A Satan question for you smart folks

[Kolbe300]

Hi everyone,

I have a question that has ALWAYS bothered me, it’s one I’ve just never been able to really figure out. I’m wondering if anyone has some insight. The question is basically this: Why did Satan become Satan? It may be unanswerable, but I’m wondering if anyone has some insight.

I believe there is a Satan, of that I have no doubt. The question that has bothered me is WHY does Satan exist. The idea of a “fallen angel” has never made sense to me (at all). It is obvious from the story of creation that Satan was around when Adam and Eve were created. Obviously, he was around before the fall of man. Were there angels before God created everything out of nothing? The thing that has puzzled me is why God would allow an angel to fall in the first place, if that’s what happened. Why would God not destroy the angel/spirit/whatever that would become Satan? Why would a fallen angel be given such power? Why would an angel, in the presence of God, fall to begin with?

What God has done because of Satan makes sense to me. Jesus makes sense, the Cross makes sense. Satan’s grip makes sense. Why he exists and why he was allowed to have that grip in the first place, doesn’t.

Maybe someone has some insight that can help me, or a reading recommendation. Thanks much.

Peace,
Kolbe

 

[aborodki]

Because God wanted to be loved by all of His creation. Love isn’t real if it doesn’t come freely. So Angles were given free will just as humans were and Satan chose not to love.

 

[Eucharisted]

God created the angels immortal. Therefore, they cannot die.
God did not change the angels into something else, so they still have their angelic power.
Satan fell because he had committed a mortal sin: pride.

 

[Tosk]

That has always puzzled me too. Satan was one of God’s most beautiful and rational creatures. So how does he decide to follow such an irrational and destructive path? With people we are weak minded and have our passions that ruin us but you would assume a incredibly intelligent and rational being would always choose good. I am assuming that doing good as opposed to evil is always the rational choice so why wouldn’t a perfectly rational being always do good?

 

[Joe_5859]

That has always puzzled me too. Satan was one of God’s most beautiful and rational creatures. So how does he decide to follow such an irrational and destructive path? With people we are weak minded and have our passions that ruin us but you would assume a incredibly intelligent and rational being would always choose good. I am assuming that doing good as opposed to evil is always the rational choice so why wouldn’t a perfectly rational being always do good?

It just goes to show you that intelligence does not save us. Even the most intelligent people in the world still choose against God. It’s pride that leads us to think it is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.

In response to the OP, I would think that God did not squash out Satan for the same reason he did not squash out humanity after Adam and Eve’s sin. God loves us and wants us to love Him freely, which necessitates the risk that we will turn away from Him.

The angels are powerful, but so are we. We have powers the angels will never have. We have the power to create another human life. Once ordained, some of us have the power to turn ordinary bread and wine into the Body and Blood of God Himself.

If you think about it, Adam and Eve’s sin is equally mind-boggling. Adam and Eve were not born with Original Sin as we are. They did not have concupiscence as we do. They walked with God in paradise and wanted for nothing. They had the preternatural gifts. And yet, with all these advantages, they still chose against God. It would be like Mother Teresa at the height of her sanctity one day deciding to suffocate a baby…times a thousand. That’s what the sin of Adam and Eve was like.

If you’re looking for it to make sense, you’ll be looking for a long time. Simply put, it doesn’t make any rational sense why anyone (human or angel) would choose against God. And yet we do it every day.

 

[Ana]

If you think about it, Adam and Eve’s sin is equally mind-boggling. Adam and Eve were not born with Original Sin as we are. They did not have concupiscence as we do. They walked with God in paradise and wanted for nothing. They had the preternatural gifts. And yet, with all these advantages, they still chose against God. It would be like Mother Teresa at the height of her sanctity one day deciding to suffocate a baby…times a thousand. That’s what the sin of Adam and Eve was like.

I feel similar to you, in wondering how anyone who walked so closely with God, and endowed with supernatural gifts could knowingly choose against him? Honestly I’ve pondered it quite a bit cause it kind of nagged at me.

For right or wrong, here are my thoughts on the matter. I’m thinking that maybe they didn’t know the dreadfulness of the act. Not that they weren’t accountable, because God told them “You will die.” But that they BELIEVED the serpent who said, “You will NOT die.” So if that’s WHO they believed then they believed THE LIE, and for that moment served the Father of Lies. Consequently, they didn’t really think they were going to die, basically believing God lied, or that he would “let them off the hook.” Thereby placing God in a predicament (for lack of better words.). As God cannot just let them off because He can’t contradict Himself, this could accomplish nothing except to revealed His Justice. But since this could not also contradict His love and desire for us and **because of the lack of full knowledge, **this could accomplish nothing except to reveal his Mercy. ( Cause He knew it all from the git-go, and made a way for us.)

They disbelieved in God’s consequence of following His command. Perhaps they thought they could love him, even while disobeying Him. Or perhaps it ws the "it won’t happen to me? They did not have the benefit of learning from someone elses example as we do or the hindsight of Bible History as we do. They were just babes. I think Mother Theresa at the height of her sanctity had more knowledge of God then Adam and Eve. Not necessarily peternatural gifts, but simple knowledge. She had the Bible and the benefit of Church History. She knew of not only God’s love, but His Justice and Mercy. Adam and Eve up until that point, had only cause to know His love (could this have been the door of presumption through which entered the lie?)

I don’t know, but I think they were surprised at the result, and that this could be why the Church reminds us they were not in full knowledge, and therefore the consequence was not eternal, as with the Angels. Who knowingly and in full knowledge chose to serve Satan. It was this lack of knowledge which allowed room for God’s Mercy. If they KNEW better (more?) like the Angels, it is likely their actions would have resulted in the same consequence.

My coffee cup musings for whatever they are worth.

 

[jpk1313]

Satan fell becuse he wanted to be god and have his power. In trying to take over he rejected love. satans attitude is “if I can’t be god no one can be, not even god”. He tried to “take” love instead of recive it.

 

[Don9of11]

I think regarding the story of creation you must keep in mind that it is a story about creation. There are details that are not included and probably for good reason. If the whole story of creation where told in its entirety we might still be reading about it and not knowing anything about salvation…lol.

It’s like watch’n Gone With The Wind, and then having to write 5 or 6 short paragraphs of twenty words or less so that whoever reads it will know the whole story. In this analogy you can see a lot of details would be left out but would include the most pivotal and important part of the whole story; “Frankly, Scarlet I don’t give a damn!” or something like that.

As to Satan or the Devil you may want to read through this link oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Devil.

 

[Kolbe300]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I think I’m going to have to file this one in the “will never understand” folder. Adam and Eve’s sin makes some sense to me. While they weren’t burdened with original sin, they did have temptation (thanks to Satan).

Unfortunately, I just can’t wrap my mind around an angel, created in perfection and without temptation (unless angels are tempting eachother), deciding against love. You guys have brought up a question I’d never thought about, with regards to free will. As someone pointed out, the angels have free will just like us. That makes sense since God never forces anyone to love him. It makes me think about the saved souls in heaven though. If that free will never goes away, wouldn’t they be capable of turning away from God even after finding salvation? Sure, we’d probably all sit back and think to ourselves that they would never, ever, ever do that. But if an angel can do it, why couldn’t a saved soul? I had never in my life considered the possibility that heaven could contain pride, until now. I’ll admit to it being a slightly depressing thought.

Thanks for nothing everybody!! I’m totally kidding. My “will never understand folder” is getting bigger not smaller!! Thanks again for all your interesting (name removed by moderator)ut. Tons to chew on.

Peace,
Kolbe

 

[Kasey1]

God created the angels immortal. Therefore, they cannot die.
God did not change the angels into something else, so they still have their angelic power.
Satan fell because he had committed a mortal sin: pride.

yeap that’s the reason!

 

[cheeto1]

It makes me think about the saved souls in heaven though. If that free will never goes away, wouldn’t they be capable of turning away from God even after finding salvation?..if an angel can do it, why couldn’t a saved soul?

Maybe they can see hell

 

[matahari]

Hi everyone,

I have a question that has ALWAYS bothered me, it’s one I’ve just never been able to really figure out. I’m wondering if anyone has some insight. The question is basically this: Why did Satan become Satan? It may be unanswerable, but I’m wondering if anyone has some insight.

Peace,
Kolbe

---

I believe God tested the angels to see which were worthy
just as He tested Adam and Eve
Lucifer [Light bearer] and one third of the angelic hosts rebelled
against God and were cast out of Heaven by Michael [meaning
Who is like God ]

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I think I’m going to have to file this one in the “will never understand” folder. Adam and Eve’s sin makes some sense to me. While they weren’t burdened with original sin, they did have temptation (thanks to Satan).

Unfortunately, I just can’t wrap my mind around an angel, created in perfection and without temptation (unless angels are tempting eachother), deciding against love.

This idea seems to presume that the only reason anyone sins is because some outside force tempted them. I don’t think that’s true. Sometimes temptation is from within. That surely would have been the case with Satan.

I feel similar to you, in wondering how anyone who walked so closely with God, and endowed with supernatural gifts could knowingly choose against him? Honestly I’ve pondered it quite a bit cause it kind of nagged at me.

For right or wrong, here are my thoughts on the matter. I’m thinking that maybe they didn’t know the dreadfulness of the act. Not that they weren’t accountable, because God told them “You will die.” But that they BELIEVED the serpent who said, “You will NOT die.” So if that’s WHO they believed then they believed THE LIE, and for that moment served the Father of Lies. Consequently, they didn’t really think they were going to die, basically believing God lied, or that he would “let them off the hook.” Thereby placing God in a predicament (for lack of better words.). As God cannot just let them off because He can’t contradict Himself, this could accomplish nothing except to revealed His Justice. But since this could not also contradict His love and desire for us and **because of the lack of full knowledge, **this could accomplish nothing except to reveal his Mercy. ( Cause He knew it all from the git-go, and made a way for us.)

They disbelieved in God’s consequence of following His command. Perhaps they thought they could love him, even while disobeying Him. Or perhaps it ws the "it won’t happen to me? They did not have the benefit of learning from someone elses example as we do or the hindsight of Bible History as we do. They were just babes. I think Mother Theresa at the height of her sanctity had more knowledge of God then Adam and Eve. Not necessarily peternatural gifts, but simple knowledge. She had the Bible and the benefit of Church History. She knew of not only God’s love, but His Justice and Mercy. Adam and Eve up until that point, had only cause to know His love (could this have been the door of presumption through which entered the lie?)

I don’t know, but I think they were surprised at the result, and that this could be why the Church reminds us they were not in full knowledge, and therefore the consequence was not eternal, as with the Angels. Who knowingly and in full knowledge chose to serve Satan. It was this lack of knowledge which allowed room for God’s Mercy. If they KNEW better (more?) like the Angels, it is likely their actions would have resulted in the same consequence.

My coffee cup musings for whatever they are worth.

Thanks for sharing your musings. From the Catechism:

CCC 397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

I think much of your musings correspond with this passage.

 

[Joe_5859]

Actually, I guess we should turn to the Catechim in regards to the OP as well:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

CCC 391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. [266] Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. [267] The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” [268]

CCC 392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. [269] This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” [270] The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”. [271]

CCC 393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” [272]

CCC 394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. [273] “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” [274] In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

CCC 395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” [275]

[266] Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
[267] Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.
[268] Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
[269] Cf. 2 Pet 2:4.
[270] Gen 3:5.
[271] 1 Jn 3:8; Jn 8:44.
[272] St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.
[273] Jn 8:44; cf. Mt 4:1-11.
[274] 1 Jn 3:8.
[275] Rom 8:28.