripture and Tradition, but that still does not make them infallible.
Several letters of Paul did not make it into the canon.
Several Popes believed heretical doctrines.

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.
 
However, if your arguments are based upon a false presupposition, then you might need time to rethink; otherwise, we are both spinning our wheels. Here is a link to a good site on infallibility:

newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#V

Let’s summarize:
  1. Your assertions about the Frs. Brown and Fitzmyer have no weight. Their writings are not official Church teaching, and here is a link to an article that addresses the issue in greater detail: catholicculture.org/docs/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=212&ChapNum=16 Carson 1, Sola 0
Is this article an infallible teaching or just the private interpretation of someone else? Frs Brown and Fitzmyer has more weight than Randy Carson and other internet apologists.
  1. You have abandoned the idea that the Bible teaches sola scriptura. The rest is just your own fallible assertion. Jacobaer, Mikeledes and I are in the “mopping up phase” of this argument - answering a few questions from members of the audience, signing a few programs, posing for pictures, and what not. Unless you really want to replay the entire Madrid v. White debate (universal negatives and all), I suggest we move on. Carson 2, Sola 0
Wow this is an impressive argument, sigh. Furthermore, I never said the bible doesn’t teach sola Scriptura. As a matter of fact I’ve been arguing all along that the principle is derived from the Scriptures. What I said is that the bible doesn’t say the Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith. Besides this misrepresentation you haven’t dealt with the substance of my argument yet. You act like my real argument is Kryptonite and you are Superman, you want nothing to do with it. Instead you keep beating the dead horse.
Now, you asked four questions at the outset. I’ve answered one and you have answered one of mine. Frankly, I’m very pleased with the current state of affairs.
Does this kind of talk help to build up your faith? It almost seem like you are trying to convince yourself of something.
The remainder of your questions do not worry me; at least one them has been answered by someone else. Why be redundant?
Wow, great response. Can’t argue with this type of logic.
At the same time, I’m not convinced that you are here to learn. You are here to argue. The Catholic Church must be wrong. Everything else flows from this presuppostion.
Just because I believe the Catholic church is wrong it doesn’t mean I can’t learn anything False either/or dichotomy. However, I could equally say the same thing about you. You are not out to learn anything, all you want to do is build up strawmen to knock them down. When I give you a true argument you run away from it like a bear is chasing you.
I put a lot of time into composing thoughtful replies but you dismissed them because they were too lengthy.
No, I didn’t dismiss them. I responded to them with the following:


  1. *]You acted as if Frs Brown, Fitzmyer, and others had never seen them before.
    *]Popes knew their position and still appointed them to Biblical Commissions of all things, so that is tacit approval
    *]The encyclicals are not infallible therefore they do not settle the issue

    So this is another misrepresentation on your part when you say I dismissed them. My point was quote from an encyclical would have been sufficient to make your point and get it refuted.
    This is a bad return on my investment, and it is not why I’m here. I’m here to share the truth with people who have questions. Hoosierdaddy got banned. Myfavoritmartin just sent me a very nice email stating he is signing off. Sooner, Kaycee and others await.

    IOW, I’m not sure anything I say will help you return to the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, and I question the value of continuing to sow seed on rocky soil.
    OK, I’m not begging you to dialogue. You entered into it on your own and so you may leave on your own.
    Hey, I could be wrong. Convince me that you’re actually listening.
    Sounds like a convenient excuse to me. Have it your way my friend.
 
Sola Scriptura-

I have been thinking about my last post for the past hour or so.

I regret having posted it, and if it were not for the 20-minute rule, I would have deleted it. If you had not already responded, I would have asked a moderator to delete it for me.

I feel I crossed a line that I established for myself when I became active on this forum. I’m not here to win arguments; I’m here to plant seeds. Someone else may water them.

IMO, our debate has become too personal and insufficiently objective. It has become about winning, about proving the other person is wrong purely for ego’s sake. This does not foster the unity that Jesus prayed for us to have.

Of course, you may not feel this way, but I do, and I must listen to my conscience as the Spirit leads. I apologize to you and to all who have been following for my part.

I concede nothing, but the field is yours. I’m sure we’ll cross swords again. But not this day.

I appreciate your time and your thoughts which have pushed me to expand my own.

Peace.
 
God’s written word was entrusted to the Jews, but he never provided them with an inspired table of contents. For that reason, there has been ample disagreement over the canon—especially among Jews.
An assertion that flies in the face of the evidence.

By New Testament times, the Hebrew Bible consisted of a precise number of books and were ordered according to a specific structure, proving that it was closed long before the time of Christ. Witnesses to the number and structure of the books of the canon is confirmed by many independent sources, including: Jesus, The Apocrypha, The Pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, The Pharisees and Essenes, The ECFs and Rabbinical Literature.
gradual accretion indicated that the Jewish people felt no need for a static canon but remained open to further revelation. They divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order). By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.
The ancient Jews, to whom were entrusted the “oracles of God” (Rom. 3:2), never accepted these apocryphal books as part of the inspired canon – and still dont. Josephus expressed the common Jewish perspective when he said that the prophets wrote from the time of Moses to that of Artaxerxes, and that no writing since that time had the same authority. The Jewish Talmud teaches that the Holy Spirit departed from Israel after the time of Malachi, four centuries before Christ.
In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three.
The idea that the Sadducees (like the Samaritans) acknowledged the Pentateuch only as holy scripture is based on a misunderstanding: when Josephus, for example, says that the Sadducees ‘admit no observance at all apart from the laws’, he means not the Pentateuch to the exclusion of the Prophets and the Writings but the written law (of the Pentateuch) to the exclusion of the oral law (the Pharisaic interpretation and application of the written law, which, like the written law itself, was held in theory to have been received and handed down by Moses)
Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.
Is the commentary in your bible also scripture because its bound in the same book with scripture?

The truth appears to be that the Jews were perfectly clear as to the limits of the Canon in spite of the fact they read and esteemed highly a number of other books. But, as Josephus and Philo show by their direct comments on the subject, knowledge and use of the Septuagint translation of the Law, Prophets and Hagiographa does not imply the recognition of the canonicity of the apocryphal books that were incorporated in the later codices.
Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh. Rabbis continued to debate it into the second and third centuries.
The theory of Jamnia is unsupportable because the Apocrypha was never considered for the canon. It was never even discussed. Even if Jamnia closed the canon (suggesting it had been open) the Apocrypha was never part of the discussion. And the history of Judaism following Jamnia demonstrates that the Apocrypha was never accepted by the Jews. Again, we observe this in the witness of Aquila, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek after Jamnia. His canon agrees with the Talmudic writings, which was the canon catalogued by Jerome and Josephus. Aquila’s work proves that the accepted Jewish Bible included the five disputed books, as in the time of Josephus, but not the Apocrypha. Jamnia changed nothing with respect to the canon.
If anything is certain, it is that there was no common canon among the Jews at the time of Christ.
:eek: An amazing assertion considering the facts.

Jesus did not leave us a list of inspired Old Testament books. However, following the traditional Jewish view of the canon, he referred to the Scriptures by the threefold division of the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.

Our Lord and his apostles might differ from the religious leaders of Israel about the meaning of the scriptures; **there is no suggestion that they differed about the limits of the scriptures. **‘The scriptures’ on whose meaning they differed were not an amorphous collection: when they spoke of ‘the scriptures’ they knew which writings they had in mind and could distinguish them from other writings which were not included in ‘the scriptures’
 
Thanks for all of the information you provided. Do you have any comments on my previous post which stated:
You do realize that these seven books were part of the Bible for 1100 years from the fourth century councils that established the canon until the 1500’s when a Protestant named
Martin Luther
subtracted
We never added anything, but he took away.
“And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Rev 22:19)
 
Kaycee-

In posts 396-402, I provided an admittedly lengthy explanation of how Jesus established a church beginning with the Apostles, gave them His own Authority, and remains with that Church to this very day through the successors of the Apostles by the formal “laying on of hand” known as “Apostolic Succession”.

I did not “cut and paste” this material from a website; it is my own work based upon and fleshed out from several talks given by another Catholic apologist, John Martignoni.

I am a Catholic, and though I am your brother in the Lord, I realize you will not receive what I have presented very readily. However, if you want to understand why Catholics do not view the Bible as the sole infallible rule of faith, you really need to understand the material I presented.

I did not say “agree with” but “understand”. However, my entire presentation is built upon a scriptural foundation, so I think it is reasonably sound. I welcome your critique, of course.

Finally, much has been made in this thread and elsewhere about the nature of scripture as “God-breathed” or theopneustos as described in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Amen! Catholics love every word of those verses. We also love these:

"Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:21-23)

There it is, Kaycee. The Catholic Church is a “God-breathed” Church, and she exercises to this day the full authority given to her by Jesus as the scriptures declare.
 
You do realize that these seven books were part of the Bible for 1100 years from the fourth century councils that established the canon until the 1500’s when a Protestant named
Martin Luther
subtracted
them
from
the
Bible.

We never added anything, but he took away.

“And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Rev 22:19)
It is a simple historical fact that Luther’s translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther began translating the New Testament in 1521, and released a finished version in 1522. He published sections of the Old Testament as he finished them. He finished the entire Bible by 1534. There was never an attempt on Luther’s part to leave James, Jude, Hebrews, or Revelation un-translated or left out of his published Bible.

Luther wrote a preface to James claiming it “contradicts Paul by teaching justification by works”. In the earliest editions Luther wrote his now famous comment: “St. James Epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to [St. Paul’s letters], for it lacks this evangelical character”
Luther never declared James or any other New Testament book non-canonical. He quotes from James occasionally.
 
It is a simple historical fact that Luther’s translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther began translating the New Testament in 1521, and released a finished version in 1522. He published sections of the Old Testament as he finished them. He finished the entire Bible by 1534. There was never an attempt on Luther’s part to leave James, Jude, Hebrews, or Revelation un-translated or left out of his published Bible.

Luther wrote a preface to James claiming it “contradicts Paul by teaching justification by works”. In the earliest editions Luther wrote his now famous comment: “St. James Epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to [St. Paul’s letters], for it lacks this evangelical character”
Luther never declared James or any other New Testament book non-canonical. He quotes from James occasionally.
Kaycee-

Let me begin by saying that I may have been in error when I said that he actually did remove them from the first edition.

In my haste, I was attempting to point out that Luther’s low view of certain NT books, along with his re-classification of the seven OT books, would have (and in some aspects actually did) result in a profound change in the canon.

In other words, it is my understanding that James, Revelation, Esther, Hebrews and Jude were not high on his “to-do” list when he was working on his German translation, and apart from the intervention of some friends who persuaded him to the contrary, he would have omitted them from the Bible. Thus, in his mind, they were not scripture. He removed them mentally if not in fact.

Would you agree that Luther attempted to remove James and Revelation from his German edition but was persuaded against this action by friends?

And that he removed certain OT books to a separate section of his bible which led to their ultimate elimination from most Protestant translations today?

And while you are educating me (for which I thank you), did Luther attempt to add the word “alone” to Romans 3:28 - an addition that no modern translation today contains?

Thanks.
 
In other words, it is my understanding that James, Revelation, Esther, Hebrews and Jude were not high on his “to-do” list when he was working on his German translation, and apart from the intervention of some friends who persuaded him to the contrary, he would have omitted them from the Bible. Thus, in his mind, they were not scripture. He removed them mentally if not in fact.

Would you agree that Luther attempted to remove James and Revelation from his German edition but was persuaded against this action by friends?
I am not familiar with these anecdotes. He obviously did struggle with these books as part of the canon as did his contemporaries, Erasmus and Catejan.

You might have the ability to read between his lines. All I do know is his Bible contains the 4 books you mention.
And that he removed certain OT books to a separate section of his bible which led to their ultimate elimination from most Protestant translations today?
I think he was in good company, dont you think?

Two key Roman Catholic contemporaries of Luther similarly expressed concern over the certainty of the canon: Desiderius Erasmus, best known for publishing the Greek New Testament and Cardinal Cajetan, remembered as the papal legate that questioned Luther in Augsburg in 1518. Both expressed similar doubts about particular Biblical books, and both were regarded as important sixteenth century scholars. **Similar to Luther, Erasmus questioned the canonicity of particular books. **The Catholic Encyclopedia points out,

“[T]he attitude of Erasmus towards the text of the New Testament is an extremely radical one, even if he did not follow out all its logical consequences. In his opinion the Epistle of St. James shows few signs of the Apostolic spirit; the Epistle to the Ephesians has not the diction of St. Paul, and the Epistle to the Hebrews he assigns with some hesitation to Clement of Rome…”

Erasmus went as far as removing verses from the first edition of his Greek New Testament. He omitted 1 John 5:7-8 because he could find it in no manuscript. Roland Bainton notes,

“There was such an outcry that he agreed to restore it in case it could be discovered in any manuscript. One was found…and Erasmus, having sworn, was true to his oath…Unhappily the spurious verse passed from this second edition into the textus receptus and then into the King James translation. In the late nineteenth century, Pope Leo XIII declared it to be genuine, but forty years later a commission of the church reversed his verdict. Today no Catholic would defend its authenticity.”

Cajetan
wrote a commentary on all the canonical books of the Old Testament which he dedicated to the pope. He stated that the books of the Apocrypha were not canonical in the strict sense, explaining that there were two concepts of the term ‘canonical’ as it applied to the Old Testament. He gave the following counsel on how to properly interpret the decrees of the Councils of Hippo and Carthage under Augustine:

Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. **For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome./b] Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

Erasmus, Luther, and Cajetan formed their opinions previous to the council of Trent. The New Catholic encyclopedia has honestly pointed out,

“According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the Biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church (at the Council of Trent). Before that time there was some doubt about the canonicity of certain Biblical books, i.e., about their belonging to the canon.”

Their “liberty” was simply the liberty as allowed by the sixteenth century Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus, Cajetan, and Luther had every right within the Catholic system to engage in Biblical criticism and debate over the extent of the Canon. All expressed “some doubt.” The books they questioned were books that had been questioned by previous generations.**
 
Not having a formally defined canon does not negate the fact that they still used the Scriptures.
Correct, however it does mean that they were not capable of operating under sola scriptura in the manner you have presented it.
 
Sigh … how do you know with absolute certainty that of all the churches proclaiming to be the true church you have picked the right one?
In addition to every advantage that you can list for any other church, the Catholic Church has the advantage of having living witnesses of every single generation to testify to it’s authenticity. There is no such thing as “absolute certainty” apart from faith.
 
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SolaScriptura:
Not having a formally defined canon does not negate the fact that they still used the Scriptures.
Correct, however it does mean that they were not capable of operating under sola scriptura in the manner you have presented it.
Yes, and I have freely mentioned that already. Here is the point. For the Protestant, sola Scriptura is in essence equal to the word of God as the only infallible rule of faith for the church. So this principal has been constant since creation. What has changed is the church’s access to the word of God. There were times when individuals were speaking the word of God so Scripture alone was not our only access to the word of God. However today no one can demonstrate any other source of the word of God besides Scripture and that is why it is sola Scriptura for the church today.

Furthermore, I don’t see why sola Scriptura not being always practiced is supposed to be a winner for Catholicism. Your rule of faith has never been practiced before in the history of the church until the 20 century. Under the Old Covenant there were no 3 sources of infallible teaching with a uninspired single person being the head. It wasn’t true for the Apostolic church. Even if you make the weak argument that Peter was the head, he at least was inspired by the Holy Spirit, which is not the case for Popes after him. We don’t see evidence for this in the early church. So it is the Catholic rule of faith which is truly the novelty in the church. They have elevated uninspired men to the level of infallibility which was basically unknown in the church until they decreed it in the 20th century. Does that bother you?
 
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solaScriptura:
Sigh … how do you know with absolute certainty that of all the churches proclaiming to be the true church you have picked the right one?
In addition to every advantage that you can list for any other church, the Catholic Church has the advantage of having living witnesses of every single generation to testify to it’s authenticity. There is no such thing as “absolute certainty” apart from faith.
I would grant you that there are witnesses in every generation to the church, but I don’t think you can say that same for the modern day Roman Catholic Church. At least not anything close to the unanimous consent that Rome says she has.

I’m not sure what you mean by this statement:

“There is no such thing as “absolute certainty” apart from faith.”

Do you mean one cannot have “absolute certainty” so we must have faith or do you mean one can only have “absolute certainty” by faith?

If you mean the former then maybe you can explain why Catholics always claim Protestants need infallible certainty about the canon? If you mean the latter then you basically contradict the meaning of faith.
 
Philthy-

As I have posted in another thread, we know with certainty that the Popes have maintained their Authority through Apostolic Succession:

THE APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

The following scripture verses illustrate the Apostolic Succession of the Catholic Church and the establishment of the ministerial priesthood – Overseers/Bishops (episcopoi), Elders/Prebyters/Priests (presbuteroi), Deacons(diakunoi) – through the actions and writings of the early Christians.

Acts 1:15-26
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus—he was one of our number and shared in this ministry.” (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms, " ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, " ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Acts 14:13-15
The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you.

Acts 14:23
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers,

Ephesians 2:19-21
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Ephesians 4:11-13
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

1 Timothy 3:1, 8
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. … Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 4:13-14
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

1 Timothy 5:17-22
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

2 Peter 1:12-15
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
 
Quote from Sola Scriptura: “So it is the Catholic rule of faith which is truly the novelty in the church. They have elevated uninspired men to the level of infallibility which was basically unknown in the church until they decreed it in the 20th century. Does that bother you?”

Look at the OT rule of faith shown in Exodus 18:13-16 and Numbers 16. Look at the chair of Moses Jesus spoke about in Matthew 23:2-3. Is this the Protestant model of Sola Scriptura or the Catholic model of ecclesiastical authority?

Look at the NT rule of faith in Acts 15. Is this the Protestant or Catholic model?

What did the early Christians say about authority? Do they sound like Protestants (authority of Scripture alone) or Catholics (ecclesiastical authority through Apostolic succession)? The Catholic rule of faith is not novel. Does that bother you?

Irenaeus–"*t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

Irenaeus–“The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere” (ibid., 4:33:8).

Cyprian of Carthage–"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine–"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).*
 
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