A sign that one's faith is weak...

[Morning_Star15]

If a 1,400 year-old book is 100% consistent with modern scientific facts, then it is very, very probable indeed that it is truthful.

And we established on the other thread, more than once, that the Qu’ran is NOT 100% consistent with modern scientific facts. Do you think that restating this in another thread is going to make the arguments against it on the original thread go away?

 

[Morning_Star15]

What I am stating in the other thread are cold hard evidences that are testable and which greatly supports the truthfulness of the Qur’an.

How can anyone honestly say that to test a book to determine whether it has discrepancies is a non-objective test?

That does not make sense at all.

Please take a look at the orignal thread - the explanation was given there, which you have obviously decided to ignore.

 

[cestusdei]

hamba, as I said you are using eisegesis, which can make a book say whatever you want. We have pointed out places where the quran is wrong. You ignored those facts. That speaks volumes.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

You misunderstand the situation. Christianity’s not at war with Islam. Islam’s at war with Christianity.

Yea I agree remember I said

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
Well there you go, at war thats your choice. And Christianity is not at war with Islam. Jesus died for all including you, He doesnt see race, He sees His created children, separated from Him and wishes their return.

Christianity is not at war because Christ wants unity for all. But like you said Islam is at war, but its your choice, you or anyone can choose not to follow war.

You just have to accept Christs sacrifice for you and turn your heart to His ways. Or you do not and choose your own path. Thats the difference between Jesus and any other religion, He gives us the chance to decide for ourselves what to believe, Even if it is not Him.

 

[jack_hawkins]

If a 1,400 year-old book is 100% consistent with modern scientific facts, then it is very, very probable indeed that it is truthful.

no, that is a non sequitur
plain and simple
even if all the “science” in the Koran was correct (which it isn’t), it would not therefore follow that the spiritual aspects of the Koran were “true”
as I and others have explained, it would just mean that a supernatural entity had recited the Koran to “Muhammad” to fool and entrap people into Islam

 

[jack_hawkins]

What I am stating in the other thread are cold hard evidences that are testable and which greatly supports the truthfulness of the Qur’an.

How can anyone honestly say that to test a book to determine whether it has discrepancies is a non-objective test?

That does not make sense at all.

This is just not moving on. You keep on making the same logical and factual errors of the last thread. This is spamming.

 

[Chancellare]

Based on experience from past debates with Islamic bloggers:

1. Islamic faith does not rely on human constructs like logic and reason. To them, if Muhammed says Allah thinks square is round, then round it is. I think Pope Benedict tackled this in one of his discourses on the subject.
2. Islamic teaching does not abhor violence and lying so long as it serves the purpose of spreading their faith.
3. Double standard in many ways. Example: it’s ok to lie to an ‘infidel’ but not to a fellow Islamist.

There are many other fundamental doctrines that run perpendicular to Judeo-Christian teachings that make it doubly difficult to face the same north during a debate with them.
I ended up thinking that debate with Islamist is a conundrum: they want to have a reasonable debate but they don’t necessarily subscribe to reason.
RIght hamba2han ?

 

[Jayda]

… is when one starts to be more concerned about the contents of another scripture than what is written in the scripture of one’s own faith.

I really did not plan to open this thread but I seem to be getting questioned on unrelated matters to the subject of the thread that I am currently focusing on and so I think it is probably better for me to respond to these questions on this thread.

First off, why should those who say that they do not believe in what is written in the Qur’an be so concerned about what it says regarding the fate of non-believers in the Hereafter?

I know what the Bible says about my own fate but it does not bother me at all because I just do not believe that my destiny in the Hereafter will depend on what the Bible says.

I think that it should be no different for those who do not believe in the Qur’an.

hola hamba2han,

i think you have some interesting questions. it perplexes me when some people obsess over things they believe are wrong about other peoples religions… we do not need doctorates in misguidance to be able to recognize immorality or heresy when it appears.

i do not know exactly why some do this… i imagine that many begin with honest intentions, they see what they believe to be misguidance and they wish to help people move beyond it. others might be weak in their own faith and wish to investigate this. whatever the initial cause, the problem (i think) is when it rises to the level of obsession…

there is definitely an element of this obsession here… and there is room for improvement from Catholics to communicate in better and more charitable ways.

Second, is the truth and accuracy of your own scripture not an important matter for you?

Like I have mentioned, convincing oneself that the Qur’an is wrong does not prove that one’s own faith is the truth or vice versa and so I do not quite understand the motives of those who are attacking the scriptures of others without at the same time checking the truth of their own scripture as well.

i am a little confused why this question resurfaces so much on this forum and elsewhere. it feels like we have answered muslims’ questions concerning the truth of the bible and the Church many times, but when the question is answered a new topic is created asking the same question in a modified way.

this is disrespectful and when it happens we feel like we are not being listened to… without listening there is no hope for conversation only polemics, which are meaningless and irritating… perhaps there is an opportunity here for improvement from non Christians too…

Third, why is it so important for Christians to “save” the souls of Muslims??

You see, Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment, we will not be questioned by the Creator on whether the people who we spread the teachings of Islam to eventually embraced Islam or not, but rather we will be questioned on the time and effort that we put in towards this cause.

And so, I can tell you that I am not on these boards to save anyone’s soul but my own.

gracias for your explanation… i think maybe this is as simple as difference in Catholic and muslim theology.

the only person who saves souls from sin is God, i cannot save your soul, the Holy Father cannot save your soul… only God sacrificed Himself for us. we have a responsibility to teach what is in the gospels that we are obligated to live by… that is why we create so many topics to teach what the Church says and what we are supposed to do…

it is important for all of us Catholics to remember we must not teach in an unCatholic way. name calling and saying things just to be mean is incorrect and a poor representation of the Holy Church.

que Dios te bendiga non Catholics
Dominus Vobiscum Catholics

 

[Valke2]

If a 1,400 year-old book is 100% consistent with modern scientific facts, then it is very, very probable indeed that it is truthful.

I’ll assume that is so. But I’ve yet to see a 1,400 year old book that is 100% consistent with modern science.

In Sura 27:18, Solomon listens to a conversation of ants. Where does modern science weigh in on this.

The stars are in the lower of the 7 heavens according to the Quran (Surah 67). Where does modern science weigh in on this?

The Quran says regarding mountains, among other things, that they are placed like stakes in the ground to keep the earth from shaking. (78:6) Where does modern science weigh in on this?

The list of scientific inaccuracies is truly daunting. Which shouldn’t surprise anyone and shouldn’t, imo, detract from your holy book.

Mountains were thrown down like:
tent pegs
like an anchor to hold a ship in place
to limit earthquakes (16:15)
Where does modern science weigh in on this.

 

[Valke2]

The list of scientific inaccuracies is daunting. That doesn’t mean there isn’t truth in your holy book. But it is nonsense to pin the validity of your faith on the allegation that the quran is scientifically accurate.

I think this Dr. Bruceili is doing your faith more harm than good.

 

[hamba2han]

I have to say that I am rather disappointed that my ‘How to test the truth of a religion’ thread was closed as I had planned to add quite a few more testable evidences in support of the subject of the thread.

However, I cannot really say that I am surprised that it happened since a number of posters have been expressing their dissatisfaction of the thread in recent days and perhaps even longer.

Anyhow, if the contents of the thread did make some people feel uncomfortable or perhaps it even frightened them somewhat… then this is exactly what the Truth is supposed to do.

For those who may indeed be feeling this fear of the Truth, this is actually a good sign because whether you realize it or not, this might help bring you closer to the source of this Truth eventually, God-willing.

 

[Jedda]

I have to say that I am rather disappointed that my ‘How to test the truth of a religion’ thread was closed as I had planned to add quite a few more testable evidences in support of the subject of the thread.

However, I cannot really say that I am surprised that it happened since a number of posters have been expressing their dissatisfaction of the thread in recent days and perhaps even longer.

Anyhow, if the contents of the thread did make some people feel uncomfortable or perhaps it even frightened them somewhat… then this is exactly what the Truth is supposed to do.

For those who may indeed be feeling this fear of the Truth, this is actually a good sign because whether you realize it or not, this might help bring you closer to the source of this Truth eventually, God-willing.

But who’s “Truth” is it? Just because you see it as truth , does not mean it is; its just your perception of what “truth” is or what it is to you.

 

[hamba2han]

But who’s “Truth” is it? Just because you see it as truth , does not mean it is; its just your perception of what “truth” is or what it is to you.

The Truth comes only from the Creator.

 

[water]

The Truth comes only from the Creator.

Logically, you are not a creator, would this make you a liar- nothing truth coming from you?

 

[exoflare]

I have to say that I am rather disappointed that my ‘How to test the truth of a religion’ thread was closed as I had planned to add quite a few more testable evidences in support of the subject of the thread.

When you say “a few more” testable evidences, you’re getting ahead of yourself. First you should try to post at least one.

 

[Chancellare]

I’ll assume that is so. But I’ve yet to see a 1,400 year old book that is 100% consistent with modern science.

In Sura 27:18, Solomon listens to a conversation of ants. Where does modern science weigh in on this.

The stars are in the lower of the 7 heavens according to the Quran (Surah 67). Where does modern science weigh in on this?

The Quran says regarding mountains, among other things, that they are placed like stakes in the ground to keep the earth from shaking. (78:6) Where does modern science weigh in on this?

The list of scientific inaccuracies is truly daunting. Which shouldn’t surprise anyone and shouldn’t, imo, detract from your holy book.

Mountains were thrown down like:
tent pegs
like an anchor to hold a ship in place
to limit earthquakes (16:15)
Where does modern science weigh in on this.

Which leads us back to my previous statement regarding Reason and Islam. One cannot have reasonable debate with a belief that does not follow reason, much less reconcile with science.

 

[birdsong]

After reading your words, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry …… you have been spamming all over the forum with your copy-paste jobs but not one single time have you cared to confront the refutations to your “scientific evidence” that some people here have presented to you …. You think you sound very “scientific” and smart when you try to associate Popper’s “falsification” argument with the quoran’s “challenge” to produce a “surah like it”, right? …. I bet you have not even gotten past the index page of Popper’s books (maybe you don’t even know who Karl Popper was) …… Popper clearly was talking about an independent and objective methodology that would put the main tenets of the theory in question to test … obviously, the quoran’s challenge and all the “scientific” evidence and “miracles” that you have spamming the forum with can not be considered objective or independent …… it is clear you do not understand the meaning of “objective” and “independent”, so you are beyond any hope ……

I have to say that I am rather disappointed that my ‘How to test the truth of a religion’ thread was closed as I had planned to add quite a few more testable evidences in support of the subject of the thread.

However, I cannot really say that I am surprised that it happened since a number of posters have been expressing their dissatisfaction of the thread in recent days and perhaps even longer.

Anyhow, if the contents of the thread did make some people feel uncomfortable or perhaps it even frightened them somewhat… then this is exactly what the Truth is supposed to do.

For those who may indeed be feeling this fear of the Truth, this is actually a good sign because whether you realize it or not, this might help bring you closer to the source of this Truth eventually, God-willing.

 

[Valke2]

Which leads us back to my previous statement regarding Reason and Islam. One cannot have reasonable debate with a belief that does not follow reason, much less reconcile with science.

well, no religion can survive the test of reason alone. My Bible has a talking donkey, mountains that skip and dance, an ark that held two of every animal in the world, a world that is less than 6,000 years old, two magic trees and 40 years of meals with free delivery from heaven.

 

[Chancellare]

well, no religion can survive the test of reason alone. My Bible has a talking donkey, mountains that skip and dance, an ark that held two of every animal in the world, a world that is less than 6,000 years old, two magic trees and 40 years of meals with free delivery from heaven.

Allegory and parables aside, that is.

 

[Valke2]

Allegory and parables aside, that is.

I don’t know if the talking donkey, mana, or ark are considered allegory or parable by the majority of jews or christians.