A silly simple question on sexual orientation (re gay marriage)

[AmateurPianist]

In another thread somebody articulated this sentence:

I accept the diversity that exists between people concerning their sexual orientation IS GOD GIVEN and revealed through nature by that diversity…God’s amazing creation in all it’s diversity. I embrace that diversity…God made male and female in His image…in Christ there is no male nor female…gay or straight…bond or free. That is the diversity and freedom we have in Christ.

This I think sums up the Christian pro gay marriage argument quite well:
(1) Since science teaches that sexual orientation is an immutable human characteriestic, one therefore must conclude that one’s sexual orientation comes from God
(2) Since the diverse sexual orientations come from God, as a Christian we should embrace this God given diversity.
(3) There is nothing wrong with acting on the sexual orientation that God has given. Society must not discriminate at all on the basis of sexual orientation.

Yet elsewhere in this thread I learned that science teaches there are actually seven sexual orientations:

1. Heterosexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions exclusively for the opposite sex of the appropriate age.

1. Regressed Heterosexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions exclusively for the opposite sex with no regard to age (including children).

1. Bisexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions for both opposite same sex of the appropriate age.

1. Regressed Bisexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions for both opposite same sex with no regard to age (including children).

1. Homosexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions exclusively for the same sex of the appropriate age.

1. Regressed Homosexuality - Sexual feelings, desires, and emotions exclusively for the same sex with no regard to age (including children)

1. Fixated - Sexual feelings desires and emotions exclusively for children with no regard to gender.

(later on in that thread I also learned there was a sexual orientation towards animals)

My simple question is do you apply these statements to all sexual orientations that science says exist.

If not, then why should I believe these arguments at all since they are not applied to all sexual orientations science says exist.

Why can’t I believe that maybe sexual orientation just might be a result of living in a fallen world and there are some sexual orientations (2-7) that God says acting out on are contrary to what He has designed.

 

[edwest2]

What does the Church teach? An unmarried man or unmarried woman cannot have sex. Period. It has taken 40 years of people living in “alternative lifestyles” telling everyone to ‘mind your own business’ that has confused the issue. Cohabitation with sex but without marriage? Still wrong.

What does the Catholic Medical Association say?

narth.com/docs/hope.html

God bless,
Ed

 

[AmateurPianist]

What does the Church teach? An unmarried man or unmarried woman cannot have sex. Period. It has taken 40 years of people living in “alternative lifestyles” telling everyone to ‘mind your own business’ that has confused the issue. Cohabitation with sex but without marriage? Still wrong.

What does the Catholic Medical Association say?

narth.com/docs/hope.html
God bless,
Ed

I for one agree 100% with the Catholic church on this issue.

So does my church.

I like that article and agree with it.

I I believed that same-sex sexual orientation came from God, consistency would force me to believe that the sexual orientations toward children come from God.

Then I would either be forced to believe that paedophilia a part of God’s design, or that God gave some sexual orientations that were not meant to be acted on.

To me, the simplest explantion is that alternate sexual orientations are somehow a part of the fall and do not come from God. I think that is what your article is saying, albeit in a lot more words.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Yet elsewhere in this thread I learned that science teaches there are actually seven sexual orientations…

“Science” doesn’t teach anything. You’re talking about the opinion of SOME scientists. But other scientists disagree.

The real question is: ARE there seven sexual orientations? I guess we would have to look carefully at specific scientific studies to find out. And even then, we wouldn’t be sure.

 

[FaithJoy]

To say science is the mediator of understanding is just plain wrong. Scientists have been wrong more on any given subjects in history than other sources time and time again. I hate it when people say, "listen to the scientists they know the truth ".Anyway, there or many given testimonies of gay people going to straight. It is a choice to be gay, a sexual perversion of what God wants.

 

[Nec5]

To say science is the mediator of understanding is just plain wrong. Scientists have been wrong more on any given subjects in history than other sources time and time again. I hate it when people say, "listen to the scientists they know the truth ".Anyway, there or many given testimonies of gay people going to straight. It is a choice to be gay, a sexual perversion of what God wants.

I believe it’s called positivism. You can only believe what is testable and provable. A very limiting and ultimately ignorant proposition.

 

[unacanta]

I for one agree 100% with the Catholic church on this issue.

So does my church.

I like that article and agree with it.

I I believed that same-sex sexual orientation came from God, consistency would force me to believe that the sexual orientations toward children come from God.

Then I would either be forced to believe that paedophilia a part of God’s design, or that God gave some sexual orientations that were not meant to be acted on.

To me, the simplest explantion is that alternate sexual orientations are somehow a part of the fall and do not come from God. I think that is what your article is saying, albeit in a lot more words.

Why do you even bother going to church? There are clear and concise teachings concerning this matter in the bible which you do not agree. If one does not aree with what the Bible teaches, I suggest trying something that fits your secular world view. Better yet, repent and learn the ways of the Lord.

 

[havana1]

You keep saying “science” this, and “science” that, but you don’t give any sources. Do you have any reliable sources for what “science” says? “Science” in and of itself does not teach anything. The scientific method is an ongoing process - it’s not “one and done,” as you seem to be implying.

 

[havana1]

To say science is the mediator of understanding is just plain wrong. Scientists have been wrong more on any given subjects in history than other sources time and time again. I hate it when people say, "listen to the scientists they know the truth ".Anyway, there or many given testimonies of gay people going to straight. It is a choice to be gay, a sexual perversion of what God wants.

Um, actually there “many given testimonies” of people who were never gay to begin with. There’s no such as ‘ex-gay.’ The behaviors are chosen, but the underlying orientation behind the behaviors…that underlying orientation isn’t chosen.

 

[cecilia97]

In another thread somebody articulated this sentence:

This I think sums up the Christian pro gay marriage argument quite well:
(1) Since science teaches that sexual orientation is an immutable human characteriestic, one therefore must conclude that one’s sexual orientation comes from God
(2) Since the diverse sexual orientations come from God, as a Christian we should embrace this God given diversity.
(3) There is nothing wrong with acting on the sexual orientation that God has given. Society must not discriminate at all on the basis of sexual orientation.

Yet elsewhere in this thread I learned that science teaches there are actually seven sexual orientations:

(later on in that thread I also learned there was a sexual orientation towards animals)

My simple question is do you apply these statements to all sexual orientations that science says exist.

If not, then why should I believe these arguments at all since they are not applied to all sexual orientations science says exist.

Why can’t I believe that maybe sexual orientation just might be a result of living in a fallen world and there are some sexual orientations (2-7) that God says acting out on are contrary to what He has designed.

There is a genetic, heritable (i.e. comes from God) component to all these things, too:

antisocial personality disorder
alcoholism
drug abuse
bipolar disorder
schizophrenia

…yet we understand that those things destroy lives and we do our best to improve the conditions of those who deal with them (and their loved ones).

The human condition is fallen and broken. We have all sorts of “natural” urges that we shouldn’t act on: violence, suicide, anger, hatred, greed, etc.

Unmarried people (I speak of sacramental marriage as instituted by its creator - God) of any sexual orientation, if they want to follow God, should not be having sex of any sort. This goes for me as well as those attracted to the same sex. …and people attracted to animals…and people attracted to children…etc.

Catholics do not ask any more of homosexual people than we ask of ourselves and our clergy.

If homosexual persons want to have sex, I can’t and won’t try to stop them. I’m also not naive enough to expect non-Christians to follow Christian morality. But my Church will not recognize their unions…I have complete confidence that this will never change, however clever the arguments get.

 

[SteveVH]

There is a genetic, heritable (i.e. comes from God) component to all these things, too:

antisocial personality disorder
alcoholism
drug abuse
bipolar disorder
schizophrenia

…yet we understand that those things destroy lives and we do our best to improve the conditions of those who deal with them (and their loved ones).

The human condition is fallen and broken. We have all sorts of “natural” urges that we shouldn’t act on: violence, suicide, anger, hatred, greed, etc.

Unmarried people (I speak of sacramental marriage as instituted by its creator - God) of any sexual orientation, if they want to follow God, should not be having sex of any sort. This goes for me as well as those attracted to the same sex. …and people attracted to animals…and people attracted to children…etc.

Catholics do not ask any more of homosexual people than we ask of ourselves and our clergy.

If homosexual persons want to have sex, I can’t and won’t try to stop them. I’m also not naive enough to expect non-Christians to follow Christian morality. But my Church will not recognize their unions…I have complete confidence that this will never change, however clever the arguments get.

I’m glad I waited for your post before responding. I could not have said it better.

 

[cecilia97]

I’m glad I waited for your post before responding. I could not have said it better.

:blushing:

 

[SteveVH]

:blushing:

 

[AmateurPianist]

Why do you even bother going to church? There are clear and concise teachings concerning this matter in the bible which you do not agree. If one does not aree with what the Bible teaches, I suggest trying something that fits your secular world view. Better yet, repent and learn the ways of the Lord.

What have I said (that I said I agree with) that goes against the Bible.

Please supply the quote (and where I said I agreed with it).

Otherwise stop putting words in my mouth and learn to listen.

 

[AmateurPianist]

“Science” doesn’t teach anything. You’re talking about the opinion of SOME scientists. But other scientists disagree.

The real question is: ARE there seven sexual orientations? I guess we would have to look carefully at specific scientific studies to find out. And even then, we wouldn’t be sure.

As far as I can figure out the “science” here ultimately rests on the stories of those that claim the sexual orientation. Now the stories might be told anecdotally, in a survey, or in a controlled laboratory setting…but it seems to me (absent a genetic component) that it ultimately rests on stories.

The problem here is that those with a sexual orientation towards children have parallel stories.

And science is incapable of determining whether a given activity conforms to the will of God or is against the will of God.

At least that is the best I can figure out…

 

[AmateurPianist]

You keep saying “science” this, and “science” that, but you don’t give any sources. Do you have any reliable sources for what “science” says? “Science” in and of itself does not teach anything. The scientific method is an ongoing process - it’s not “one and done,” as you seem to be implying.

All I am doing is relaying what others have told me in another thread.

One person told me that science has shown that sexual orientation is immutable.

Another person told me there are 7 sexual orientations per science.

I am just trying to put 2+2 together and trying to ask some dumb questions concerning stuff that just is not adding up as far as the pro-gay argument goes.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Um, actually there “many given testimonies” of people who were never gay to begin with. There’s no such as ‘ex-gay.’ The behaviors are chosen, but the underlying orientation behind the behaviors…that underlying orientation isn’t chosen.

So many questions?

If it is not chosen, then where does it come from? God?

Where does an orientation towards children come from? God?

If it comes from God, why would God give a sexual orientation as a gift, and then not expect one to act out on it? Unless of course God is cool with adults acting out on sexual orientations toward children.

How do you know they were never gay to begin with? If you listen to their stories they claim they were gay. Why should I believe the stories of those who claim it is immutable and not believe the stories of those who claim they changed?

An article cited earlier in post 2 I think has this paragraph. Why shouldn’t I believe it?

Jeffrey Satinover, MD and Ph.D., has written of his extensive experience with patients experiencing same-sex attraction:

"I have been extraordinarily fortunate to have met many people who have emerged from the gay life. When I see the personal difficulties they have squarely faced, the sheer courage they have displayed not only in facing these difficulties but also in confronting a culture that uses every possible means to deny the validity of their values, goals, and experiences, I truly stand back in wonder... It is these people -- former homosexuals and those who are still struggling, all across America and aboard -- who stand for me as a model of everything good and possible in a world that takes the human heart, and the God of that heart, seriously. In my various explorations within the worlds of psychoanalysis, psychotherapy, and psychiatry, I have simply never before seen such profound healing." (Satinover 1996)

 

[AndrewA]

Why do you think sexual orientation comes from God?
Being sexual(that is, having sexual desires) is part of our human existence, not given to us individually by God.
However, if one believes in God one should follow his laws, right?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

As Christians all, we should be concerned with the higher truth in this issue, virtue. Fallen man without grace is inclined to evil which is a deficiency of perfection, a defect in the fullness of some good. Sexuality as given by God is good when united with His Grace (participating in His Nature which is Goodness itself). Sex is good when it corresponds to the natural law (given by God inherently) and His Eternal Law (given in Divine Revelation). The one who lives this virtue through God’s Grace is living as God intended him to be and is at peace and is blessed by God. It isn’t easy or at times fun but it is deeply rewarding temporally and spiritually.

Any person with same sex attraction or any other attraction contrary to God’s Nature sins when giving in to these desires. The truth is that God made us to be with Him, sin separates us from God and no sin shall enter into God’s Blessedness of heaven.

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was past away, and the sea is now no more. …27 There shall not enter it any thing defiled, or any one that worketh abomination, or a lie, but they who are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Grace is required to break free of sin, to be moved to God. Prayer, fasting and sacrifice for sinners to be moved to accept this grace is at the heart of Our Lady’s message at Fatima and Jesus to St. Faustina, which is highlighted in the Gospel itself but needed to be reiterated for our times.

Our own continuing conversion and preaching the blessedness of God’s Spirit in us is of paramount importance to show the fruits of the truth of our nature perfected by God’s Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ.

 

[AntiTheist]

There is a genetic, heritable (i.e. comes from God) component to all these things, too:

antisocial personality disorder
alcoholism
drug abuse
bipolar disorder
schizophrenia

…yet we understand that those things destroy lives and we do our best to improve the conditions of those who deal with them (and their loved ones).

Ah, so can you tell us how homosexuality “destroys lives”?

Surely, you’re not going to say, “Homosexuals get diseases!” or “Some of them have unstable relationships!” because both are true of heterosexuals as well.

The fact of the matter is that all of our behaviors have some biological inclination behind them. Some things – like people drinking heavily when they are inclined towards alcoholism, for example – demonstrably cause harm and can result in death and destroyed relationships. Other things – like two consenting adults doing whatever the heck they like in privacy – are completely harmless, in addition to being absolutely nobody else’s business.

Religious opinions need to stay out of secular laws.