A Roman Catholic Who finds out their Jewish

[Rich_C]

I think it is human nature to put God in an individualist “box”, and believe that God exists the way I am able to understand Him, and He can’t be other than that understanding, cannot be more than that understanding.
That makes it difficult to see that others who are different from us may be chosen (saved) by God also, even though they do not believe exactly as we do.
Is salvation a zero-sum game? In our world, If I get a promotion, someone else gets rejected out of some deficiency. If I’m at the head of the class, everybody else is second.
In the words of Henri Nouwen, “if we accept that we are chosen, God gives us eyes to see the chosen-ness of others”.

St. Paul describes salvation as a race to be run. It’s too soon to “accept that * am chosen.” That’s the world’s way: easy salvation. If I’m not sure of it, I am also unsure of anyone else’s salvation. I only know that Our Lord established one Way, and if He makes exceptions, I’m glad because I’m not jealous of the Kingdom of Heaven, but I know He didn’t tell us to rely on being an exception, He told us to believe in Him and follow His commandments, including being baptized, eating His flesh, and being forgiven by His apostles. That’s what I’m trying to do and since He said its the Way, I pray especially for those that don’t choose it.*

 

[OraLabora]

I only know that Our Lord established one Way,

I’m not certain that God only established “one way”. I think He established a Church to show us a way; the best way, as an instrument of spreading Truth and God’s love on Earth.

and if He makes exceptions, I’m glad because I’m not jealous of the Kingdom of Heaven, but I know He didn’t tell us to rely on being an exception, He told us to believe in Him and follow His commandments, including being baptized, eating His flesh, and being forgiven by His apostles. That’s what I’m trying to do and since He said its the Way, I pray especially for those that don’t choose it.

As Br. JR aptly says, God cannot be handcuffed. We cannot place restrictions on what He can or cannot do. When the Church says: “no salvation outside the Church”, it literally is a message to us Catholics saying “don’t bother looking outside the Church for your salvation, you’ll find nothing better than what is in the Church you are in already”. She is not saying that non-Catholics cannot be saved.

When you say “I pray especially for those that don’t choose it”, you have to realize that for the vast majority of people around the world, it isn’t a matter of “choice”. To choose it, you have to know it. Just not know about it, but know it. There’s very little opportunity for billions in the world to learn about it and to be catechized.

The Church’s mission of course, is to bring the fullness of Truth to the world. But that’s a mission that won’t be accomplished until the last day. Meanwhile, what happens to the billions of people who are not Catholic… not through making the wrong “choice”, but because they were born into other faith communities?

God is not only perfectly just, we cannot lose sight of the fact that He is also perfectly merciful. Those born outside the Church’s visible boundaries, He will not simply cast aside; somehow men and women of good will who seek Him to the best of their abilities and knowledge that they have access to, will find themselves inside the Church’s invisible boundaries, the boundaries that only God sees because He defines them Himself.

Of course for those brought up into the Church, the bar is set much higher. But even then, I suspect that if someone is driven away by poor catechesis, or by say, misconduct by the clergy (think sexual abuse scandal), the biggest weight of fault will not reside on the person driven away but on the person guilty of the misconduct.

At the end, we are all dependent on God’s mercy.

 

[RyanBlack]

No, some of us just realize that there is a hell and pretending hell is empty is not going to help anyone.

Some people obviously are interested in filling up hell–it’s almost as if they delight in the thought of as many souls as possible spending an eternity in the tortures of hell. It’s so obvious as to be practically palpable. I really don’t understand how you can’t see this.

 

[JReducation]

I borrowed the phrase from Fr. Robert Barron, who narrates the well-known television program “Catholicism.” Any offense was unintended and unforeseen. I’m sure that what you’re saying it true, but my experience is like I said.

Father Barron uses the term in a different context. Context is everything. He is referring to a bland period in faith formation, but he’s not bringing in other faiths and other ethnic groups into the sentence. I remember when he used the term. I kind of liked it. I had always used the term “bland” and beige seemed better.

Not everyone is called to evangelize and not everyone knows how to evangelize, but that doesn’t mean one can’t get better. God can use the imperfect to do his will.

Evangelization takes on many forms. People think evangelization is always about direct teaching. Evangelization is part of the pastoral mission of the Church. But if we look at our 2,000 year history, the best evangelists have never been seen or heard. I’m speaking now about Carthusian hermits. The Church acknowledges them as being called to the highest order of evangelization and acknowledges that they have a great influence in the salvation of souls than all the other work that we do put together. Yet, there are about 500 of them at any given time.

My point is that people must understand that between the Carthusian hermit and the religious educator in a classroom, there is a spectrum of evangelists and methods of evangelization. One has to find his place in that spectrum, because we’re not all the same. If we try to do what another should be doing, but don’t have the gifts that the other person does, we’re only going to do damage.

I’ll give you a simple example. I do not teach children and will never teach children. I do not do First Communion preparation, for example. Why not? I did it once and I was a disaster. I cannot reduce the faith to bullets. It’s not in my nature. When I read the Baltimore Catechism, “God made us to know him, to love him, to serve him and be happy with him forever in heaven.” My mind immediately goes to, “This is a conclusion that Aquinas reached based on this and that.” “To know, Aquinas means this, which comes from Augustine’s gnosis.” “To serve is better explained by Bonaventure in the Itinerarium when he speaks of laying aside one’s thinking, because unless we think like God we cannot serve God.” “To be happy is a colloquial expression that Aquinas used, because eternal happiness is incomprehensible to the human mind as St. John and St Polycarp explain.” Etc Etc. Etc.

However, when I’m at a seminary, a university, an adult retreat or writing, I feel much more comfortable and I can think clearly. When I’m sitting on the street corner with a dad who has never heard Catholicism, but only knows that there is such a thing as Catholics, I have no problem evangelizing. All I have to do is hang out and do what Francis did, answer questions and be a brother to him. Grace takes care of the rest. Don’t throw me into a pool with children who can’t do abstract thinking or with adults who can’t do historical theology. I become very tense, because I feel that I’m leaving out so many important pieces.

On the other hand, I know people who are naturals in such situations. One of my favorite people is a woman who has been a religious educator for more than 40 years. She has very little theological training. She does not need it for working with elementary school kids. She needs very basic doctrine, morals, scripture, Church law, and knowledge of liturgy. She’s absolutely awesome. Kids leave her elementary CCD class and continue to follow her way until college. Through her, they remain very connected to the Church. That’s her place on the spectrum. She would be unable to do what I do, but I can’t do what she does.

As to your face, I said it was passe, because it’s a term that the preaching orders rarely use, because it’s been over used, such as “I love you.” Just as one must love, one must also be concerned about the salvation of souls. However, in the formation of mendicants and preaching orders, we’re taught to focus on bringing Christ to those who have not yet met him. The end is the same, the salvation of souls, the goal is to bring Christ to men and men to love Christ. Our language is very descriptive. It says, “This is what we’re going to do.” It’s what I would call very active language.

No, there is nothing wrong with being concerned with the salvation of souls. It’s just an expression that is over used. When people overuse something, the hearer misses the importance of the wording. Again, never think that I believe it’s not important to care for souls. That would be outrageous to the extreme. Sorry to confuse you or anyone else.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Rich_C]

I’m not certain that God only established “one way”. I think He established a Church to show us a way; the best way, as an instrument of spreading Truth and God’s love on Earth.

I guess I just understand the Church differently than you do. I see it as “the one way” to which God may allow exceptions out of mercy for the invincibly ignorant. To me, that doesn’t mean that there are other ways, because if someone knows what the Church teaches, they have no choice but to enter it if they want to reach Heaven.

She is not saying that non-Catholics cannot be saved.

I already said that (read “exceptions” in my previous posts).

Of course for those brought up into the Church, the bar is set much higher.

Actually, the bar is much lower for Catholics. We don’t need perfect contrition since we have access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation where God makes up for what is lacking in our repentance. We can also gain indulgences instead of doing hard penance. We have access to grace from Holy Communion that strengthens us. A mediocre Catholic may well see Heaven; non-Catholics have to be much holier, if you follow the Church’s logic. We have accepted the yoke that is easy, the burden that is light.

At the end, we are all dependent on God’s mercy.

Absolutely. Being Catholic is no assurance of salvation. I really do not know where I will end up in eternity. I try to pray and do penance and hope that I will persevere until the end.

 

[Rich_C]

Father Barron uses the term in a different context. Context is everything. He is referring to a bland period in faith formation, but he’s not bringing in other faiths and other ethnic groups into the sentence. I remember when he used the term. I kind of liked it. I had always used the term “bland” and beige seemed better.

I submit to your judgment, brother although I think I meant exactly what you’re saying he meant.

 

[JReducation]

I guess I just understand the Church differently than you do. I see it as “the one way” to which God may allow exceptions out of mercy for the invincibly ignorant. To me, that doesn’t mean that there are other ways, because if someone knows what the Church teaches, they have no choice but to enter it if they want to reach Heaven.

I already said that (read “exceptions” in my previous posts).

I think that what Ora is saying is what Bl. John Paul, the CCC and Pope Benedict mean when they say that there are elements of the Church to be found outside of her boundaries. That’s first.

Second, they accept that Christ uses these faiths as a means to salvation.

Third, the reason that he can use them is not because of what they’re missing, but because of what they have that truly belongs to the Church. The salvation still comes through the Church. In this, there is no change of doctrine. The change is in how ecclesiology is being formulated. Instead of starting with what’s missing in other faiths, they begin with what’s present.

One can compare it to the salvation of a Catholic. We know that there is much missing in our life of faith. We are far from perfect. However, God uses what is there to save us. He’s not demanding perfection. He’s assessing fidelity to what we know and what it possible for us.

This is the same for people of other faiths. We cannot assume that because the Catholic Church says that it is the only way to salvation that others have to accept that, nor can we assume that God even expects others to accept this at face value. God does not create idiots. God creates man in his image and likeness. Two of the several attributes that we share with God are intelligence and freedom.

An intelligent man is going to use his freedom to discern and will not take whatever doctrine is thrown at him at face value.

The next quality that we share with God is the ability for honesty. Every man has a moral obligation to honestly search for truth. We’re not speaking here about people who look for loopholes. We’re speaking about people who are honestly trying to do what is right. Just like the Catholic who is trying to do what is right, but misses the mark, is not sent to hell, because of God’s mercy, so to the non-believer is treated with the same mercy. In both cases, the individuals are making use of what they have and trust to be the good. At the end of the day, God’s greatest concern is that man chooses the highest good that is known to him (man).

Actually, the bar is much lower for Catholics. We don’t need perfect contrition since we have access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation where God makes up for what is lacking in our repentance.

Not quite the way that the Sacrament of Reconciliation works, but that’s another subject.

We can also gain indulgences instead of doing hard penance. We have access to grace from Holy Communion that strengthens us. A mediocre Catholic may well see Heaven; non-Catholics have to be much holier, if you follow the Church’s logic.

This is not quite the Church’s logic. Again, a topic for another thread.

 

[JReducation]

I submit to your judgment, brother although I think I meant exactly what you’re saying he meant.

If you’re using it to mean bland, we can agree on that. As I said before, we have to agree on context. Context can color the meaning of words, especially if you’re speaking to a Jewish person about Judaism.

One of the biggest turn offs that many Jews find among certain Christians is arrogance. Judaism does not assert that it is the only means to salvation. It asserts that it has a special relationship with God, but it does not deny that others are incapable of also having a special relationship with God. Judaism operates out of the belief that God will choose whomever he chooses and it’s not for us to say who that will be.

When some Christians write or speak, their chose of words, tone of voice or even their body language comes across as if to say that the Church believes that Catholics are all that and a bag of chips. In other words, they sound very condescending. Even if I were to speak great truths and I did not have love, I would be a failure. St. Paul tries to remind us of this. Condescension is not the means to show love.

One of the qualities found among the Dominicans in Spain during the 14th and 15th century, when they were sent to the Jews and Muslims, was their ability to preach to the masses with great respect, kindness, and a very mild manner. They were truly sons of their father Dominic. They went in as very poor men who came from the bottom up, almost as a young child or a puppy trying to get the attention of an adult. The Spanish Jews and Spanish Muslims listened and wanted to hear more from them.

I wish we had videos of those preachers, not just letters from the witnesses. It would be great to watch them and see how they very humbly preached Christian truth and at the same time they always reminded the people to whom they were preaching that these truths belong to Christ, but that they (the friars) were far more sinful and in greater danger of losing their souls than the Jews and Muslims. They got positive attention from their audience, warmed their hearts with humility, engaged their mind with Christian wisdom and acknowledged that the audience also have something that they appreciated. They were politically correct long before anyone ever heard of such a term. They were preachers and true diplomats in the fullest sense of the word. They knew what to say, how to say it and when to say it. They also knew when to be quiet and let their presence be their preaching.

I think that we have two ineffective extremes creeping up. On the one side there is indifference, which is the basis for the culture of relativism. On the other side there is callousness, which is the basis for a culture of conflict rather than evangelization.

We cannot assume that everything is fine when it’s not. We cannot be so callous as to assume that no one else wants to do what is right and no one else is thinking except us, especially if you want to get the attention of the Jewish people. These models are based on very bad ecclesiology.

Jewish people can be very arrogant. I know, I’m Jewish. If a Catholic comes across as arrogant, he’s going to run into a brick wall. He has to approach as a beggar. That’s what has endeared Dominicans and Franciscans to Jews. Both schools are intelligent, which the Jews admire. They are very humble, which they also admire. They do not make waves, so they are non threatening. They show great admiration and enthusiasm for anything that they find among Jews that is Christian. There are few Jews who do not respond well to positive recognition.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Rich_C]

If you’re using it to mean bland, we can agree on that.

Sorry, brother that’s all I meant, and I wasn’t even talking about Judaism (maybe that wasn’t clear).

I think we’re just talking on such different levels that we aren’t really talking. I can’t even follow how your posts address my posts anymore. That’s fine. God made you a superior and me a layman for a reason.

 

[JReducation]

Sorry, brother that’s all I meant, and I wasn’t even talking about Judaism (maybe that wasn’t clear).

I think we’re just talking on such different levels that we aren’t really talking. I can’t even follow how your posts address my posts anymore. That’s fine. God made you a superior and me a layman for a reason.

Deus eligit stultus.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[ZRight]

youtube.com/watch?v=AY1GG0dyU9Y&feature=plcp

This video explains Judaism pretty well. Rabbinical Judaism is a man made religion.

 

[JReducation]

youtube.com/watch?v=AY1GG0dyU9Y&feature=plcp

This video explains Judaism pretty well. Rabbinical Judaism is a man made religion.

A better authority is the Holy See itself. The Holy See’s position and that of this video are juxtaposed to each other. We must never promote anything that is contrary to what the Holy See says. That’s a very dangerous thing to do.

1. We undermine the work of the Holy See
2. We don’t know the negative effects that our public statements may have on innocent people
3. We show disregard and disrespect for the hierarchy, which is a very poor example to set for non Catholics as we try to convince them that the Catholic Church is the place to be, “But by the way, the pope is wrong on this. That bishop is wrong on that. I’m right on those.”
4. We don’t have the big picture, which the Holy See does.
5. People who make videos or write books are academic authorities, not ecclesial authorities. Only the Holy See can decide how we Catholics deal with other faiths AS Catholics. Whatever one wants to do or say as John Doe is fine. But the moment that one refers to himself as Catholic, one has a duty to represent the Church’s mind and speak with the Church.

It’s contrary to tradition to take a fork on the road when the Church goes down the other side.

The Holy See’s position on Judaism today is very firm and not open to compromise or redefinition regardless of what this video says. Read

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TrueLight]

Some people obviously are interested in filling up hell–it’s almost as if they delight in the thought of as many souls as possible spending an eternity in the tortures of hell. It’s so obvious as to be practically palpable. I really don’t understand how you can’t see this.

Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

How do you know that’s what they want? As is commonly said on CAF, “How can you judge someone’s heart”?

 

[ZRight]

A better authority is the Holy See itself. The Holy See’s position and that of this video are juxtaposed to each other. We must never promote anything that is contrary to what the Holy See says. That’s a very dangerous thing to do.

1. We undermine the work of the Holy See
2. We don’t know the negative effects that our public statements may have on innocent people
3. We show disregard and disrespect for the hierarchy, which is a very poor example to set for non Catholics as we try to convince them that the Catholic Church is the place to be, “But by the way, the pope is wrong on this. That bishop is wrong on that. I’m right on those.”
4. We don’t have the big picture, which the Holy See does.
5. People who make videos or write books are academic authorities, not ecclesial authorities. Only the Holy See can decide how we Catholics deal with other faiths AS Catholics. Whatever one wants to do or say as John Doe is fine. But the moment that one refers to himself as Catholic, one has a duty to represent the Church’s mind and speak with the Church.

It’s contrary to tradition to take a fork on the road when the Church goes down the other side.

The Holy See’s position on Judaism today is very firm and not open to compromise or redefinition regardless of what this video says. Read

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Ok, sorry. I thought that they were pretty inline with Catholic teaching.

 

[OraLabora]

Ok, sorry. I thought that they were pretty inline with Catholic teaching.

I certainly think the Holy See is very cautious about calling any religion “man-made”. After all I’ve heard that accusation thrown at us fairly liberally by Protestants, JWs, etc, and that’s a pretty facile accusation really. I think it’s more useful to state that all religions have elements of truth in them and build on that, seeking those elements held in common with us. It’s certainly more solid ground on which to enter inter-religious dialogue, something that the Holy See encourages.

The loss of temple Judaism, BTW, was an important factor in understanding God’s transcendence. Rather than detracting from our knowledge of God I rather think it brings a different and useful perspective.

The Holy See is also very cautious about which level of inter-religious dialogue we as laity should be engaged in. In short as laity theological dialogue is way above our pay grade

The dialogue of cooperation, building cooperative communities, is where our efforts need to be centered. This in fact comes from Msgr. Andrew V. Tanya-anan, Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue in his address at the World Oblate Congress in Rome in 2009.

 

[JReducation]

Ok, sorry. I thought that they were pretty inline with Catholic teaching.

There is a school out there that denies the line of succession in Judaism, but none of the Megisteriums in 2000 of Catholic history have ever supported that idea. In fact, every action and everything that the popes say supports the direct line of succession from Abraham to today’s Jews.

I always pay very close attention to what popes do and what they don’t say. It’s very telling. When pope after pope refers to the Jewish people as the children of Abraham, despite the transition from priesthood to rabinism, what we’re saying is that we acknowledge the succession.

Terms such as “our older brothers in the faith” are very telling. If today’s Jews were not the same Jews and if they did not share in the same faith of our patriarchs, such a statement would be meaningless. The Church feels so strongly about it that she has put it into her formal writings during these last 25 years or so.

Also, the prayer of Good Friday acknowledges the Jews as the first to receive revelation. Here, we must apply the law of prayer and the law of belief. You don’t pray for those who were the first to receive the Word of God if you believe that they no longer exist. At best, you’re diplomatically correct and say nothing.

Finally, the fact that the Holy See acknowledges every major Jewish holiday and takes the opportunity to send a spiritual message to the Jews is an indicator that the succession is still going. No use sending messages on Passover to those who have no historical connection with Moses.

These fine details are important. There is a wonderful interview with Archbishop Mueller. He is very adamant about the place of the Jews in the mission of the Church and the CDF. He’s so adamant that he’s paraphrasing what the Holy Father said about Bishop Williamson. “He’s not Catholic.” The Holy Father said, “Had we known about his antisemitic positions, we would have separated him from the rest and not lift his excommunication.” The Vatican feels so strongly about this that it preferred to leave a bishop excommunicated rather than “introduce an antisemite into polite company”. Those were the words of Pope Benedict. In short, he’s saying that anyone who has a problem with the Jewish people does not belong in polite society or in the Church.

We have to be very careful who we read on this subject and just as we want to make sure that what we read is consistent with our faith and morals, we must also make sure that what we read and agree with is consistent with the Church’s positions, policies and apostolic endeavors.

Right now, there is a standing rule that no one can enter religious life or the priesthood who holds any belief that the Holy See interprets as antisemite or anti Jewish. Those who say that today’s Jews are not of the Abrahamic line, but are a man made religion are holding a historical perspective that the Church finds to be contrary to revelation and contrary to her faith.

The Jewish people have changed over the centuries. This is true. The Jewish priesthood is gone is also true, but that had to happen. Once the priesthood of Christ is established, there is no need for the Jewish priests. Has Judaism been assaulted by Modernism, Secularism, Materialism and several other Isms just like Christians? Very much so. Probably more so than Christianity. Faithful Jewish families are struggling to transit the faith to their children. It’s like swimming upstream.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV