A sign that you are wrong?

[zachattack05]

Another question that my girlfriend brought up (I hope you guys don’t mind me asking all of this) is that if protestants are wrong, why has God not told her or others?

The first thing that went through my mind, but that I didn’t say was (I’m telling you now, and maybe God is using me!)

Any thoughts? Or examples from the Bible that show someone doing something against God, but no one telling them?

 

[puzzleannie]

If your protestant friend believes the doctrine of sola scriptura she also believes that God has spoken through the bible to tell her everything she needs to know, so she already believes God has spoken to tell her what is right or wrong. The question is whether she believes what God has said, and if there is a disagreement about the meaning or interpretation of his Word, who has the final say? Catholics believe the Holy Spirit who inspired the scripture also inspires their interpretation, and that He does this through the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ to preserve and hand on Divine Revelation on earth. You would have to ask her, if she believes the Holy Spirit inspires each individual to interpret the meaning of scripture for herself, why we do not all come up with the same answer.

short answer: God has spoken clearly, most of us just don’t want to listen or accept what he has said.

 

[zachattack05]

puzzleannie:

short answer: God has spoken clearly, most of us just don’t want to listen or accept what he has said.

Oooo I like that! Can I steal that?

 

[jimmy]

zachattack05:

Another question that my girlfriend brought up (I hope you guys don’t mind me asking all of this) is that if protestants are wrong, why has God not told her or others?

The first thing that went through my mind, but that I didn’t say was (I’m telling you now, and maybe God is using me!)

Any thoughts? Or examples from the Bible that show someone doing something against God, but no one telling them?

God has told many protestants. Scott Hahn(was presbyterian minister, current), Tim Staples(Babtist seminarian, current), John Cardinal Newman(Anglican, 1800’s), Philip Hughs(I think Lutheran, early 1900’s), and Karl Adams(From Anglicanism, early 1900’s) are just a few of the convert theologians who were convinced that protestantism was error.

The same question can be reversed on her. God never told anyone that Catholicism was wrong. God never appeared to Luther and Calvin and Weasley and all the other deformers. They strayed on there own.

God convinced 70 thousand Calvinists through St. Francis de Sales that protestantism is error.

Here are some of the protestant ministers from The Journey Home program that have converted to Catholicism. God has convinced them protestantism is error.

Dr. H. Graham Hudgins - Former Episcople Priest
David J. Webster - Former Baptist Minister
Drake & Crystal McCalister - Former Pentecostal Minister
Monte Waddill - Former Baptist Minister
Paul Thigpen - Former Methodist Minister
Peter Holmes - Former Lutheran Minister
Dr. David Twellman - Former United Methodist Minister
Richard K. Howick - Former Presbyterian Minister
Dr. Paul Schenck - Jewish Convert And Former Reformed Episcople Minister
Dr. Doug Grandon - Former Episcople Clergyman
Dean Purdy - Former Anglican Priest
Dr. K. Mike Franklin - Former United Methodixt Minister
Al Kresta - Former Non-Denominational Minister
Fr. Kazimierz Kowalski - Former Lutheran Pastor
Alex Jones - Former Pentecostal Minister
John Scott, MD - Former Presbyterian Minister
Gerald & Jennifer Tritle - Former Reformed Minister And Wife
Michael Maturen - Former Priest With The Communion Of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
Ned South - Former Episcopal Priest
Dr. Robert Stackpole - Former Anglican Priest
Doug Gonzales - Former Nazarene Minister
Dr. Scott Hahn - Former Presbyterian Minister
Jeffrey W. Bail - Former Baptist Minister
Noah Lett - Former Lutheran Minister
Dr. Robert Rice - Former Pentecostal Minister
Fr. Steven D. Anderson - Former Charismatic Episcopal Priest
Fr. Gray Bean & Gordon Sibley - Former Southern Baptist And Methodist Ministers

That is after looking at the first 3 pages in the EWTN archives. It goes on for another 10 pages. There are several lay protestants on there that have converted as well.

 

[forthright]

zachattack05:

Any thoughts? Or examples from the Bible that show someone doing something against God, but no one telling them?

Look at the Old Testament history of Israel. It is filled with stories of large numbers of Israelites going off and doing there own thing. I can’t think of a single example where God appears to the entire nation and tells them all at once that they are misled. Instead, he sends his message through the leaders and prophets. Her task should be to determine which leaders are truly representing God’s will.

 

[zachattack05]

jimmy:

God never appeared to Luther and Calvin and Weasley and all the other deformers. They strayed on there own.

My girlfriend actually brought this up. I have no argument for it either.

How do we know that God didn’t tell Luther that the Catholic’s were wrong and to leave but not say anything. There are many times in the Bible where God says “do this, but don’t tell people I told you to do it.”

 

[jimmy]

zachattack05:

My girlfriend actually brought this up. I have no argument for it either.

How do we know that God didn’t tell Luther that the Catholic’s were wrong and to leave but not say anything. There are many times in the Bible where God says “do this, but don’t tell people I told you to do it.”

It is purely speculation that your girlfriend is bringing up. It is not a valid arguement. Further, even if Luther or Calvin did have a vision who is to say it was from God. They turn Luther and Calvin into prophets and reform the Church which Christ established. They had no mission to oppose Catholicism. If you look at Christ, He did not oppose the teachings of the Jews. He in fact supported them. He fullfilled the prophecies of the prophets. He was predicted. Luther was not predicted, there were no prophecies of him, and he did not agree with the Church which was established from the foundations of the world. He brought in his own biases and his own feelings. His theology was new. There is nothing that says that Luther or Calvin or Weasley or any of the other deformers should be followed.

There are two kinds of mission. There is mediate and immediate. Immediate is directly from God, mediate is from the Church. Luther certainly had no mediate mission because he outright opposed the teachings of the Church. There is no proof that he had an immediate mission either. Further even if there was so called proof that there was an immediate mission, it must be in agreement with the Church. Christ, the true reformer, did not even change the teachings of the Jews. Every time that God gives a mission to a person, it is in agreement with the teaching that is already in existence. Otherwise there is no way to tell that this person is not just some fraud saying he is bringing truth.

I suggest a great book by St. Francis de Sales called The Catholic Controvercy. It is his defense against the Calvinists in France. There were 70 thousand of them, 4 years after he came to town there were maybe a few Calvinists left while the rest had converted to Catholicism. It is a very good defense.

 

[jimmy]

zachattack05:

My girlfriend actually brought this up. I have no argument for it either.

How do we know that God didn’t tell Luther that the Catholic’s were wrong and to leave but not say anything. There are many times in the Bible where God says “do this, but don’t tell people I told you to do it.”

There is no arguement for it because it is not a defense of her point of view. If they told no one that they had a vision then no one should speculate that they could have had a vision. As I said above even if Luther had a vision, it could have been from satan or just part of his imagination. A vision is no reason to change doctrine, in fact all visions should be in agreement with the established doctrine. A private revelation of Luthers would be exactly that, private. It is not a mission given to the person to reform the Church.

 

[jimmy]

Maybe if I have some time later I will give a couple short excerpts from the St. Francis de Sales book. They should explain what I am saying a little better.

 

[Rebecca_New]

zachattack05:

My girlfriend actually brought this up. I have no argument for it either.

How do we know that God didn’t tell Luther that the Catholic’s were wrong and to leave but not say anything. There are many times in the Bible where God says “do this, but don’t tell people I told you to do it.”

Yes, but then the people did just the opposite-they told everyone. I have been spiritually touched by several protestant ministers, their words of wisdom and compassionate interpatation of scripture is enlightening at times and correct with what we believe. I always find myself saying"I only wished they knew the whole truth-how much more joy they would have."

 

[zachattack05]

jimmy:

Maybe if I have some time later I will give a couple short excerpts from the St. Francis de Sales book. They should explain what I am saying a little better.

I would really appreciate that. I will also check to see if my university library has it.