A sad day at St Martin DePorres, Jensen Beach, FL

[BertBlyleven]

Of course not. The Extraordinary Form was not codified until the Council of Trent. That is (roughly) 400-500 years after the Great Schism. Even after the Great Schism, the concern was not the epiclesis but the fact that they believed that the Churches under the authority of Rome were in heresy and excommunication.

Furthermore, while the word “valid” may be foreign to Eastern Theology, but its concept is not.

Well, since this thread is getting excessively semantical, the Mass of St. Pius V was codified at the Council of Trent, and 1962 missal was not named the Extraordinary Form until 2007. But the differences between the two are minimal (save Holy Week), as are the differences between the Mass of St. Pius V and the pre-schism Roman Rite.

Call it Latin Mass, Traditional Latin Mass, TLM, EF, etc, and I will understand what you all mean since I haven’t been sipping the PC kool-aid.

 

[rciadan]

SSPX is in the process of being regularized, which would allow you to regularly attend their Masses, both in the sense of often and in communion with the Church.

That will not happen for years…

 

[rciadan]

Well, since this thread is getting excessively semantical, the Mass of St. Pius V was codified at the Council of Trent, and 1962 missal was not named the Extraordinary Form until 2007. But the differences between the two are minimal (save Holy Week), as are the differences between the Mass of St. Pius V and the pre-schism Roman Rite.

Call it Latin Mass, Traditional Latin Mass, TLM, EF, etc, and I will understand what you all mean since I haven’t been sipping the PC kool-aid.

Thank you! A person with some sense…

 

[bmadamsberry]

Call it Latin Mass, Traditional Latin Mass, TLM, EF, etc, and I will understand what you all mean since I haven’t been sipping the PC kool-aid.

It’s not about being PC (at least, it shouldn’t be). It’s about a proper understanding of both forms of Mass. The point is that both forms are more (and should be more) intimately linked than previously held. Both should inform and benefit from each other, and should be seen as different forms of the same Mass. This is also held in contrast to the differences between the Divine Liturgies of the Eastern Rites and the Mass of the Latin Rite which are still consecrations of the Eucharist, but do not properly inform each other in the same way and each have a very different history. Furthermore, the Ordinary Form really does flow from the Extraordinary Form. It’s certainly not a perfect flow, but one can see how the Ordinary Form derived from the Extraordinary Form.

So, like I said, it’s not about being politically correct. It’s about creating a proper understanding of Mass in the Latin Rite.

 

[rciadan]

rciadan;9371527:

I am thinking in terms of 100 years.

I understand the “big picture” is in terms of eons, etc. But I must raise my children today. I must take care that they do not suffer the loss of faith now…I, as a father, do not have the luxury of taking the “wait three generations” approach.

Furthermore, if one looks at the abuses occurring 20 or 30 years ago, and the ones today, one might agree that they have dropped in number and severity

I do not agree.(not to say that they are gone and not severe, but rather that they are generally fewer in number and severity).

So, in another 60 years, my guess (hope/prayer, lol) is that they will be rare and generally not horrible.

Again, I do not have the luxury of waiting 60 years, nor do I have the temperament to stand idly by and watch and wait…

I would certainly push Eastern Rite Catholics to attend Divine Liturgy rather than attend a Latin Rite form of the Mass. I think one’s history, culture, and heritage is very

important. Not attending a Mass within one’s rite deemphasizes (is that a word?) that important connection. Of course, if a Latin Rite form of the Mass is the only one possibly available, then that’s a different story. But I would really push someone to attend a Mass that they don’t like/doesn’t properly orient their worship to the extent that they would normally like, rather than attend a different rite’s Mass.Yet, even the Holy Father has said we need to use both lungs of the Church, plus, we have been explicitly given permission to attend these other Rites provided they are in Communion with the Holy See.

I often encounter people who look down on the Ordinary Form and those that attend that form of the Mass (not saying that you do/did that). Therefore I sometimes react stronger and quicker at perceived

arrogance and religious superiority than I should. You, and many others. I was not making any statements about any Rite or Form when I started this thread other than to say I was sorry to see a Mass that had been in place for a quarter century come to a stop, and to invite people whom I know personally who will not go to the OF Mass. Right or wrong, they will not go. Better the Eastern Rite than the SSPX…

I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you did. Rather that many of the things others might think in regards to abuses might instead be unwise/dumb decisions or things that are not appropriate, but at the same time are not abuses.

My personal path and decisions are not based on abuses, etc. Nor are they based on what I do not like about any particular form of Mass. My decisions are based on where I feel called to go. A large part of that is that I will never go anywhere where I am not in Communion with Rome, but that leaves much more latitude that most seem to think. As far as heritage and culture…I was raised Athiest and my culture (German) was mainly Lutheran. I have already left both of those behind…

P.S. Thank you for this continued (and polite!) discussion. It’s been a while since I’ve just been able to sit down and actually discuss something this sensitive (and often volatile) without it descending into name-calling and arguments!

Agreed. I just wish the same could be said for others on this thread…

 

[Laetus]

NO was a term I became used to before the term OF came into common usage. Novus Ordo is the name printed by Rome on the cover of the instuctions for the priest on how to say the Mass. It is not negative, it merely is…

That’s not true. You are factually mistaken.

 

[Laetus]

I would disagree. What do they have in common other that the vernacular. BTW- Latin was the vernacular at the time is was in common usage, and you missed my point that, for me, the language issue was not even a concern to me. Read my posts before you attack me.

The DL is sung, using only the human voice. There are no guitars, no drums, no songs with lyrics that are heretical. How is that similar to the OF. Note that I use “OF” even though either NO or OF are correct…

Some churches use instruments during the celebration of the DL. I know the Greek Orthodox do. Didn’t know that, huh? You mention “guitars” and “drums.” Odd you did not mention pipe organs.

In any event stop it. Even if you heard a song with a “heretical lyric” in it at the celebration of an OF Mass that does not mean it’s part of the Mass formula. It could have been sung at an EF Mass too. You really DO have an agenda. The NO read was right on.

I will not further debate this particular issue on this thread, as it was not the point of the thread. My point in creating this thread was to announce that the “EF” or the Tridentine Mass will no longer be said at St Martin DePorres after June 27 and to let people know of a viable alternative. This alternative is viable and licit whether you like it or not. If you do not, start another thread debating that issue.

Why don’t you take this over to the traditional forum? So you are aware the Ordinary Form of the Mass is also a viable alternative. Those people who “refuse” to attend one might do themselves some good by doing just that – attending one.

 

[Laetus]

“Common usage” among whom? The Church called it “Novus Ordo” once when it was still being formulated. When the Pope calls it “Ordinary Form” then Catholics of good will need to conform with the mind and heart of the Church.

Amen.

In this day and age the use of “NO” or “Novus Ordo” is almost a sure sign (must be well over 90% at this point) that one has a chip on their shoulder regarding the OF Mass.

 

[Cat]

Here’s the question I have about this thread.

Why is the OP posting on CAF, an international Catholic forum, in order to inform parishioners whom he surely knows by now as friends, about the situation in their parish?

Why doesn’t he merely meet and talk with his friends in the parish, or email them directly, to discuss the situation in the parish and the options for Mass that are available in their area? Why put out an announcement to people who, for the most part, will never be in his town?

Here is the paragraph from the OP that I am wondering about:
“After over twenty years of having the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday at St. Martin DePorres, in Jensen Beach, Florida, it has been announced in the bulletin that June 27, 2012, the Latin Mass will be indefinitely suspended. This means no more Latin Mass.
Since the nearest Latin Mass I know of is 90 miles away, I encourage all who attended this Mass to consider attending the Divine Liturgy at Sts Cyril and Methodius, in Ft. Pierce, Florida. It is only 19 miles north of St Martin DePorres and is in full Communion with the Holy See. Below is a link to a map of how to get to this wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. I hope to see you there!”

Of course, maybe this area is in a hugely popular tourist area of Florida that receives a lot of visitors. If so, then I understand the purpose of this thread.

I realize that if the parish has several hundred people, it might be possible that the OP does not know all of them. But surely after 20 years, he knows quite a few of them, and hopefully considers these people his closest friends (other than his family) because they share a love for traditional Catholicism.

And surely these parishioners have some kind of communication system–a phone tree, a directory of phone numbers or emails, a website for the parish or various family websites, Twitter accounts, etc. Surely they all meet for meals or homeschooling or other social events.

If the OP truly doesn’t know anyone else at that parish, then I think maybe that’s a problem. Being part of a parish means more than just attending a Mass and leaving. Shouldn’t parishioners be involved with each other in various ministries and programs in the parish? How about the choir? The religious education program? The evangelization program? The pro-life outreach? Supporting various missions and apostolates? Ministries to help the local poor?

If nothing else, this thread is a good wake-up call for the rest of us. If something dreadful happened in our parish–and definitely losing your Mass is pretty dreadful!–would we able to get hold of others and network/pray with them and figure out a charitable and viable course of action? Do we even know the names of the people who sit with us at each Mass so that we could look them up in the phone book or online?

 

[rciadan]

That’s not true. You are factually mistaken.

No so. I have seen it with my own eyes, thank you.

 

[rciadan]

Some churches use instruments during the celebration of the DL. I know the Greek Orthodox do. Didn’t know that, huh? You mention “guitars” and “drums.” Odd you did not mention pipe organs.

Excuse me, but are you even reading my posts!? I am not talking about Greek Orthodox, which is NOT in Communion with the Holy See. BTW- If an Eastern Parish is abusive, I won’t go there either…

In any event stop it. Even if you heard a song with a “heretical lyric” in it at the celebration of an OF Mass that does not mean it’s part of the Mass formula. It could have been sung at an EF Mass too. You really DO have an agenda. The NO read was right on.

I have said things. I have even been told that I was “too Catholic” and “no longer welcome” in the past, though never was anything like that said at St Martins. ***
In any event, you are so busy being defensive that you are missing the point of this thread*, which is to present an alternative to those whom I know* will not attend* a “OF” Mass…speak to them till you are blue in the face…they will not attend.
I have always stated that any Mass where you have the Blessed Eucharist is a valid Mass. I have often told others that the beauty of Mass is that we bring our imperfections and Mass makes it all perfect in some mysterious way. My personal reasons for attending the DL have nothing to do with abuses or any form of the Latin Rite. Your NO read is dead wrong, my friend. Judge not lest…

Why don’t you take this over to the traditional forum? So you are aware the Ordinary Form of the Mass is also a viable alternative. Those people who “refuse” to attend one might do themselves some good by doing just that – attending one

.I did just that, but somehow I posted twice and the one in there got blocked, or locked, or something.
As for those who will not attend the OF; they have been, and for reasons I do not agree with, simply will not attend the OF. It is to those that I am attempting of offer a different alternative rather than going to the SSPX, which is not in Communion with Rome. If it were, this thread would never have been started.

 

[TrueLight]

It is a ad fact that this TLM is no longer available for these parishioners because:

1. The TLM still not available in many parishes and in fact there is resistant to it by some.
2. Some people are nourished by this form, which by the way, the Holy Father acknowledges.

So if suddenly folks do not have a Latin Mass near them, it is a big deal.

I know it’s hard for some to get this, but it is.

 

[rciadan]

Here’s the question I have about this thread.

Why is the OP posting on CAF, an international Catholic forum, in order to inform parishioners whom he surely knows by now as friends, about the situation in their parish?

Why doesn’t he merely meet and talk with his friends in the parish, or email them directly, to discuss the situation in the parish and the options for Mass that are available in their area? Why put out an announcement to people who, for the most part, will never be in his town?

Because many of them I do not know other than having talked them at the Mass from time to time. I do not know the names, numbers, or emails of the vast majority of them; though, I do know their sentiments…

Of course, maybe this area is in a hugely popular tourist area of Florida that receives a lot of visitors. If so, then I understand the purpose of this thread.

And yes, this is a tourist community

I realize that if the parish has several hundred people, it might be possible that the OP does not know all of them. But surely after 20 years, he knows quite a few of them, and hopefully considers these people his closest friends (other than his family) because they share a love for traditional Catholicism.

Not so. I have not been here nearly that long, and many of those in attendance live nowhere near me even though they travel great distance to come to the EF at St Martin DePorres. Only a very few are actual friends, and those I have discussed this with. In fact it was one of those who invited me to Sts Cyril and Methodius in the first place…

And surely these parishioners have some kind of communication system–a phone tree, a directory of phone numbers or emails, a website for the parish or various family websites, Twitter accounts, etc. Surely they all meet for meals or homeschooling or other social events.

You make unfounded assumptions. One thing I have noticed about many who attend the EF that I have found interesting is the seemingly lack of socialization. Once Mass is over they leave. The majority speak to no one, before or after Mass. I have found those that attend the EF exclusively to be a sort of “odd lot” in various ways. Others may feel different and want to debate me, but I am merely stating anectdotal findings.

If the OP truly doesn’t know anyone else at that parish, then I think maybe that’s a problem. Being part of a parish means more than just attending a Mass and leaving. Shouldn’t parishioners be involved with each other in various ministries and programs in the parish? How about the choir? The religious education program? The evangelization program? The pro-life outreach? Supporting various missions and apostolates? Ministries to help the local poor?

No, it is not a “problem”. Thank you for being so judgmental about a situation you know nothing about…
These people are not part of the parish, in the sense that someone who travels 2 to 3 hours to attend the Mass on Sunday probably does not have that kind of time on most days of the week to get involved with the day to day ministries. The ones in the choir, I know. Most of them are also in the OF choir and are more balanced in their views. Most of those who attend the EF use the Baltimore Catechism, which is not allowed in most parishes. They would never let their children attend CCD. I, for one, did not have my children attend CCD either. By the time they were old enough to attend, we had taught them so much they knew more than half the teachers and, even at the 6th and 7th grade levels were bored to tears because it was all so “dumbed down” to the lowest common denominator. At 8 years old, these kids still had to be taught who Jesus is! Many, if the the vast majority of the ones I have had discussions with are extremely active int the pro life communities, but at their local level in the areas they live in, which, again, is often multiple hours away from where they attend Mass. They do the same with various ministries, etc. at the local level where they live.

If nothing else, this thread is a good wake-up call for the rest of us. If something dreadful happened in our parish–and definitely losing your Mass is pretty dreadful!–would we able to get hold of others and network/pray with them and figure out a charitable and viable course of action? Do we even know the names of the people who sit with us at each Mass so that we could look them up in the phone book or online?

I thought I was doing something charitable! Most of those I have talked to are on CA and maybe reading this thread. But look how I have been treated for doing so. I hope when the time comes, you receive more charitable responses than I…

 

[rciadan]

Amen.

In this day and age the use of “NO” or “Novus Ordo” is almost a sure sign (must be well over 90% at this point) that one has a chip on their shoulder regarding the OF Mass.

I guess I am a 10% er then ( and I doubt your figures as I am guessing you took them off the top of your head…). It is merely a term to me. One that I first saw in writing on the Book that is used by the priest for instructions on how to say Mass, and which feast day to celebrate, etc. If it was a term that Rome used, I have no problem with it. I have never considered it negative in any way, and from what I am told, it has only been referred to as “OF” within the past couple of years or so. What did you call it before that?
I think that those who react so violently to the mere use of a word are the ones with “chips” on their shoulders, by the way. Liberal word police, is how I think of them…grow skin…

 

[rciadan]

Maybe it is not a real decree.

Would you deny that an instruction written by the Holy Father himself is a decree? Please, do a little research before you post nonsense…

 

[Cathryn]

Would you deny that an instruction written by the Holy Father himself is a decree? Please, do a little research before you post nonsense…

Using the word "should’ indicates that it is not a decree or command. My pastor is a canon lawyer and does not see this as a decree by the Holy Father that he must say the EF.

 

[Laetus]

I guess I am a 10% er then ( and I doubt your figures as I am guessing you took them off the top of your head…). It is merely a term to me. One that I first saw in writing on the Book that is used by the priest for instructions on how to say Mass, and which feast day to celebrate, etc. If it was a term that Rome used, I have no problem with it. I have never considered it negative in any way, and from what I am told, it has only been referred to as “OF” within the past couple of years or so. What did you call it before that?
I think that those who react so violently to the mere use of a word are the ones with “chips” on their shoulders, by the way. Liberal word police, is how I think of them…grow skin…

It was pretty clear in your first posting that you have something against the OF Mass. The fact that you used “NO Mass” to describe the OF Mass (because it’s easier to type, right?) reflects terribly on you.

You’re also wrong about the “book in Rome.” It does not say “novus ordo.” The Pope gave us the labels OF and EF. He does not use “NO” or “novus ordo.” If you don’t have the class the follow the Pope’s lead then that’s on you.

Keep on hating the OF. Your numbers are getting smaller and smaller.

 

[TrueLight]

Keep on hating the OF. Your numbers are getting smaller and smaller.

Nice. Are you praying every day that the TLM goes away?

 

[bmadamsberry]

Nice. Are you praying every day that the TLM goes away?

I’m praying that those hate and look down on the Ordinary Form go away! There is a difference between disliking the Ordinary Form and disliking the abuses that sometimes occur with it. Two very different things! Abuses are not exclusive to the Ordinary Form, and they are not a result of the Ordinary Form itself but rather the result of people.

 

[BertBlyleven]

I’m praying that those hate and look down on the Ordinary Form go away! There is a difference between disliking the Ordinary Form and disliking the abuses that sometimes occur with it. Two very different things! Abuses are not exclusive to the Ordinary Form, and they are not a result of the Ordinary Form itself but rather the result of people.

I agree. Let’s go troll Pray Tell!

The Church has many religious and societies who dislike both the Ordinary Form and also the abuses it has. They are increasing in vocations.