A Response to Anna Scott

[Finrock]

This is a response to a post by Anna Scott made in the “No unity between Catholic Christians and Non-Catholic Christians” thread. Instead of getting off topic, I decided to create a whole new thread.

Hi Anna. I hope you’ve had a good weekend. Thanks for sharing your experience.

To me, it sounds that you were either unfortunate to come across a whole bunch of misinformed Mormons who don’t know their doctrine or some off-shoot of the Mormon church. I’m sorry that you were mislead in such a way that you were taught incorrect Mormon doctrine. I’d like to present a more accurate understanding of some of the most frequently misrepresented Mormon doctrines from your post and also point out things that simply aren’t true Mormon doctrine in your post.

1. Heavenly Father Physically Impregnated Mary-FALSE: The fact that an LDS bishop in good standing would confirm that Mormons believe Heavenly Father physically impregnated Mary is astounding. That this is LDS doctrine is unequivocally false. This accusation is based primarily on statements made in a book by an early apostle in the LDS church which, in my opinion have been misinterpreted by critics to mean something that it does not. However, regardless of what this apostle meant, his statements and his book were his opinion and they never were accepted as doctrine and they have never been taught as authorized doctrine. This criticism against the LDS Church has fallen out of favor even with our most ardent critics simply because it isn’t tenable. That’s why it is so surprising that an LDS bishop wouldn’t clarify this false doctrine attributed to the LDS church.

Here is what Mormon doctrine on this matter really is:

“And behold, he shall shall be born of Mary…she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God” (Alma 7:10).

1. Adam/God Theory-FALSE: The Adam/God theory is another thing that is unequivocally not Mormon doctrine. Here again I am astounded that any LDS bishop in good standing would confirm this. Second, I’m double astounded that he would perpetuate the false idea that this theory originated with Joseph Smith. It actually is taken from words spoken by Brigham Young. Again, these are aberrant statements made by an LDS leader. It isn’t a part of our canon of scripture nor has it ever been taught as authorized doctrine. Speaking to this, the late LDS prophet Spencer Kimball said the following:

“We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine”.

1. Planet Kolob-HALF TRUTH: First, let me clarify that Kolob is a star, not a planet (Abr. 3:3). Usually what happens here is that our critics over emphasize this doctrine, as if it is some central tenant of our religion. The scripture in Abraham is less about planets and stars, than it is about spiritual and eternal progression. However, this scripture is often misconstrued and misrepresented. But, regardless, we do not teach that God lives on a planet called Kolob. Your bishop should have known this.

Below are the two things that are true doctrine:

1. Heavenly Mother-TRUE: The Family Proclamation pretty much sealed the deal on this doctrine, which states: “Each [person] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of* heavenly parents*, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny” (The Family: A Proclamation to the World, Emphasis added). In the past it was widely believed, but not really doctrine.
2. Exaltation/Human Divinization-TRUE: We believe we can “be gods by grace.” Unlike what was implied in your post, it isn’t just men that can become gods, but women can become goddesses. However, this doctrine is very often misunderstood and misrepresented, but nonetheless, it a fact that the LDS church believes mankind has a divine potential. You may be surprised to learn that the LDS church isn’t alone in this belief. Even though theosis (humans become “gods by grace”) is less emphasied by the Roman Catholics these days, it is still something that the Orthodox church teaches and believes in. Admittedly the idea of exaltation and theosis are ontologically different, they are, however, functionally equivalent; both doctrines result in a human becoming by grace all that God is by nature.

My experience in the LDS church has been very different from yours. Jesus Christ is central to our religion. In fact, Joseph Smith stated that the atonement of Jesus Christ is the most important part of our religion and that all other doctrines are just appandages to the atonement. Everything that I have ever been taught, has been centered around Jesus Christ. We believe that all that we do, we do to further His work and His mission, which is to bring souls unto Him. I’ve been taught that Jesus is my Savior. When I read the Book of Mormon, I see testimony after testimony in it’s pages about how “…there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ” (Hel. 5:9) and that we should , "…come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness…(Moro. 10:32). In the LDS church, “…we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, [and] we prophesy of Christ…” (2 Ne. 25:26).

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Eucharisted]

Mormon doctrine has changed quite a lot since its beginning, so I don’t actually trust any Mormon when it comes to Church of Latter-Day Saints belief. All the beliefs you say are false were actually believed in the early times of Mormonism, but, since the church espouses continual revelation (meaning revelation isn’t done), it changes its teachings over times, either to avoid bad reputation or to “trick the elect, if that was possible.” For example, the belief that God the Father impregnated Mary was believed in the early times of Mormonism, and this belief was used by Christians to show how disgusting Mormons were. Than the Church of Latter-Day Saints changed the doctrine, saying Mary wasn’t physically impregnated.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Deceased Living Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught that the entity they call “God the Father” had sex with Mary. It’s clear that Mormons call it the Virgin Birth by courtesy only.

If your own deceased Living Prophets don’t know what Mormon doctrine is, who does?

 

[ParkerD]

It’s clear that Mormons call it the Virgin Birth by courtesy only.

If your own deceased Living Prophets don’t know what Mormon doctrine is, who does?

bpbasilphx,
I don’t get why you and Eucharisted think you know more about LDS doctrine and beliefs including those taught in earlier times, than the LDS themselves know.

How much clearer does the Book of Mormon need to be than to say Christ was born of a virgin? Do you think that Joseph Fielding Smith hadn’t read the Book of Mormon?

What is important to understand absolutely without a doubt is that LDS believe that God the Father has an exalted, glorified tangible body, and that Jesus Christ was resurrected with a glorified body also of whom the apostles testified because they saw Him and felt His tangible Person and saw Him eat as a resurrected Person in their presence. He sits on an exalted throne with His Father in Heaven, in perfect unity with Each Other.

Also, that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God born of His mother Mary. He could thus feel mortal pains and illnesses and grief, but also had power over death and the power to withstand the excruciating pain of the atonement including the crucifixion, then to be resurrected to the glorified state He had with His Father before He was born into this world.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon gentleman (or gentleladies if that is the case)!

Mormon doctrine has changed quite a lot since its beginning, so I don’t actually trust any Mormon when it comes to Church of Latter-Day Saints belief. All the beliefs you say are false were actually believed in the early times of Mormonism, but, since the church espouses continual revelation (meaning revelation isn’t done), it changes its teachings over times, either to avoid bad reputation or to “trick the elect, if that was possible.” For example, the belief that God the Father impregnated Mary was believed in the early times of Mormonism, and this belief was used by Christians to show how disgusting Mormons were. Than the Church of Latter-Day Saints changed the doctrine, saying Mary wasn’t physically impregnated.

bpbasilphx:

Deceased Living Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught that the entity they call “God the Father” had sex with Mary. It’s clear that Mormons call it the Virgin Birth by courtesy only.

If your own deceased Living Prophets don’t know what Mormon doctrine is, who does?

I appreciate both of yours comments and the opportunity to clarify some apparent misunderstandings.

Although some members of the LDS church (including leaders) may (this isn’t even a forgone conclusion) have speculated about the mode of the conception of Jesus, it simply isn’t true that the Church has ever taught anything other than the Biblical account of Jesus’ conception, as doctrine or in any other way. The quotes used by critics to justify the claim that the Church taught anything different are usually misrepresented or misinterpreted to mean something more than what they actually say.

In reality, LDS church leaders at various times have made statements in opposition to any notion that Jesus’ sonship was figurative. With the possible exception of one LDS leader (Orson Pratt), this is the case. These statements affirming the scripture in John 1:14 that Jesus is the only begotten son of the Father in the flesh, are very often misrepresented to mean something else. What these statements from LDS leaders attest to is that the LDS church believes without a doubt that although Jesus Christ is God, He was indeed also a mortal human. He had a body like we do. It was susceptable to pain and to death. He was born of an actual woman and was at one point actually a bady, who grew up and became a man. None of this, however, speaks to the mode of Jesus’ conception. It only attest to the fact that Jesus was indeed literally a human person.

The second point I would like to make is this: It is somewhat suprising to me that a Catholic and an Orthodox would contend that every aberrant statement made by an LDS leader constitutes a doctrine that was taught by the LDS church. Especially since in both religions it is understood that “…bishops, whose ordination could be traced to one of the Twelve Apostles, possessed the fullness of apostolic authority and power, and were the divinely appointed arbiters of what was truly part of the apostolic faith and what was not…” however, "…[t]his supreme power of elucidating and defining the faith handed on to them by the Apostles was fully exercised when bishops gathered together in a worldwide or ecumenical council, whose decisions were not considered authoritative and binding unless ratified by the common consent of the church" (Emphasis added). There is a structure in place in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy to ensure that the general body of the Church knows what is really doctrine/dogma and what is opinion. Similarly, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a structure in place to ensure the general body of the Church knows when doctrine is binding versus when someone is speaking their opinion. I’ve posted this before, but I suppose it needs to be posted again:

“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted” (lds.org, Emphasis added).

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[bpbasilphx]

How much clearer does the Book of Mormon need to be than to say Christ was born of a virgin? Do you think that Joseph Fielding Smith hadn’t read the Book of Mormon?

---

**The BofM called polygamy adultery, too.

That did NOT stop deceased Living Prophet Joseph Smith from having a revelation, recorded in Doctrine and Covenants calling polygamy “celestial marriage” and an everlasting covenant not to be taken away.

I noticed, btw, that you did not actually deny what deceased Living Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said about the conception of the physical body of Jesus; you only said that it’s not in the BofM.

Furthermore, BofM calls Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ONE God–though other of the Mormon Standard Words say that they are three separate gods, and the latter two persons are spirit children of the Mormon “God the Father.”

I’ve been told by more than one Mormon that not all Mormon doctrine is contained the Book for Morons.**

 

[Anna_Scott]

Finrock:

I am really quite disturbed that you would start a new Thread in response to my Post #616 (Jun 14th) on the Thread entitled, “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?”** without ever telling me; not a private message-nothing.**.

What you have done here is wrong on so many levels.

For those participating on this Thread, the following is the full text of my Post:

Posted by Anna Scott to Finrock,

My Mormon friends did answer my questions. They confirmed the very beliefs that you say are “either misconstrued LDS doctrine or not LDS doctrine at all.”

They confirmed the following as beliefs of the LDS Church: God has a wife and lives on another planet (Kolob); there are other gods of other worlds; Joseph Smith wrote that he believed that Adam was god.

Even now, there are websites that confirm these beliefs, and even say Mormons believe that God was once a man, which fits the writings of Joseph Smith.

I would have let this go; but since you are denying that these things are doctrines of the LDS Church; I will tell you more about my experience with the Mormon church.

A Mormon bishop and his wife were my neighbors, before my divorce. I had known them for years. I admired the strength of their family. The bishop seemed like the father I never had. So, after my divorce, they invited me to their church. For weeks, I took lessons at the bishop’s home- with the Mormon Bishop and two Mormon missionaries.

I was at a very vulnerable point in my life. I wanted to belong someplace. I was a single mom, with no family in my city.

So, I went to the Mormon church and finished all the lessons. There were things that concerned me about the church services. I rarely heard the name of Christ spoken. Almost without exception, testimonies began with a statement of belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I was told that there are three heavens. I was also told that God, in the flesh, impregnated Mary.

I did eventually decide to join the church. The day before my baptism, a family member called me and told me about the Mormon belief that God has a wife and lives on another planet (kolob,) and men can become gods. I was so shocked; because none of this was discussed in the lessons-except a passing mention of exaltation-with no clear explanation.

So, I called the Bishop’s house and spoke to one of his daughters. I asked if these beliefs were true, and she admitted that they were. I was really shaken, but I did proceed with baptism. After the baptism, things became very strange. Every time I tried to read the Book of Mormon, I would feel ill–as if I were in a place of darkness.

Then one evening, I heard a knock at my door. It was a friend of mine who drove from another state for a surprise visit. During her stay, I told her that I had been baptized into the Mormon church. She told me she had taken the lessons many years ago. She also told me she found one of Joseph Smith’s early books. Smith actually wrote that he believed Adam was god.

I knew I had to break the connection with the Mormon church as quickly as possible. So, I called the bishop’s wife and told her I did not want any further connection with the Mormon church. She came to my house and asked me why. I told her all the things I had learned about the Mormon beliefs. She acknowledged that they were all true.

When I told her about Joseph Smith’s writings that revealed his belief that Adam was god, she could not deny that either. She said she was familiar with the “Adam/god theory.” I told her I felt that I had been deceived. During the lessons, I was told that the Mormon church is a Christian church–with the same beliefs in God and Jesus as other Christian Churches.

It didn’t end there; members of the church kept calling me and showing up at my door. I kept telling them I was not coming back to the church and to please stop contacting me.

It still didn’t stop. I received phone calls. I received things in the mail-which I marked “return to sender” and left for the Postman. Then, I started receiving things in the mail with no return address-a clear attempt to get me to open the package.

I finally had to write a formal letter to the church–telling them I would consider any further contact harassment—(though I had been harassed, since the moment I told them I was not coming back.)

I was Baptized into the Christian Church again. The whole Mormon experience taught me that blind trust in people and their beliefs can be a dangerous thing.

Now, I look to God. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to “distinguish between the spirits,” and to reveal God’s Truth to me. I study the Bible. I study the history of the Church. I participate in Christian Forums.

Yet, at the end of the day, that which I hold as Truth, comes from God, and from God alone.

Perhaps you denied these beliefs, because you do not believe these things. So, I make no judgment concerning your faith or what you actually believe. I have no right to judge anyone. I have simply relayed my experience with the Mormon church.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV) says, “11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

As I said in my post, I hold no ill feelings toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Mormon Church. However, I did have a very traumatic experience with this church.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna

After all the trauma I suffered from the Mormon Church, you have dealt yet another blow. Please do not insult me by pleading ignorance regarding the way communication works on this website.

May God give me the ability to forgive once again,
Anna

 

[ParkerD]

bpbasilphx,
I don’t get why you and Eucharisted think you know more about LDS doctrine and beliefs including those taught in earlier times, than the LDS themselves know.

How much clearer does the Book of Mormon need to be than to say Christ was born of a virgin? Do you think that Joseph Fielding Smith hadn’t read the Book of Mormon?

What is important to understand absolutely without a doubt is that LDS believe that God the Father has an exalted, glorified tangible body, and that Jesus Christ was resurrected with a glorified body also of whom the apostles testified because they saw Him and felt His tangible Person and saw Him eat as a resurrected Person in their presence. He sits on an exalted throne with His Father in Heaven, in perfect unity with Each Other.

Also, that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God born of His mother Mary. He could thus feel mortal pains and illnesses and grief, but also had power over death and the power to withstand the excruciating pain of the atonement including the crucifixion, then to be resurrected to the glorified state He had with His Father before He was born into this world.

Anna Scott,
I suppose that if what you have written happened to you, that it illustrates why the need for apostles because if that really did happen then the group you were associating with had gone off so far on a tangent that they need to be straightened out with respect to their understanding of LDS doctrine. Especially the “bishop’s daughter.” My children would have no idea what you were talking about if you asked them a question like that.

Our meetings are focused on Christ and how to live His wonderful gospel, week after week. I guess the test you had to bear with living near a group off on a tangent, would be more than any new convert could bear. Sorry it happened, and may God bless you.

 

[ParkerD]

Anna Scott,
I suppose that it would be germaine to mention that I have attended over a hundred different LDS wards during my life, in many different states, and besides my personal experience two brothers and two brothers in law and several cousins have been LDS bishops, and their experiences and those of their families are similar to mine with respect to the consistency of the focus on Christ in their meetings and the doctrine not being off on a tangent such as your experience suggested. So wherever that happened, it was a strange and unfortunate (for you) anomaly.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Cut and paste from Thread entitled, “What is the book of Mormon all about”

Originally Posted by zerinus
I agree it was a bit silly of him to respond to your post by starting a new thread without telling you about it; but you sound unduly paranoid to me. I think your reaction is a bit over the top. If that is an indication of how you reacted to the LDS Church, then I admit it makes me suspicious of that too.

Attempting to discredit my experiences would definitely help the LDS reputation. You can say whatever you wish. I know the truth. God knows the truth. I have said what I needed to say, and I am done with this.