A Roman Catholic Who finds out their Jewish

[JReducation]

Isn’t that just a polite nicety reflecting post-Holocaust sensitivities? The historic doctrine of the Church is that there is “no salvation outside the Church.” She has developed some real nuances in understanding this doctrine, but it sounds like you stretch an those nuances to mean that there is a para-Church in the Jewish Faith. That is contradictory to everything I have been taught about our Faith.

Whoah! I have not stretch anything. I’m just telling you what Pope Benedict wrote when he was Cardinal Ratzinger and what he has said publicly today. I’m not about to challenge his understanding of what the Church has taught, since he is one of the best theologians, if not the best, in the 20th and 21st century.

If you want to go head to toe with him and feel that you have the qualifications, be my guest. I’ll buy a ticket to that match.

Having been the man’s student, I’ll give you fair warning. He does not tolerate people questioning him. He failed many students who questioned him when he was professor. He is bright, he is holy, is kind and he will answer questions. He will not allow his knowledge, credibility or orthodoxy be called into question. He draw a line in the sand that no student of his ever crossed without execution. After one or two victims, no one ever crossed it.

Again, if you read his public statements, his catecheses that he gives to the masses, his letters and interviews, it is his belief that this does not conflict with what the Church says about no salvation outside the Church. Pope Paul VI and Bl. John Paul II held the same interpretation, but were not as precise in explaining it at Pope Benedict is.

Go for it, but don’t accuse me of anything. I’m just the man’s student. Even with a doctorate in theology, I don’t have the guts to even think that he may be mistaken in his understanding. I’m nowhere near as intelligent as he is. Nor have I had the benefit of six hours per day of doing nothing but studying theology as he still does even today. Do that for 85 years or however and you learn a great deal.

I be over ================> As you question Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Ignatius]

I was just reading about former Secretary of State Madeline Albright finding out she is of Jewish ancestry. If a person is raised Roman Catholic and does all the steps to become Catholic then later finds out they are Jewish does the fact that they are Jewish change anything as far as being Roman Catholic? I don’t think so, but I’m just curious if I’m right.

Virtually all of the members of The Church for the first century were Jewish, including Jesus Himself. Also many of The Saints down through the ages were Jewish up and including this very time. Being Jewish is no problem whatsoever.

 

[TrueLight]

Also, there is that other issue about the Jewish faith of today isn’t the same Jewish faith of the First Century. One can argue that no one is of the Jewish religion today.

Yes, I’ve heard this.

There is no salvation outside the Church. Of course there is invincible ignorance, and I know you didn’t say this Br. Jr, but one does not get a free pass because one is Jewish. We all need the saving power of Christ.

God does not break his covenant with us. We break our covenant with him.

In old testament times there were still Jews who perished for not listening to the prophets and choosing their own ways. We need to pray for everyone who is outside the Catholic Church. Ultimately it is up to God, but it is our duty to pray for souls.

 

[Rich_C]

Whoah! I have not stretch anything. I’m just telling you what Pope Benedict wrote when he was Cardinal Ratzinger and what he has said publicly today.

Brother, with all due respect,you haven’t directly answers my questions and I can’t tell which statements are your opinion and which are supposed to represent the Holy Father’s opinion.

I be over ================> As you question Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

I am a dumb layman who would scarcely argue with a parish priest, but I was questioning you to try to get you to summarize what you’re saying more clearly. Perhaps I just can’t think on your level, but I’d ask you kindly not to equate questioning the opinion of a religious on an Internet forum with bolding challenging three Holy Fathers.

 

[JReducation]

Yes, I’ve heard this.

There is no salvation outside the Church. Of course there is invincible ignorance, and I know you didn’t say this Br. Jr, but one does not get a free pass because one is Jewish. We all need the saving power of Christ.

God does not break his covenant with us. We break our covenant with him.

In old testament times there were still Jews who perished for not listening to the prophets and choosing their own ways. We need to pray for everyone who is outside the Catholic Church. Ultimately it is up to God, but it is our duty to pray for souls.

I kind of thought that was a given. If you ever take a course in Spiritual Theology with me, the opening line of my courses is always the same.

“Every man has a journey that he must take. The object of this journey is union with the Divine. This is not an optional journey. It’s life. The only option that one has is to walk or to stand still. He who stands still never finds the truth.”

This applies to people of all faiths and non faiths as well. What makes Judaism and Islam different from other non-Christian faiths is their kinship with Abraham. The fact that there are many elements of the Church found in Islam and Judaism and that Jesus uses these elements to save.

Salvation does not exist outside the Church, but elements of the Church can be found in some very unexpected places. This is a part of that dogma that was never clearly developed until more recent times. It’s a perfect example of what Bl. John Henry Newman wrote when he wrote about the development of Christian doctrine, what St. Bonaventure means when he speaks about a theology of history, what Bl. John Paul meant when he said that in the past, neither Catholics nor non Catholics were very kind to each other and both sides conveniently failed to mention some truths out of sheer anger and frustration. Pope Benedict, at the opening of the celebration for the anniversary of Vatican II spoke about Jews and Muslims and repeated, that they do not need to be proselytized by Catholics, because God has a plan for their conversion. What they need is our prayers that they will see and follow the plan. He also made mention that the Church can extend herself to those outside of the physical boundaries, because she is also divine, not just temporal. God lives outside of space and time. We have no way of knowing how far the Church’s “umbrella” extends.

In essence, he is saying that salvation comes through the Church, even for non Christians. we don’t know how; but we must never put handcuffs on God. It is the duty of every man, including non Christians to walk the journey toward union with the Divine as best he understands it. A dereliction of duty is not a pass, nor even for those who are baptized.

The problem that we have right now is that there are two extremes among Catholics and both are equally dangerous. The one extreme is indifference toward the salvation of souls, including one’s own. It’s an attitude that believes that God is not too concerned about our deliberate sins.

The other extreme is an excessive preoccupation with Jews and Muslims among Christians. It borders on an obsessioin as if to say, “We’re right and you’re wrong.” The problem with such obsessions is that people who get into that mode of thinking often spend more time destroying people’s faith, as weak as it may be, rather than building it up. Instead of finding the good in that other person’s faith and building on it, they find the weaknesses and chop at it at the risk of pushing the person into agnosticism at best and atheism at worse.

It is often best to evangelize through prayer and living example and keep one’s mouth shut, unless one know HOW to evangelize. Many of us know WHAT to say. But we’re like bulls in china shops delivering the package.

If I had met 20 of the people on CAF when I was Jewish, I would have remained a Jew, because of the arrogance and judgmentalism that so many Catholics project or I may have been convinced that Judaism was a bad thing, but would not have bought into Christianity either, because from the standpoint of the Jew, Christianity is a child of Judaism. Based on some observations, it comes across as the wayward child.

I thank God that I was exposed to the Capuchin Franciscans who used their Franciscan charm, kindness, silence, witness, and above all the example of their father Francis to draw me closer to the Church. Once I bought into them, they could sell me Solomon’s temple and I would have purchased it. They earned my trust, my respect, my affection, and above they awakened in me a curiosity about what made them tick the way they did.

Once I learned about Francis, then I understood everything I had ever heard about Jesus. No one ever told me what was wrong with Judaism. On the contrary. I was told of how much Francis loved the Jews and Muslims and how the friars have served Jews and Muslims for 800 years. I was taught that they were my brothers and I did not have to be Catholic to be their brother. Their brotherhood had no boundaries. They protected me from segregation and its evil effects. They gave me an example of prayer, faith, austerity, fidelity to their creed without ever complaining about anyone or anything. I felt as if I had died and gone to Disney. I wanted to know more. That’s how you evangelize.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JReducation]

Brother, with all due respect,you haven’t directly answers my questions and I can’t tell which statements are your opinion and which are supposed to represent the Holy Father’s opinion.

I am a dumb layman who would scarcely argue with a parish priest, but I was questioning you to try to get you to summarize what you’re saying more clearly. Perhaps I just can’t think on your level, but I’d ask you kindly not to equate questioning the opinion of a religious on an Internet forum with bolding challenging three Holy Fathers.

Fair enough.

:hug3:

Maybe my post above, with the example of my own journey to Catholicism, will clarify what my use of abstracts is confusing. What I experienced is what the Holy Fathers have been trying to say. The friars were able to put it into practice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Rich_C]

Fair enough.

:hug3:

Maybe my post above, with the example of my own journey to Catholicism, will clarify what my use of abstracts is confusing. What I experienced is what the Holy Fathers have been trying to say. The friars were able to put it into practice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yes, your last response to TL was really what I wanted to know, thank you. It was no different than I thought the Church’s teaching was, certainly not what it sounded like you were saying way back earlier in this thread. Thanks for putting up with my requests.

 

[Cider]

As a Jew who became Catholic, I really do not understand Catholics seeming obsession with Jews.

 

[Cider]

Also, there is that other issue about the Jewish faith of today isn’t the same Jewish faith of the First Century. One can argue that no one is of the Jewish religion today.

I agree that Temple Judaism and todays Rabbinic Judaism is not the same. This is one thing that struck me as I studied history of the faith. And one of the reasons myriad why I quit practicing it and later became Christian.

 

[TrueLight]

I appreciate the clarity of your answer.

The problem that we have right now is that there are two extremes among Catholics and both are equally dangerous. The one extreme is indifference toward the salvation of souls, including one’s own. It’s an attitude that believes that God is not too concerned about our deliberate sins.

The other extreme is an excessive preoccupation with Jews and Muslims among Christians. It borders on an obsessioin as if to say, “We’re right and you’re wrong.” The problem with such obsessions is that people who get into that mode of thinking often spend more time destroying people’s faith, as weak as it may be, rather than building it up. Instead of finding the good in that other person’s faith and building on it, they find the weaknesses and chop at it at the risk of pushing the person into agnosticism at best and atheism at worse.

I will speak for myself, but I doubt I am alone, in saying that any preoccupation I might have with someone else’s spiritual belief is concern for his soul. That is not to say that someone of another religion may not end up in heaven and I don’t.

I think a very tiny minority has a malevolent attitude against those of other religions when speaking of “no salvation outside the Church”. Most of us know that “but for the grace of God, go I.”

 

[RyanBlack]

I appreciate the clarity of your answer.

I will speak for myself, but I doubt I am alone, in saying that any preoccupation I might have with someone else’s spiritual belief is concern for his soul. That is not to say that someone of another religion may not end up in heaven and I don’t.

I think a very tiny minority has a malevolent attitude against those of other religions when speaking of “no salvation outside the Church”. Most of us know that “but for the grace of God, go I.”

I don’t think that minority is “very tiny,” or maybe I’ve just read too many posts at CAF, where there seems to be an obsession on the part of some with filling up Hell.

 

[JReducation]

I appreciate the clarity of your answer.

I will speak for myself, but I doubt I am alone, in saying that any preoccupation I might have with someone else’s spiritual belief is concern for his soul.

I think a very tiny minority has a malevolent attitude against those of other religions when speaking of “no salvation outside the Church”.

I don’t think that minority is “very tiny,” or maybe I’ve just read too many posts at CAF, where there seems to be an obsession on the part of some with filling up Hell.

I wouldn’t use the word malevolent, because I don’t think that it’s done with malicious intent.

I agree with Ryan, the minority is not insignificant. Just look around the Internet.

Even though they are having the same negative effect, I don’t believe that the reason is the same.

Here are what I have seen as motivators for these folks who are so over preoccupied with the salvation of Jews and Muslims.

1. An obsession.
2. A misunderstanding of what the Church has always taught
3. A fear of being associated with either group
4. It can also be a way of deflecting. If I pay enough attention to what is wrong with them, I won’t see what is wrong with us.
5. We fail to pay attention to how we look to Muslims and Jews. When they look at Christians they see the atrocities that we have committed against humanity. They see how we hate each other. They can look at Catholics on the Internet and hear the calling each other Modernists, heretics, apostate and some words that are not fit for children or polite audiences. However, we’re trying to market ourselves as the means to salvation. This failure to admit to others that we’re just as bad as they are or maybe worse, because we know better can certainly turn off any intelligent Muslim or Jew.
6. Given our human condition, most human beings tend to be very arrogant and Christians are not an exception. We assume that the other person

a. Believes that we’re telling the truth, because we believe it.

b. We’re as clear as ice and the other person should understand us, but are refusing to do so.

c. We think that the other person should trust our judgment, without us putting any effort to gain that person’s trust.

d. We assume that all Christians can become active evangelists, which is not the case at all. Not everyone is a good communicator. For some, the best form of evangelization is to keep their mouths shut, pray and live the Gospel in a very visible way.

What happens in this over zealous group is that none of this points are every considered by the would be evangelist. He goes out there, fails to convert, succeeds in antagonizing, and blames the other person without checking himself and how he is perceived. It’s always someone else’s fault.

I’ll always remember a letter that Clare wrote to Agnes of Prague in which she tells of Francis’ chagrin at not having converted the Sultan and his royal house. When he came back from this mission he felt that he should retire to a cloistered monastery, because he was a failure as an evangelist. No one could talk Francis out of his blues.

Francis shares his disappointment with Clare. We don’t know how she said it, but it must of been blunt, because Clare was a very blunt person. She told him that he needed to focus on converting Catholics, at which he was good and who needed it more than the Saracens (as was their term then). She was convinced that there were more Catholics in hell than Muslims, because Catholics knew better. The point that she was making was that not everyone is called to the same kind of evangelization or to evangelize the same people. Sometimes, you have to let God decide how things are going to go down and who’s going to do it. You have to work with what God has given to you.

Leave it to a woman to hit the nail right on the head.

This minority, which is growing, is not like Clare: logical, clever, honest about themselves, honest about the Church’s track record, able to see itself through the eyes of its audience and wise enough to see it’s strengths and weaknesses. Work on fixing its weaknesses and use its strengths correctly.

It’s almost passe to say that we’re interested in the salvation of souls. It’s easy to say, but not easy to do it right. One has to begin at home.

I believe this is why Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have spent so many years just working on trying to build a relationship with these folks with one hand and trying to clean up the face of Catholics with the other hand. It’s a balance of building trust and credibility before you go telling someone else that you have the pearl of great price.

This is what has made the ministry of the Franciscans and Carmelites in the Holy Land so successful. If we look at the Christians in the Holy Land, the Custos, who has been Franciscan for 800 years and will be Franciscan until the Second Coming, has never allowed the Catholics to engage in the nonsense that the Orthodox do.

The local people find the Franciscans and Carmelites,the two largest Latin Catholic presence there, to be absolutely charming and reliable. There have been many conversions over the centuries, albeit you can’t make public who and how many, because of safety reasons. Some people live in dangerous parts of the region. But I also saw communities of Jews, Muslims and Catholics living in peace. Right in the center was either a Carmelite Priory or a Franciscan Friary with all kinds of ministries for the three faiths: Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[patrick457]

I wouldn’t use the word malevolent, because I don’t think that it’s done with malicious intent.

I agree with Ryan, the minority is not insignificant. Just look around the Internet.

Even though they are having the same negative effect, I don’t believe that the reason is the same.

Here are what I have seen as motivators for these folks who are so over preoccupied with the salvation of Jews and Muslims.

1. An obsession.
2. A misunderstanding of what the Church has always taught
3. A fear of being associated with either group
4. It can also be a way of deflecting. If I pay enough attention to what is wrong with them, I won’t see what is wrong with us.
5. We fail to pay attention to how we look to Muslims and Jews. When they look at Christians they see the atrocities that we have committed against humanity. They see how we hate each other. They can look at Catholics on the Internet and hear the calling each other Modernists, heretics, apostate and some words that are not fit for children or polite audiences. However, we’re trying to market ourselves as the means to salvation. This failure to admit to others that we’re just as bad as they are or maybe worse, because we know better can certainly turn off any intelligent Muslim or Jew.
6. Given our human condition, most human beings tend to be very arrogant and Christians are not an exception. We assume that the other person

a. Believes that we’re telling the truth, because we believe it.

b. We’re as clear as ice and the other person should understand us, but are refusing to do so.

c. We think that the other person should trust our judgment, without us putting any effort to gain that person’s trust.

d. We assume that all Christians can become active evangelists, which is not the case at all. Not everyone is a good communicator. For some, the best form of evangelization is to keep their mouths shut, pray and live the Gospel in a very visible way.

What happens in this over zealous group is that none of this points are every considered by the would be evangelist. He goes out there, fails to convert, succeeds in antagonizing, and blames the other person without checking himself and how he is perceived. It’s always someone else’s fault.

I’ll always remember a letter that Clare wrote to Agnes of Prague in which she tells of Francis’ chagrin at not having converted the Sultan and his royal house. When he came back from this mission he felt that he should retire to a cloistered monastery, because he was a failure as an evangelist. No one could talk Francis out of his blues.

Francis shares his disappointment with Clare. We don’t know how she said it, but it must of been blunt, because Clare was a very blunt person. She told him that he needed to focus on converting Catholics, at which he was good and who needed it more than the Saracens (as was their term then). She was convinced that there were more Catholics in hell than Muslims, because Catholics knew better. The point that she was making was that not everyone is called to the same kind of evangelization or to evangelize the same people. Sometimes, you have to let God decide how things are going to go down and who’s going to do it. You have to work with what God has given to you.

Leave it to a woman to hit the nail right on the head.

This minority, which is growing, is not like Clare: logical, clever, honest about themselves, honest about the Church’s track record, able to see itself through the eyes of its audience and wise enough to see it’s strengths and weaknesses. Work on fixing its weaknesses and use its strengths correctly.

It’s almost passe to say that we’re interested in the salvation of souls. It’s easy to say, but not easy to do it right. One has to begin at home.

I believe this is why Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have spent so many years just working on trying to build a relationship with these folks with one hand and trying to clean up the face of Catholics with the other hand. It’s a balance of building trust and credibility before you go telling someone else that you have the pearl of great price.

This is what has made the ministry of the Franciscans and Carmelites in the Holy Land so successful. If we look at the Christians in the Holy Land, the Custos, who has been Franciscan for 800 years and will be Franciscan until the Second Coming, has never allowed the Catholics to engage in the nonsense that the Orthodox do.

The local people find the Franciscans and Carmelites,the two largest Latin Catholic presence there, to be absolutely charming and reliable. There have been many conversions over the centuries, albeit you can’t make public who and how many, because of safety reasons. Some people live in dangerous parts of the region. But I also saw communities of Jews, Muslims and Catholics living in peace. Right in the center was either a Carmelite Priory or a Franciscan Friary with all kinds of ministries for the three faiths: Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Rich_C]

I don’t think that minority is “very tiny,” or maybe I’ve just read too many posts at CAF, where there seems to be an obsession on the part of some with filling up Hell.

The people who have the time and interest to post on an given Internet forum are not a random sampling, so I’d hardly say they represent a given group.

Honestly, I know very few Catholics who spend much time thinking about the Jewish people and I am not one of them. Of those I know who do, most are fascinated by Jewish customs because they grew up in a “beige Catholicism” that didn’t teach them about Catholic customs or traditions, so they are fascinated at seeing a people who actually connect with their history.

 

[JReducation]

The people who have the time and interest to post on an given Internet forum are not a random sampling, so I’d hardly say they represent a given group.

Honestly, I know very few Catholics who spend much time thinking about the Jewish people and I am not one of them. Of those I know who do, most are fascinated by Jewish customs because they grew up in a “beige Catholicism” that didn’t teach them about Catholic customs or traditions, so they are fascinated at seeing a people who actually connect with their history.

I would have preferred that you had chosen another term. As a Jew, I find that term a little offensive. Catholics who understand Judaism have a much better understanding of Catholic customs and history than those who are indifferent to it.

Look at some of our great Catholic thinkers and how well the understood Judaism:

Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Innocent III, John de Matha, Dominic, John Henry Newman, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Teresa of Calcutta, Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Miriam, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Cardinal Avery Dulles and Benedict XVI. These people had a strong positive influence on Jews and Catholics alike, especially in the area of fraternal relations and trust building. Their faith is not beige at all. It’s quite strong.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[OraLabora]

I would have preferred that you had chosen another term. As a Jew, I find that term a little offensive. Catholics who understand Judaism have a much better understanding of Catholic customs and history than those who are indifferent to it.

Look at some of our great Catholic thinkers and how well the understood Judaism:

Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Innocent III, John de Matha, Dominic, John Henry Newman, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Teresa of Calcutta, Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Miriam, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Cardinal Avery Dulles and Benedict XVI. These people had a strong positive influence on Jews and Catholics alike, especially in the area of fraternal relations and trust building. Their faith is not beige at all. It’s quite strong.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

You hit the nail right on the head (again). I can’t speak for others on the forum or in the pew, but my fascination for Judaism comes not because I haven’t been taught Catholic traditions and customs (I have) but because I want to understand Catholic customs and traditions better; in particular the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist and its connection to the Passover seder, the chanting of the psalms and how this evolved into the Liturgy of the Hours, and the context of Jesus’s life and ministry.

In many cases, context is everything, and knowing the Jewish context of their traditions, the life of Jesus, and the source of our own traditions, is essential to properly understanding them.

The Jewish people have received so much from God, and in turn the Jewish people have given us so much of what they received both in traditions and our understanding of the God, that we owe them far more than most Catholics realize. The more I read and ponder about this subject, the more I also understand why the Church so vehemently warns against anti-semitism, and why she teaches that the Jewish people still have a place in the story of the salvation of humanity. And the more I ponder this the more I am struck with awe for God and the more my own faith deepens.

 

[Rich_C]

I would have preferred that you had chosen another term. As a Jew, I find that term a little offensive. Catholics who understand Judaism have a much better understanding of Catholic customs and history than those who are indifferent to it.

Look at some of our great Catholic thinkers and how well the understood Judaism:

Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Innocent III, John de Matha, Dominic, John Henry Newman, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Teresa of Calcutta, Edith Stein, Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Miriam, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Cardinal Avery Dulles and Benedict XVI. These people had a strong positive influence on Jews and Catholics alike, especially in the area of fraternal relations and trust building. Their faith is not beige at all. It’s quite strong.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I borrowed the phrase from Fr. Robert Barron, who narrates the well-known television program “Catholicism.” Any offense was unintended and unforeseen. I’m sure that what you’re saying it true, but my experience is like I said.

 

[TrueLight]

I don’t think that minority is “very tiny,” or maybe I’ve just read too many posts at CAF, where there seems to be an obsession on the part of some with filling up Hell.

No, some of us just realize that there is a hell and pretending hell is empty is not going to help anyone.

 

[TrueLight]

It’s almost passe to say that we’re interested in the salvation of souls.

Not everyone is called to evangelize and not everyone knows how to evangelize, but that doesn’t mean one can’t get better. God can use the imperfect to do his will.

 

[clem456]

I think it is human nature to put God in an individualist “box”, and believe that God exists the way I am able to understand Him, and He can’t be other than that understanding, cannot be more than that understanding.
That makes it difficult to see that others who are different from us may be chosen (saved) by God also, even though they do not believe exactly as we do.
Is salvation a zero-sum game? In our world, If I get a promotion, someone else gets rejected out of some deficiency. If I’m at the head of the class, everybody else is second.
In the words of Henri Nouwen, “if we accept that we are chosen, God gives us eyes to see the chosen-ness of others”.