A simple argument refuting Faith Alone

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What I do not understand is why no one seems to understand what the works of the law are and why Paul says you are not justified by them. The works of the law are the rituals the Jews did to be either part of the convenant (cricumcison) or to purify ones-self from sin (sacrifices, washing hands, fasting, not eating with gentiles, etc.)

The reason for why Paul is saying you are not justified by these works is because for one they are no longer needed. Christ has fullfiled the Old Testament laws and they are now abrogated. Secondly Paul is stating that your not jusitifed by the works of the law but by faith is because back in those days the people (and the people in present times) thought of themselves as being justified as long as they did these rituals even if they didnt really believe in them. They didnt really care about having faith because they thought as long as I wash my hands and not eat with certian people then regardless of if I beleive in God or not I will be saved since I did the works of the law. Basically they were like agnostics saying hey God could be true and God might not be true but as long as I do the works of the law I will be justified regardless and therefore ok if God does exist. Furthermore some of them also thought that they were the cause of their own jusitfication and not by Gods grace. This made them self rightous and they held themselves high up above others and it is because they were so spiritually prideful they couldnt even see Christ when he came to them in humility.

This is what Paul is warining us about! He is telling us that it is becaue Christ abrogated these laws of purification that they are no longer good or bad and that they no longer take sin away or purify the person doing them. They are NOTHING. The only thing that matters now is that all your works (actions through the day) are DONE WITH CHARITY AND FAITH IN CHRIST AND FOR CHRIST! There are no more works of the Law there is just your FAITH and the WORKS you do as a result of your FAITH and CHARITY because “FAITH without WORKS is dead”–James 2:26

The same message Paul is saying back then rings true today. Christians everywhere feel that they can live sinful lives just because they beleive in Christ or because they profess him as their personal Lord and Saviour while at the same time not lifting a fingure to follow Gods will but instead just doing their own. They are not justified by this faith becaue that faith is dead. Heck even the devil has that much faith. Satan believes in Christ and knows Him to be the Lord and Saviour of the world but does that justify Satan? Could that justify Satan? No! Absolutely not and it wont justify us!
I totally agree. I did not bring it up because I don’t remember seeing “works of the law” in any of the original posts. I may have missed them, though. You are 100% correct on what St. Paul meant when speaking about “works of the law”. He was not talking about all good works.

Good post, Heliotropium. Thank you.

Pax Christi
 
This seems to be contradictory. If he says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, how is he not saying by faith alone? He is saying it is not by works we are justified, but by faith, understanding that the faith we are talking about is an active faith, one that obeys the commands of Christ to care for the least of his children.

Jon
Here are the two possibilities for interpreting Romans 3:28, “faith apart from works of the Law”:

If “works of the law” means “all works,” then we get:
“faith minus all works” = “faith alone”

If “works of the law” means “a few works (e.g. circumcision),” then we get:
“faith minus a few works, like circumcision” = “faith plus some works”

Logically speaking, only the first option has any chance of amounting to “faith alone” (assuming things like Love and Hope are also works). The second option only rules out some works, not all.

It all depends on how “works of the law” is being interpreted. Since we know circumcision is a “work of the law,” we know “works of the law” doesn’t mean good works in general since circumcision only applies to Jews and not all mankind.
 
Here are the two possibilities for interpreting Romans 3:28, “faith apart from works of the Law”:

If “works of the law” means “all works,” then we get:
“faith minus all works” = “faith alone”

If “works of the law” means “a few works (e.g. circumcision),” then we get:
“faith minus a few works, like circumcision” = “faith plus some works”

Logically speaking, only the first option has any chance of amounting to “faith alone” (assuming things like Love and Hope are also works). The second option only rules out some works, not all.

It all depends on how “works of the law” is being interpreted. Since we know circumcision is a “work of the law,” we know “works of the law” doesn’t mean good works in general since circumcision only applies to Jews and not all mankind.
However, it doesn’t exclude the meaning of good works in general. either. The issue between Lutherans and Catholics is not the necessity of good works. On this we agree.
The issue is what do good works do. For Lutherans, we do not speak of good works in regards justification.
Formula of Concord, epitome
We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4:6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.
Good works, however, are required of the regenerate:
We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works. Bound here does not simply mean certain, but also required]
9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.
10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.
11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.
Red insert is mine.
So, Ephesians tells us that justification is by grace through faith, it is a gift of God, and not of ourselves. To this point, if you are telling me that the good works we do are our partcipation in our sanctification and therefore are actually the good works of the Spirit working through you, then I agree. Of course, if this is the case, we can claim no merit in them (lest anyone would boast).

Jon
 
So, Ephesians tells us that justification is by grace through faith, it is a gift of God, and not of ourselves. To this point, if you are telling me that the good works we do are our partcipation in our sanctification and therefore are actually the good works of the Spirit working through you, then I agree. Of course, if this is the case, we can claim no merit in them (lest anyone would boast).

Jon
JonNC

We are talking in circles. Bottom line is this. Our works do affect our salvation. According to your own writings, you agree. Catholicism does not teach that our works alone can merit us salvation; however, they certainly affect it by either placing us outside of God’s grace or keeping us in it. I don’t think we disagree. You just seem very attached to the phrase “Faith Alone” when you clearly describe it as something different. The phrase “Faith Alone” is clearly deficient in what you claim it to mean.

Pax Christi
 
JonNC,

I was a Missouri Synod Lutheran up till a year ago. I am 34 years old. Last Easter I was brought into the fullness of God’s Truth. I understand your hesitation to let go of those things that have been taught to you all your life. There is much ignorance out there concerning the Catholic Church and unfortunately many Catholics share in that ignorance. I for one was totally depraved of what the Catholic Church believes and what their history is. You seem very knowledgeable of your faith and that is a good thing. God can work with those that are zealous (St. Paul), but he can not work with slothfulness or laziness.

I wish you the best, my friend. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
 
However, it doesn’t exclude the meaning of good works in general. either. The issue between Lutherans and Catholics is not the necessity of good works. On this we agree.
The issue is what do good works do. For Lutherans, we do not speak of good works in regards justification.
Formula of Concord, epitome

Good works, however, are required of the regenerate:

Red insert is mine.
So, Ephesians tells us that justification is by grace through faith, it is a gift of God, and not of ourselves. To this point, if you are telling me that the good works we do are our partcipation in our sanctification and therefore are actually the good works of the Spirit working through you, then I agree. Of course, if this is the case, we can claim no merit in them (lest anyone would boast).
Jon
This is why I no longer discuss “justification” or “salvation” with non-Catholics. There are simply too many areas of confusion regarding basic definitions. It’s 500 years later and we still can’t agree on “salvation” and “justification”…
The issue that is clearest in Scripture is “inheriting the Kingdom of God” - ie, going to Heaven when we die. **
Who cares, really, if you are saved by faith alone or justified by faith alone if you still havent eliminated the possibility of being condemned to Hell for all eternity when you die?**
On inheriting the KOG the Scriptural witness is abundantly clear: love (good works) and avoiding serious unrepentant sin are conditions. To me this reality obviates all of Luther’s other theological issues. If you wish to discuss the requirements for going to Heaven, which is every Christians ultimate goal, then lets talk about it. Everyone agrees on what it means to go to Heaven(ie inherit the KOG).

Blessings!
 
I totally agree. I did not bring it up because I don’t remember seeing “works of the law” in any of the original posts. I may have missed them, though. You are 100% correct on what St. Paul meant when speaking about “works of the law”. He was not talking about all good works.

Good post, Heliotropium. Thank you.

Pax Christi
Exactly shocktrooper 🙂 There is a very important note people should make about what Paul said. He said we are not justified by the works of the LAW. Paul did not say that we are not justified by works period though. Paul is clearly not saying FAITH ALONE. In fact James clarifies that works are indispensible to faith when he makes the comparison that a spirit is indispensible for the body to live.

***As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. ***–James 2:26

What Paul is saying is that the works of the Law, the rituals and customs used for purification and for remission of sin can no longer help you. Christ the perfect sacrifice has done away with them and for good reason since a lot of the Jews were doing these things as if THEY were bringing about their own salvation while not BELIVING with FAITH that God was the one responsible for conferring graces through those rituals. This is why they were scandalized by Christ humility. Because Christ showed them how they should be living and that they like Him should be humble and not boast about the works of the Law they performed because they didn’t sanctify themselves by their own power but by God’s grace! Christ showed them their sin of pride and that they had took God out of the works of the law and in doing so had made themselves idols. Christ was a contradiction to them because Christ performed all the same works of the Law but he never boasted of Himself. Christ showed them that they forgot the fact that ALL things depend on God and Gods saving grace and that without out this grace which comes from FAITH their rituals weren’t worth a darn thing.
 
=shocktrooper;7620377]JonNC
We are talking in circles. Bottom line is this. Our works do affect our salvation. According to your own writings, you agree. Catholicism does not teach that our works alone can merit us salvation; however, they certainly affect it by either placing us outside of God’s grace or keeping us in it. I don’t think we disagree.
You’re right, we don’t disagree. Works works are evidence of our justification. Our works are in response - obedience - to the One who makes our salvation possible by His all-atoning sacrifice on the cross.
You just seem very attached to the phrase “Faith Alone” when you clearly describe it as something different. The phrase “Faith Alone” is clearly deficient in what you claim it to mean.
Using Luther’s words earlier, I did describe exactly what *sola fide *means. Perhaps, as a simple cliche it is deficient, as what it has been portrayed to mean, particularly by other protestants, is incorrect.
Pax Christi
His peace also with you,
Jon
 
Define “necessity” and it’s eternal consequences
Necessity as in obedience to the Savior. He calls on us to care for the least of His children. Failure to heed His commandsis, by nature sin. Repeated, unrepented sin is a rejection of grace.

Jon
 
He said we are not justified by the works of the LAW. Paul did not say that we are not justified by works period though. Paul is clearly not saying FAITH ALONE. In fact James clarifies that works are indispensible to faith when he makes the comparison that a spirit is indispensible for the body to live.

***As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. ***–James 2:26
You use the word “indispensible”, and I used the word “necessity”. And you are correct when you say that worksd are indispensible to faith, or at least a true, saving faith.
And James is also exactly correct: a faith that has no works is a dead faith, and not a saving faith. So, as Galatians says, we are saved by faith, working through love.

Jon
 
You use the word “indispensible”, and I used the word “necessity”. And you are correct when you say that worksd are indispensible to faith, or at least a true, saving faith.
And James is also exactly correct: a faith that has no works is a dead faith, and not a saving faith. So, as Galatians says, we are saved by faith, working through love.

Jon
Yes love because out of the three as Paul also says, CHARITY (love) is the most important. Why? This is because those who do works with love make them good because they respond to Gods grace and do His will. They allow God to work in them. Yet If I have faith in God, and feed the poor but I do not love the poor then my works and my faith are nothing because if I transgress one law I have trangressed them all. If I dont love my neighbor I dont truly love Christ, and vice versa if I do not truly love Christ then I do not truly love my neighbor. However if I didnt know God (through no fault of my own) but yet feed the poor because I love my fellow man well then I still receive Gods grace and will be saved because I have still cooperated with His will to the best of my ability. This however will not be the case for those who purposley deny God, and His Holy Church, because as stated above if you dont love God with your whole mind, heart, body, and soul then you also do not love your neighbor, and your works are nothing.

***“If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?”–1 John 4:20 ***

***“No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”–1 John 4:12 ***

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."–John 13:35
 
You know, it is a tremendous work of the Devil to divide those by words, who agree by action.

JonNC,
I would bet that there is not much that we would disagree on that a good Christian will do who will ultimately get to heaven. We might disagree on what is cause and what is effect, but the bottom line is that I think we all agree that those that will enter heaven will be those that have faith in God and do good works out of love for God and Man. This is in fact, the natural law written on our hearts.

I do wish that you would join us in the grace giving sacraments and the Catholic devotions that lead to holiness but otherwise, I don’t think we are far apart…
 
You know, it is a tremendous work of the Devil to divide those by words, who agree by action.

JonNC,
I would bet that there is not much that we would disagree on that a good Christian will do who will ultimately get to heaven. We might disagree on what is cause and what is effect, but the bottom line is that I think we all agree that those that will enter heaven will be those that have faith in God and do good works out of love for God and Man. This is in fact, the natural law written on our hearts.

I do wish that you would join us in the grace giving sacraments and the Catholic devotions that lead to holiness but otherwise, I don’t think we are far apart…
My brother Paul,
I agree with your post here, and sincerely appreciate your warm invitation. As you can tell, it is not the doctrine of Justification that prevents my being in communion with Rome.

Jon
 
Necessity as in obedience to the Savior. He calls on us to care for the least of His children. Failure to heed His commands is, by nature sin. Repeated, unrepented sin is a rejection of grace.
Jon
OK, Jon…so let’s wrap it up and not leave so many loose ends so as to make our statements potentially meaningless:
  • After one has been “saved” (accepted Christ, believes in heart, born again, etc etc) what, exactly, is the eternal consequence of the “rejection of grace” should one die in that state? If you can, please include the words “inherit the KOG” in your answer…
  • What options are available to one who is alive (physically) in that state to avoid the otherwise impending eternal consequence you describe above?
Blessings!
 
OK, Jon…so let’s wrap it up and not leave so many loose ends so as to make our statements potentially meaningless:
  • After one has been “saved” (accepted Christ, believes in heart, born again, etc etc) what, exactly, is the eternal consequence of the “rejection of grace” should one die in that state? If you can, please include the words “inherit the KOG” in your answer…
  • What options are available to one who is alive (physically) in that state to avoid the otherwise impending eternal consequence you describe above?
Blessings!
Philthy,
I think you are making the wrong assumption with JonNC. He is not an OSAS proponent. He agrees that you can fall from faith and be condemned. Indeed, he is much closer to the Catholic position than most other Protestants. His argument is that you are saved by Faith alone and that that faith must result in good works to be real and effective faith. In his view, if you don’t do good works, you don’t have real faith so in effect, there is no functional difference between him and Catholics on the requirement of good works to get to heaven.

So our issue on Faith alone isn’t big with Lutherans such as JonNC, but with those that have slipped further down the slippery slope of Sola Fide to the point where they don’t believe that sin or good works matter and where you can never be condemned once you have declared your faith. Those that take this position have played right into the hands of Satan, who waits for those that don’t do the good works they’ve been called to do.
 
Hi Philthy,
I hope you will indulge my use of the Lutheran Confessions.
=Philthy;7622419]OK, Jon…so let’s wrap it up and not leave so many loose ends so as to make our statements potentially meaningless:
  • After one has been “saved” (accepted Christ, believes in heart, born again, etc etc) what, exactly, is the eternal consequence of the “rejection of grace” should one die in that state? If you can, please include the words “inherit the KOG” in your answer…
Lutherans tend to use terms such as “justified”, and “regenerate”. I’ve always felt more at home listening to EWTN radio than to evangelical Christian stations because our language is closer to Catholic than to protestant. But on your question, here is what the confessions say:
Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.
and
We also reject and condemn the dogma that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost are not lost by wilful sin, but that the saints and elect retain the Holy Ghost even though they fall into adultery and other sins and persist therein.
This second is a clear rejection of perseverance of saints.
  • What options are available to one who is alive (physically) in that state to avoid the otherwise impending eternal consequence you describe above?
Blessings!
I think, if I understand correctly, you are asking about what options are there for those who fall into mortal sin. Correct?
If so, here is the Augsburg Confession:
Article XII: Of Repentance.
1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.
7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.
Hopefully, that answers your questions. If not, I’ll be happy to respond further.

Jon
 
In the course of talking with a Protestant, I came up with an argument I think refutes Faith Alone by failing to understand what kind of works Paul was condemning. Here is the argument:
Just out of curiosity, what, in addition to authentic faith, is needed? What would you add to it? Faith + what else?
  1. My first question to the Protestant is: In places like Acts 15:1 we see the Judaizers teach, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Does this mean circumcision a ‘good work’?
Yes. I think Paul considers circumcision to be a “work of the law.” There’s been a lot of debate about what that means exactly. The “New Perspective” people would have us believe that “works of the law” refer only to circumcision, ceremonial laws and other covenant-identity items from the Old Testament, but not things like love, hope, and other charitable good deeds. Thus the NP folks distinguish sharply between “works of the law” and “good works.” I don’t share their perspective. “Works of the law” cannot be so confined. “Work of the law” is “good works” and “good works” include not only ceremonial obligations, circumcision, and the like, but also such things as loving one’s neighbor.
  1. If circumcision is not a ‘good work’, then why would it make sense to say Paul was condemning all good works in general when he said “faith not works of the law”? (Keep in mind Paul condemned getting circumcised in places like Gal 5:3-4.)
I don’t think Paul condemns “good works” or “works of the law.” For example, Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

What Paul condemns is theology that would make good works a condition for salvation or the reception of grace. Paul considers the “works of the law” to be part of the Old Covenant that, while still having an ethical and moral authority, no longer has a soteriological authority. Or else how does Romans 6:14 make any sense? “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

Evidently Paul considers circumcision to a “work of the law,” and that if Christians were to accept circumcision for reasons the Judaizers were imposing it (rather than for, say, medical reasons), we would effectively be going back to being “under the law,” when in fact we are “under grace.”
  1. If circumcision is a ‘good work’, then why don’t Christians get circumcised and obey other laws (e.g. dietary laws) in the Law of Moses?
Because we’re under grace, not law.
At this point, the Protestant is in a bind, for if they say circumcision is a good work, then they have no reason why Christians are avoiding doing such ‘good works’. If they say no, it is not a good work, then they cannot argue Paul was arguing “faith alone” when he said ‘no’ to ‘works of the law’.
Yeah, I’m not seeing the bind here. Could you elaborate further? What would you say to Paul using this argument of yours? How do you think Paul would respond? (I think he might call you a Judaizer.)
 
Miguel,
Do you really beleive that having Faith is all that is required to go to heaven? If you are a disciple of Jesus Christ, then you should recognize that in addition to Faith, he said that you need to be born again of water and spirit (John 3), that you needed to eat his body and drink his blood (John 6), that you needed to follow the commandments (Matthew 19 and its corrollaries in Mark and Luke), You need to do works of Mercy (Matthew 25) and you need to love (John 13).

Even in Romans, Paul is clear that you must do good works to get to heaven. Read Romans 2: 5-16. Sure, Faith is required as is Grace, but there is more to it than that.

What is NOT required, as Paul points out, is to be circumcized or to follow the other laws that designated Jews as the chosen race of the Old Covenant. This has been replaced with the new Covenant after Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice. Circumcision is replaced by baptism and those that are baptized are the new chosen race, which anyone can join…
 
This is not a simple argument. I blame the OP for framing it that way.
Do I agree with the OP?
Yes.
He has the most logical argument, and it is basically a simple argument.
If you are talking to a person who already is willing to accept something very important happened that changed everything else.
If you are willing to be brave enough to accept that this singular event changed minds and hearts.

Then it would not be possible to think that one could wish for eternal life with the God who became human in the form of Jesus to share with all humans all things save sin if all that one needed to do was simply accept him as the Catholic Church describes him.

You would still need to fill in many gaps you can not with a faith alone position.

Explain why emulating Jesus would be a bad thing, and why he wasted so much time showing people how to do it.

If you compare this to the working world we all can understand, catholics would get all the promotions. Those sitting on their duffs hoping they can keep on being on their duffs would get…
 
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