A sad day at St Martin DePorres, Jensen Beach, FL

[rciadan]

It was pretty clear in your first posting that you have something against the OF Mass. The fact that you used “NO Mass” to describe the OF Mass (because it’s easier to type, right?) reflects terribly on you.

I have nothing against the OF, regardless of what is “clear” to you.

You’re also wrong about the “book in Rome.” It does not say “novus ordo.” The Pope gave us the labels OF and EF. He does not use “NO” or “novus ordo.” If you don’t have the class the follow the Pope’s lead then that’s on you.

The book I saw, with my own eyes, dates back to before the terms you are referring to even existed! The Pope did not refer to OF and EF until 2007! Are you an idiot or do you just play one on tv!!!

Keep on hating the OF. Your numbers are getting smaller and smaller.

I hate nothing nor no one, but it is clear you hate anyone who does not agree with you…

 

[Cathryn]

In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

If people who lose the EF refuse to even go to the ordinary form of the Mass then the welfare of the faithful is “not in harmony with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish.” They would rather spend eternity in hell than go to the OF of the Mass. The vatican in this document is calling for avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church by providing the EF and ensuring the welfare of the faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish.
I really wish and pray that the people recognize the value of both forms of the Mass. When we talk about the superiority (intrinsic/ extrinsic) of one form or the other, or talk of refusing to even go to Mass if it is not going to be EF, then how is this showing any kind of harmony with the parish? How are we promoting unity of the whole Church and avoiding discord? These are concerns of my pastor and why he has not provided the EF himself, in his parish. What happens when he is transferred? Are people going to refuse to even go to church? The faithful need to have an understanding of the Mass that is in accord with Church teaching. When this is lacking there is not going to be harmony in the parish. My pastor is not to provide the EF if he can not ensure the welfare of the faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of his parish.

 

[ProVobis]

This is why my pastor will not start the TLM at our parish, although he has been trained to do so. He is seriously concerned about his parishioners developing this mindset.

This I don’t understand. Wasn’t the whole idea to get more people to come to Mass? Nothing against your pastor but attendance is already less than 25%, which means 75% are at the risk of eternal damnation, and we are still trying to suppress liturgies?

 

[Laetus]

If people who lose the EF refuse to even go to the ordinary form of the Mass then the welfare of the faithful is “not in harmony with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish.” They would rather spend eternity in hell than go to the OF of the Mass. The vatican in this document is calling for avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church by providing the EF and ensuring the welfare of the faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish.

That is a HUGE point. rciadan says that some who used to attend the EF Mass with him won’t attend the OF Mass as if it’s a given, as if that’s OK. It’s not. It needs to be addressed. The last thing a tiny Eastern Catholic parish needs is an influx of bitter Latin Rite Catholics with this mindset. The resulting gossip can absolutely poison a parish.

Cathryn:

I really wish and pray that the people recognize the value of both forms of the Mass. When we talk about the superiority (intrinsic/ extrinsic) of one form or the other, or talk of refusing to even go to Mass if it is not going to be EF, then how is this showing any kind of harmony with the parish? How are we promoting unity of the whole Church and avoiding discord? These are concerns of my pastor and why he has not provided the EF himself, in his parish. What happens when he is transferred? Are people going to refuse to even go to church? The faithful need to have an understanding of the Mass that is in accord with Church teaching. When this is lacking there is not going to be harmony in the parish. My pastor is not to provide the EF if he can not ensure the welfare of the faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of his parish.

Our former bishop did not allow the EF Mass at all. He flat out said it would facilitate division. (He was right in his prediction but he probably should have allowed it.) That caused a huge amount of bitterness. Some clamored for it and said that if it was ever offered it would really “take-off” in the diocese. The old bishop retired and when Summorum Pontificum was promulgated the new bishop did a beautiful job of ensuring the EF Mass was offered at excellent, accommodating parishes throughout the diocese. If you wanted to attend the EF he made sure it was geographically available.

What’s the first thing people did? They started talking about a “tridentine-only” parishes. How come? The EF was already being celebrated in some very nice, “traditional” parishes. They built-up walls around themselves. They isolated themselves as much as they could from the rest of the diocese. They didn’t have the talent and treasure to assemble choirs and hire an organist so the Masses remain Low Masses I don’t know a single EF Mass that is now doing well in my diocese. It’s largely because of the divisive people who attend them.

The bishop made a mistake by not ensuring the EF Mass wast treated just like a Mass in Spanish or any other language. He should have ensured the Mass was being celebrated by the actual pastors of the parish where it was located so that the Mass truly became part of each parish community and not in essence tenants. Then again those who attend the EF were the ones that so desperately wanted to be separate.

 

[rciadan]

If people who lose the EF refuse to even go to the ordinary form of the Mass then the welfare of the faithful is “not in harmony with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish.”

This is merely your opinion. Maybe YOU are not in harmony because you absolutely refuse to attend a EF Mass?

I really wish and pray that the people recognize the value of both forms of the Mass. When we talk about the superiority (intrinsic/ extrinsic) of one form or the other, or talk of refusing to even go to Mass if it is not going to be EF, then how is this showing any kind of harmony with the parish?

Maybe they refuse because they know there are people like you there…people who are antagonistic towards them and who want to browbeat them into attending the OF.

How often do you attend the EF?

 

[rciadan]

That is a HUGE point. rciadan says that some who used to attend the EF Mass with him won’t attend the OF Mass as if it’s a given, as if that’s OK. It’s not.

No, it is not good, but it is what it is and neither you nor I are going change these people. At least I am attempting to show them a place they may feel welcome. You, on the other hand are treating them like dirt…

It needs to be addressed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You’re also wrong about the “book in Rome.” It does not say “novus ordo.” The Pope gave us the labels OF and EF. He does not use “NO” or “novus ordo.” If you don’t have the class the follow the Pope’s lead then that’s on you.

Actually he said. . .

NO was a term I became used to before the term OF came into common usage. Novus Ordo is the name printed by Rome on the cover of the instuctions for the priest on how to say the Mass. It is not negative, it merely is…

But here he is wrong as Rome does not print any of the books in use. Private publishers publish them for the Episcopal Conferences who produce the translations that Rome approves.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is a HUGE point. rciadan says that some who used to attend the EF Mass with him won’t attend the OF Mass as if it’s a given, as if that’s OK. It’s not. It needs to be addressed. The last thing a tiny Eastern Catholic parish needs is an influx of bitter Latin Rite Catholics with this mindset. The resulting gossip can absolutely poison a parish.

I have been in a Eastern parish that had an influx of such Catholics. It was not pretty but we stood (and I mean that literally (will explain below)) our ground and they eventually left.

While the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom can be said to be traditional I would have to agree that it closely resembles the OF as much as the EF. For the most part it is in the vernacular but it also only contains two readings. (Now the explanation) Where there is kneeling in both the EF and OF there is no kneeling in the Divine Liturgy. I am aware that there are still some hold out parishes that still kneel but that is a latinization that is going away as it should.

At the parish I attended where we had these types the insisted on kneeling during the consecration, something we do not do in the DL. A few of them also tried to kneel when they received the Eucharist. The priest refused them until they stood.

 

[Cat]

Because many of them I do not know other than having talked them at the Mass from time to time. I do not know the names, numbers, or emails of the vast majority of them; though, I do know their sentiments…

Not so. I have not been here nearly that long, and many of those in attendance live nowhere near me even though they travel great distance to come to the EF at St Martin DePorres. Only a very few are actual friends, and those I have discussed this with. In fact it was one of those who invited me to Sts Cyril and Methodius in the first place…

Well, hopefully many of them are active members of CAF. It just seems to me, sir, that this is not the best way to communicate information to people in your own community. Wouldn’t it be better to try to get hold of the parish’s membership roster, and then spend some time calling as many families as possible to let them know the various alternatives?

I’m guessing that a lot of these families would love to hear from you, as they are probably upset and sad about the situation and feeling lost and uncertain. They would probably dearly love to know what their options are for continuing involvement with traditional Masses. Perhaps you could have a meeting in your home, or at a public place near the church, and everyone could have a chance to hear about the other liturgies. Perhaps some of these people would be able to tell you about some options that you don’t know about (e.g., maybe someone knows where the very reverent OF Masses are).

Even if you call just a few families, perhaps they would be willing to help you with the list of names. You could divide up the list, and everyone could call a portion of the list, instead of you doing it all.

At any rate, I just think that a personal contact with your fellow parishioners would be more effective and accomplish your goal of spreading the information about the different options for these displaced Catholics.

You make unfounded assumptions. One thing I have noticed about many who attend the EF that I have found interesting is the seemingly lack of socialization. Once Mass is over they leave. The majority speak to no one, before or after Mass. I have found those that attend the EF exclusively to be a sort of “odd lot” in various ways. Others may feel different and want to debate me, but I am merely stating anectdotal findings.

That’s really interesting. We have just the opposite situation in our city. The small group of a few hundred (around 400?) who attend the EF Mass in our city is very close and friendly. Many of the ones with children have done homeschooling together for years, and now that they have managed to start an independent traditional Catholic school, they are even closer. They all work pretty hard to keep their small parish going, but they seem to love being together. They do an awesome St. Joseph’s altar! And they seem to enjoy getting together for a very deep Bible study taught by their priest. They’re very proud of the lovely grotto–I don’t blame them. Their building is magnificent–very old and historic.

It’s funny that I know more of them by name and feel comfortable with them then I know in my own OF parish! I do a lot of music for their school, and I also know a lot of their members from other activities in the community.

No, it is not a “problem”. Thank you for being so judgmental about a situation you know nothing about…

I apologize for coming across as judgmental. I will not back down from this, though. I think that attending Mass and receiving Eucharist is the center of life for a Catholic. But I also think that it’s important to be part of a local body of Christ. However, from what you say in the following paragraph, it sounds like many of the parishioners are involved in “body life,” so to speak, in their own neighborhoods, and that’s excellent.

These people are not part of the parish, in the sense that someone who travels 2 to 3 hours to attend the Mass on Sunday probably does not have that kind of time on most days of the week to get involved with the day to day ministries. The ones in the choir, I know. Most of them are also in the OF choir and are more balanced in their views. Most of those who attend the EF use the Baltimore Catechism, which is not allowed in most parishes. They would never let their children attend CCD. I, for one, did not have my children attend CCD either. By the time they were old enough to attend, we had taught them so much they knew more than half the teachers and, even at the 6th and 7th grade levels were bored to tears because it was all so “dumbed down” to the lowest common denominator. At 8 years old, these kids still had to be taught who Jesus is! Many, if the the vast majority of the ones I have had discussions with are extremely active int the pro life communities, but at their local level in the areas they live in, which, again, is often multiple hours away from where they attend Mass. They do the same with various ministries, etc. at the local level where they live.

Glad to hear it.

I thought I was doing something charitable! Most of those I have talked to are on CA and maybe reading this thread. But look how I have been treated for doing so. I hope when the time comes, you receive more charitable responses than I…

People are challenging you because you are coming across as someone who thinks that the OF is inferior to the EF, and that is not orthodox Catholic teaching. If that’s not your intention, then perhaps you can state it plainly.

 

[rciadan]

Well, hopefully many of them are active members of CAF. It just seems to me, sir, that this is not the best way to communicate information to people in your own community. Wouldn’t it be better to try to get hold of the parish’s membership roster, and then spend some time calling as many families as possible to let them know the various alternatives?

I have no way to do this and there is no “roster” of the attendies at the EF, which nullifies the next few paragraphs of your post…

That’s really interesting. We have just the opposite situation in our city. The small group of a few hundred (around 400?) who attend the EF Mass in our city is very close and friendly. Many of the ones with children have done homeschooling together for years, and now that they have managed to start an independent traditional Catholic school, they are even closer. They all work pretty hard to keep their small parish going, but they seem to love being together. They do an awesome St. Joseph’s altar! And they seem to enjoy getting together for a very deep Bible study taught by their priest. They’re very proud of the lovely grotto–I don’t blame them. Their building is magnificent–very old and historic.

I have stated many times in this thread that I have defended the OF many times, regardless of the term you want to use for it, and that I have never regarded any of the terms I have used as derogetory, yet they continue to attack and hijack a thread that was merely intended to inform those whom I have no other way of reaching. There is a mean, nasty, and evil spirit in this forum. I repeat, I have no ill will toward any form of Mass, very unlike those who are attacking me in this thread.
To all I say, “Get thee behind me Satan!”

 

[rciadan]

Actually he said. . .

But here he is wrong as Rome does not print any of the books in use. Private publishers publish them for the Episcopal Conferences who produce the translations that Rome approves.

Let’s get technical. The book said, “Novus Ordo” on the cover and the priest told me it was the book he used to know how to say Mass on any given day. It was obvious not physically printed by the Pope himself. Must I actually make it clear? Yes, class, the book* was not hand written by the Pope* himself. He actually had a printer print the book. And guess what else? He did not hand deliver it to the United States either! My God, cannot nobody get the point around here? I think you all just like to argue so you can say you are right, and will do so even if you end up on Satan’s side, as long as you can be right…Use the brains that God gave you, or was He holding out on you guys…?

 

[rciadan]

You know what? I did what I came to do. I gave information. That was my only intent. The people on this thread are not worth any more time than I have already wasted defending myself against your uncharitable and unwarranted attacks. Good bye, and God knows, good riddance.

 

[ProVobis]

That is a HUGE point. rciadan says that some who used to attend the EF Mass with him won’t attend the OF Mass as if it’s a given, as if that’s OK.

Yes, but if all those who wish the EF attend the OF, even reluctantly, then the pastor or bishop may conclude that there is absolutely no interest in the EF and so won’t even think about having one. So regardless of their action, they won’t get the EF. Know however I’m not an advocate for skipping the Sunday obligation.

 

[Cathryn]

This is merely your opinion. Maybe YOU are not in harmony because you absolutely refuse to attend a EF Mass?

  Maybe they refuse because they know there are people like you there...people who are antagonistic towards them and who want to browbeat them into attending the OF.

How often do you attend the EF?

I attended every EF of the Mass that we ever had, which was weekly for several years… I love both forms of the Mass and I am sacristan for both forms. We are getting a new pastor,who has asked me to continue to be his sacristan, because he wants someone with my experience and love of the Mass. At least that is what he has told me. He will be offering both forms. In the past, I have purchased most of the candlesticks, altar cross, altar cloths, antependiums, etc for the EF that we had. Most I purchased on Ebay, because our parish had nothing suitable. Probably if you look at my post from the past you will see my support for the EF, including my support for wearing the veil. I am far from antagonistic towards anyone and I do not browbeat anyone. I just love both forms of the Mass, as every Catholic should. I have attended every EF of the Mass that we have had. I also have a very good understanding of the traditional calendar and understanding of the TLM ordo that is an asset to the priest in setting up for the EF. I also love the OF and attend and am sacristan for those Masses as well.

 

[rciadan]

I attended every EF of the Mass that we ever had, which was weekly for several years… I love both forms of the Mass and I am sacristan for both forms. We are getting a new pastor,who has asked me to continue to be his sacristan, because he wants someone with my experience and love of the Mass. At least that is what he has told me. He will be offering both forms. In the past, I have purchased most of the candlesticks, altar cross, altar cloths, antependiums, etc for the EF that we had. Most I purchased on Ebay, because our parish had nothing suitable. Probably if you look at my post from the past you will see my support for the EF, including my support for wearing the veil. I am far from antagonistic towards anyone and I do not browbeat anyone. I just love both forms of the Mass, as every Catholic should. I have attended every EF of the Mass that we have had. I also have a very good understanding of the traditional calendar and understanding of the TLM ordo that is an asset to the priest in setting up for the EF. I also love the OF and attend and am sacristan for those Masses as well.

Yet, you refuse to believe me when I tell you that I too have a great respect for both. I am merely stating the fact that there are those who will not attend a OF Mass, and you attack me as if I agree with them, which I have repeatedly said I do not…
I cannot go back and read every post people have written in other threads. I can only go by your words in this one, and they are full of antagonism towards me.
And, I can respect* both*, and still be in awe of the DL!

 

[Cathryn]

Yet, you refuse to believe me when I tell you that I too have a great respect for both. I am merely stating the fact that there are those who will not attend a OF Mass, and you attack me as if I agree with them, which I have repeatedly said I do not…
I cannot go back and read every post people have written in other threads. I can only go by your words in this one, and they are full of antagonism towards me.
And, I can respect* both*, and still be in awe of the DL!

I have no antagonism towards you. I don’t know where you get that. I feel that those you are trying to help by sending them to a different rite, have a lack of understanding regarding the OF of the Mass, if they refuse to ever attend the OF. I have never said, or even thought this was your personal belief. If they would rather not go to Mass than go to an OF, then something is very amiss and this is not what the Holy Father is talking about creating by allowing the EF. My present pastor sees a serious problem with people only wanting the EF and rejecting the OF, and decided not to offer the EF. The people who would rather not go to Mass at all then go to an OF of the Mass, are willing to put their souls in danger. He was not able to ensure that the welfare of the faithful would harmonise with the ordinary pastoral care of his parish as the Holy Father calls for. His concern is for the parishioners, and their correct understanding of the Mass and avoiding discord, when he leaves. You told me my pastor wasn’t obeying what the Holy Father said to do. He is obeying by considering the whole statement by the Holy Father regarding the welfare of the faithful and how it is to harmonize with the ordinary pastoral care of his parish. He is the pastor, he sees the problem here.

In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

How you see what I say as personal attacks on you is beyond me. Because I bring up that my present pastor sees the divisiveness of people as a problem for his parishioners souls, isn’t a personal attack on you. Look at the Catholic Answers Forum, the division is there frequently. I am pointing out that Catholics should not believe that the OF is so horrible they would never attend one, to the point of missing Mass completely. These people need catechisis, not a new rite. This isn’t a personal attack on you. I am disagreeing with your solution to the problem of your parish only offering the OF. We should be able to agree and disagree on a discussion forum.

 

[Laetus]

I have been in a Eastern parish that had an influx of such Catholics. It was not pretty but we stood (and I mean that literally (will explain below)) our ground and they eventually left.

While the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom can be said to be traditional I would have to agree that it closely resembles the OF as much as the EF. For the most part it is in the vernacular but it also only contains two readings. (Now the explanation) Where there is kneeling in both the EF and OF there is no kneeling in the Divine Liturgy. I am aware that there are still some hold out parishes that still kneel but that is a latinization that is going away as it should.

At the parish I attended where we had these types the insisted on kneeling during the consecration, something we do not do in the DL. A few of them also tried to kneel when they received the Eucharist. The priest refused them until they stood.

I am glad your parish is doing well in this regard. The disgruntled Latin Rite Catholics that show up at my Eastern Parish take a real toll from time to time.

Even though the pastor patiently explains to them that we don’t kneel on Sundays and that we do not genuflect before receiving communion, it’s in one ear and out the other with them. It seems as if they feel they know better. Just another case of cafeteria catholicism. You should see them during the creed. they almost bend themselves in half over the pews. It’s something to see.

One person had the nerve to buy the pastor a subscription to the horrid “Wanderer.” That takes real chutzpah.

 

[rciadan]

I have no antagonism towards you. I don’t know where you get that. I feel that those you are trying to help by sending them to a different rite, have a lack of understanding regarding the OF of the Mass, if they refuse to ever attend the OF. I have never said, or even thought this was your personal belief. If they would rather not go to Mass than go to an OF, then something is very amiss and this is not what the Holy Father is talking about creating by allowing the EF.

You keep repeating yourself. I have told you I agree that it is a problem. By the way, this is something you think, not “feel”. My point, which you seem incapable of comprehending, is that there are many who do think this way, regardless of what you “feel” or what your pastor thinks. The whole point of my post was to present an alternative to not going at all, which is what some may be considering. The hard truth, which you seem unable to accept, is that there is a rather large contingent who just plain will not attend a OF.

These people need catechisis, not a new rite.

 

[rciadan]

The disgruntled Latin Rite Catholics that show up at my Eastern Parish take a real toll from time to time.

My goal in the OP was an invitation to simply come and experience the DL. I do not expect “disgruntled” people to stay long. Those types will come and see and say, “It is not like the EF!” and leave, the same way they will say that the OF is not the same.
But* there may be some who actually find the DL to be magnificent and glorious, full of Mystery and causing the spirit to soar!* They may find themselves wanting to learn more. They may even find themselves more in tune with the Eastern way of thinking: the conceptual theology, etc. They may find that they are* not running away, but rather, returning home!*
There may be some that choose to stay, for all the right reasons.

There have been a few who have spoken of “leaving ones heritage”. Consider this;
Many in past generations actually left their Eastern Rite heritage years ago, whether it was because finding a Eastern Rite church was too difficult, or because a spouse insisted on going to the Latin Rite, or because they wandered away from the faith and when they did become active again it happened to be at a Latin Rite church. (These are all actual reasons and there are many more) They have had children and even grandchildren. Maybe, just maybe, some of these people are* not *leaving their traditions and cultures, but returning to them! I think it is something to consider.

Again, those who are there for the wrong reasons will not stay long. But, how many start coming for the wrong reason and end up staying for the right reasons!? But, you don’t know which those are unless you invite someone! I have merely put forth an invitation. I have invited some people to something* I *have found awesome and glorious and beautiful, and desire to share. I have no control over if they come or stay. Don’t want that kind of control. That is the kind of control other posters on this thread seem to want.
Again, I will repeat my invitation:

I have the utmost respect for all forms of the Liturgy where Christ is present in the Eucharist, under whatever name anyone chooses to refer to it by. Yet, I have discovered a Liturgy I had never really experienced before and have found it to be beautiful, quickening to the spirit, mysterious, exciting, fulfilling… This find is the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church. I invite anyone who feels that they are searching for a liturgical “home” to come and experience the DL. Maybe you will find the same pearl I have. Maybe not. You will never know unless you at least come, taste and see…

 

[TrueLight]

That is a HUGE point. rciadan says that some who used to attend the EF Mass with him won’t attend the OF Mass as if it’s a given, as if that’s OK. It’s not. It needs to be addressed. The last thing a tiny Eastern Catholic parish needs is an influx of bitter Latin Rite Catholics with this mindset. The resulting gossip can absolutely poison a parish.

1. Should traditionalists be banned form Eastern Rite Parishes?
2. You really should address the bitterness that you have towards traditionalists. We are your brothers and sisters in Christ.
3. To all those who say some of us are defensive, read this post again and again.

It is certainly disheartening.

FYI, I know a number of traditionalists who attend DLs every now and then and they attend with respect to their customs.