A Saint is a Saint

[teachccd]

What is the difference between a beatified and canonized person? Now I know what the causes are and how the canonization process works but my question is, why do we refer to a beatified person as “blessed” when we know that they are in heaven? And many who are beatified remain that way indefinitely. I know that a canonized saint can find themselves on a Church calendar but if a person is beatified why can’t they be referred to as a saint since they are in heaven? Thank you and God bless…teachccd

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me that when a person is canonized as a Saint, that means that they have some sort of an ‘intercessory’ role in the Church… they are intercessors for us, that’s why we ask them to pray
maybe the ones who remain ‘blessed’ indefinitely are in Heaven but God has other plans for them? I really don’t know

God bless.

 

[teachccd]

I don’t know for sure, but it seems to me that when a person is canonized as a Saint, that means that they have some sort of an ‘intercessory’ role in the Church… they are intercessors for us, that’s why we ask them to pray
maybe the ones who remain ‘blessed’ indefinitely are in Heaven but God has other plans for them? I really don’t know

God bless.

Thank you for your answer. That has been a quandry for me and someone did give me a good answer a while back but my memory is useless. Anyway, God bless you and thanks again.

 

[LilyM]

Actually we do NOT know certainly that a beatified person is in heaven. It is only when they are canonised that our hope and faith becomes a God-given certainty.

Praying to a beatified person is along the lines of believing in the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima - we are permitted to believe, but such belief is not required nor guaranteed truth.

 

[teachccd]

Actually we do NOT know certainly that a beatified person is in heaven. It is only when they are canonised that our hope and faith becomes a God-given certainty.

Praying to a beatified person is along the lines of believing in the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima - we are permitted to believe, but such belief is not required nor guaranteed truth.

I’m not so sure. Part of the beatification is one miracle attributed to that person. I doubt that a person in hell would be able to interceed. I think that there is still more than that. Thank you and God bless.

 

[LilyM]

I’m not so sure. Part of the beatification is one miracle attributed to that person. I doubt that a person in hell would be able to interceed. I think that there is still more than that. Thank you and God bless.

Be sure. From the Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm
“This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification”

The best definition I’ve heard of beatification is that it is ‘a declaration that a person is MOST LIKELY in heaven’.

True, a person in hell would not be able to intercede, but there would be instances in which God permits a miracle because of the one praying for it, regardless of the sanctity or otherwise of the deceased soul through whom they pray.

Or an occasional instance of simple mistake in declaring something a miracle - after all the people investigating miracles are human, subject to human error. See it’s not that the Pope declares the miracles to be miracles - at least not directly. He just declares that the person is a Saint and that public cultus (veneration) is permissible.

Which is part of the reason why TWO miracles are required for canonisation - such considerations wouldn’t occur twice in regard to the same individual.

 

[Genesis315]

Beatification is an indult (a concession or permission) for local Churches to treat the person as a Saint while canonization is prescriptive and definitive for the whole Church to treat the person as a Saint:

From the Congregation for the Causes of Saints

Canonization is the supreme glorification by the Church of a Servant of God raised to the honours of the altar with a decree declared definitive and preceptive for the whole Church, involving the solemn Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff.
This is expressed unequivocally in the formula: “*Ad honorem Sanctae et Individuae Trnitatis… auctoritate Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, beatorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli ac Nostra… Beatum N. N. Sanctum esse decernimus ac definimus, ac Sanctorum Catalogo adscribimus, statuentes eum in universa Ecclesia inter Sanctos pia devotione recoli debere”. *

Beatification, on the other hand, consists in the concession of a public cult in the form of an indult and limited to a Servant of God whose virtues to a heroic degree, or Martyrdom, have been duly recognized, as is pointed out by the respective formula: *"…facultatem facimus ut Venerabilis Servus Dei N. N. Beati nomine in posterum appelletur, eiusque festum… in locis ac modis iure statutis quotannis celebrari possit". *

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20050929_saraiva-martins-beatif_en.html

The whole thing is a very good read–it is in the context of a new procedure for beatification, but it explains well the nature of beatification in relation to canonization (especial concerning its local nature) and how it has been developed throughout history.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Beatification is an indult (a concession or permission) for local Churches to treat the person as a Saint while canonization is prescriptive and definitive for the whole Church to treat the person as a Saint:

From the Congregation for the Causes of Saints

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20050929_saraiva-martins-beatif_en.html

The whole thing is a very good read–it is in the context of a new procedure for beatification, but it explains well the nature of beatification in relation to canonization (especial concerning its local nature) and how it has been developed throughout history.

Thank you very much for beating me to the punch with the critical distinction and having a good source to back up the point.

 

[teachccd]

Thank you to all for all of the information. So, just for clarity, would it be correct to say that a beatified individual is in heaven and can be recognized as such but just not fully or officially recognized by the Holy See? In other words, is it just a process which still acknowledges that the person is in heaven and can be prayed to for their intercession?

Can I pray to Mother Teresa? She is beatified so does the Church recognize her as being in heaven? teachccd

 

[LilyM]

Thank you to all for all of the information. So, just for clarity, would it be correct to say that a beatified individual is in heaven and can be recognized as such but just not fully or officially recognized by the Holy See? In other words, is it just a process which still acknowledges that the person is in heaven and can be prayed to for their intercession?

Can I pray to Mother Teresa? She is beatified so does the Church recognize her as being in heaven? teachccd

Not so - as stated, beatification is permission to treat a person AS IF they were in heaven.

Like a marriage that is being investigated for validity is assumed to be, and treated throughout the process of investigation AS IF IT WAS, a valid marriage. Even if in the end the decree comes that it ISN’T in reality a valid marriage. You see the difference between treating something in a certain way and it actually BEING in reality that certain way?

In that you can treat Mother Teresa or any other Blessed as you beign in heaven, of course you can pray to her. But you don’t need permission to do that!

You can pray to any soul you wish whom you believe to be in purgatory or heaven. God won’t hold it against you if you’re wrong or anything How do you think the miracles that enable beatification happen in the first place? Because people can and do pray to ANY soul they think is in Purgatory or Heaven!

 

[Genesis315]

As Lily pointed out, privately you can pray to anyone.

Beatification allows for it to be done “publicly”–ie for the person to venerated and have their intercession sought in the public liturgy.

For example, the Church in the USA celebrates liturgically the memorial of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, but her memorial would not be celebrated in, say, Poland.

Basically, until they’re canonized you don’t have to believe they are in Heaven–but Churches can publicly do so. The whole universal Church must believe a canonized person is in Heaven.

 

[Snerticus]

Okay, then can someone please explain a Venerable?

Thanks!

 

[Zahmir]

Beatification is an indult (a concession or permission) for local Churches to treat the person as a Saint while canonization is prescriptive and definitive for the whole Church to treat the person as a Saint:

From the Congregation for the Causes of Saints

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20050929_saraiva-martins-beatif_en.html

The whole thing is a very good read–it is in the context of a new procedure for beatification, but it explains well the nature of beatification in relation to canonization (especial concerning its local nature) and how it has been developed throughout history.

This is right. Beatified means, basically, “saint for a local Church.” Canonized means “saint for the whole Church.”

 

[Cristiano]

This is right. Beatified means, basically, “saint for a local Church.” Canonized means “saint for the whole Church.”

That does not sound correct to me. Beatified means that you can treat him/her as a saint for the local Church. Canonized mean that he/she is a saint for the whole Church.

 

[Genesis315]

Okay, then can someone please explain a Venerable?

Thanks!

Under the current process, the title “venerable” is given to a person who is declared to have lived a life of heroic virtue. While it doesn’t authorize public/liturgical veneration, it basically serves as a notice that such a person might be good to venerate privately and from whom to privately seek intercession.

 

[teachccd]

As Lily pointed out, privately you can pray to anyone.

Beatification allows for it to be done “publicly”–ie for the person to venerated and have their intercession sought in the public liturgy.

For example, the Church in the USA celebrates liturgically the memorial of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, but her memorial would not be celebrated in, say, Poland.

Basically, until they’re canonized you don’t have to believe they are in Heaven–but Churches can publicly do so. The whole universal Church must believe a canonized person is in Heaven.

I guess that perhaps I’ll let this go since I do not have the capacity to understand much of this. But you say a beatified person can have their intercession sought in the public liturgy and then you say that we do not have to believe that they are in heaven. Why would the Church in the USA liturgically celebrate the memorial of Blessed Kateri Tekawitha if there are residual doubts regarding her being in heaven?

This has always me but perhaps one day it will click…God Bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Not so - as stated, beatification is permission to treat a person AS IF they were in heaven.

Like a marriage that is being investigated for validity is assumed to be, and treated throughout the process of investigation AS IF IT WAS, a valid marriage. Even if in the end the decree comes that it ISN’T in reality a valid marriage. You see the difference between treating something in a certain way and it actually BEING in reality that certain way?

In that you can treat Mother Teresa or any other Blessed as you beign in heaven, of course you can pray to her. But you don’t need permission to do that!

You can pray to any soul you wish whom you believe to be in purgatory or heaven. God won’t hold it against you if you’re wrong or anything How do you think the miracles that enable beatification happen in the first place? Because people can and do pray to ANY soul they think is in Purgatory or Heaven!

And that is precisely my question. How does a person intercede and have a miracle attributed to them if they are in hell? Isn’t it fairly clear that God answers the prayers of those that are eternally alive in Him and not one who condemned themselves to hell? So if this person is in heaven then isn’t canonization a formal declaration and not to be taken as a confirmation as though there was previous doubt? I am so .

God bless and thank you for your patience…teachccd

 

[LilyM]

And that is precisely my question. How does a person intercede and have a miracle attributed to them if they are in hell? Isn’t it fairly clear that God answers the prayers of those that are eternally alive in Him and not one who condemned themselves to hell? So if this person is in heaven then isn’t canonization a formal declaration and not to be taken as a confirmation as though there was previous doubt? I am so .

God bless and thank you for your patience…teachccd

If I pray to God to cure me of cancer, He can decide, out of love for me and in His infinite goodness, to cure me.

If I pray for that cure through a soul who unfortunately is in Hell, God can STILL decide, out of love for me and in His infinite goodness, to grant MY prayer (although NOT that of the soul in hell) and cure me ANYWAY!

Why not, if it is His will that I be cured, since the miracle will not in any event be misconstrued - not taken as certain confirmation that the soul is in heaven?

Prayer is a good thing in all circumstances, like a diamond is valuable even if it’s sitting in a mudpuddle. Praying through a soul who is in hell might mean it’s like a diamond that has a bit of mud clinging to it - still loses none of its value regardless.

And there’s really no question of ‘doubt’ or ‘confirmation’ with a beato who proceeds to canonisation. If a judge gives permission for a 15-year-old to be tried as an adult (ie in the same court that normally deals with over 18 year olds) there’s no question of doubt as to that criminal’s actual age, or confirmation of their actual age.

There’s no implication of any kind that that criminal ACTUALLY is over 18 - he or she won’t be until he or she reaches their 18th birthday. The court declaration is wholely and solely as to how they are to be TREATED, and doesn’t reflect at all on what they actually ARE.

 

[teachccd]

If I pray to God to cure me of cancer, He can decide, out of love for me and in His infinite goodness, to cure me.

If I pray for that cure through a soul who unfortunately is in Hell, God can STILL decide, out of love for me and in His infinite goodness, to grant MY prayer (although NOT that of the soul in hell) and cure me ANYWAY!

Why not, if it is His will that I be cured, since the miracle will not in any event be misconstrued - not taken as certain confirmation that the soul is in heaven?

Prayer is a good thing in all circumstances, like a diamond is valuable even if it’s sitting in a mudpuddle. Praying through a soul who is in hell might mean it’s like a diamond that has a bit of mud clinging to it - still loses none of its value regardless.

And there’s really no question of ‘doubt’ or ‘confirmation’ with a beato who proceeds to canonisation. If a judge gives permission for a 15-year-old to be tried as an adult (ie in the same court that normally deals with over 18 year olds) there’s no question of doubt as to that criminal’s actual age, or confirmation of their actual age.

There’s no implication of any kind that that criminal ACTUALLY is over 18 - he or she won’t be until he or she reaches their 18th birthday. The court declaration is wholely and solely as to how they are to be TREATED, and doesn’t reflect at all on what they actually ARE.

O.K then what exactly is the deciding factor for canonization? I remember that it is another miracle (which you state may not be from that person’s intercession but by the mercy of God and His eternal will) is necessary. What allows the Church to be certain that this person is indeed in heaven and can now be referred to as a saint that differs from the beatification process?

Your introduction to your post indicates that intercessory prayer really bears no part in whether or not God will perform a miracle since in His infinite love and goodness He will not need any intercessory prayer.

I think that there is a kink somewhere in either my understanding of your expression or in your understanding of saints, miracles and intercessory prayer. But, I do thank you for your fervent effort and I am truly sorry for being so . God Bless you!

 

[redrosetea]

I think there aer 4 steps to canonization

I Servant of God
2 Venerable
3 Blessed
4 sainthood