A simple argument refuting Faith Alone

[Solus_Christus]

God determines if the individual was good enough at the Final Judgment. It is not equivalent to perfect though, else the provision for forgiveness would be nonsensical.

You are asserting here that God acts in a manner contrary to His nature by accepting something less than perfection. His standard, however, is perfection. Otherwise, most Jews acting under the Law would have been “good enough.” Not only that, but this supposition of yours precludes the need for a savior. After all, if God did not demand that we be holy even as He is holy, then surely He could forgive our falling short of that perfect standard.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans, he tells us something quite different. He does not tell us that God compromised His holy character. Rather, he tells us God did something to demonstrate His righteousness, all the while remaining perfectly just:

“God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.” (Romans 3:25-27)

Justice demands payment. If we can remit even a portion owed to God to satisfy justice, then boasting would not be excluded. Instead, Paul tells us it is God alone who justifies those who place their faith in Christ alone.

 

[Solus_Christus]

In the course of talking with a Protestant, I came up with an argument I think refutes Faith Alone by failing to understand what kind of works Paul was condemning. Here is the argument:

1. My first question to the Protestant is: In places like Acts 15:1 we see the Judaizers teach, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Does this mean circumcision a ‘good work’?
2. If circumcision is not a ‘good work’, then why would it make sense to say Paul was condemning all good works in general when he said “faith not works of the law”? (Keep in mind Paul condemned getting circumcised in places like Gal 5:3-4.)
3. If circumcision is a ‘good work’, then why don’t Christians get circumcised and obey other laws (e.g. dietary laws) in the Law of Moses?

At this point, the Protestant is in a bind, for if they say circumcision is a good work, then they have no reason why Christians are avoiding doing such ‘good works’. If they say no, it is not a good work, then they cannot argue Paul was arguing “faith alone” when he said ‘no’ to ‘works of the law’.

Your contrived predicament does not require a lengthy response. Paul said it best when he said:

“A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

In short, the answer is yes. Christians should be circumcised; They should be circumcised by a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. (notice the motive force here is the Spirit)

 

[paul_c]

Your contrived predicament does not require a lengthy response. Paul said it best when he said:

“A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

In short, the answer is yes. Christians should be circumcised; They should be circumcised by a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. (notice the motive force here is the Spirit)

Circumcision was the physical sign that a Jew would make to demonstrate their covenant agreement with God. in the new covenent, the physical sing of your consent is baptism. When you consent to being a follower of Christ by becoming a member of his Church, you are given new life, freed of previous sins and given the grace to do the good works to which you have been called. You call this being saved. But once saved, you must life the life of a Christian, avoiding sin and loving God and your fellow man. If you are unfaithful in doing this and do not reconcile sacramently, you will be condemned to hell.

 

[Solus_Christus]

But once saved, you must life the life of a Christian, avoiding sin and loving God and your fellow man. If you are unfaithful in doing this and do not reconcile sacramently, you will be condemned to hell.

It is a curious thing how important this sacrament of confession is, but is nowhere mentioned in the New Testament in the sense it is used by Catholics. If this sacrament of confession to an earthly priest is a necessity, then it seems like it would be an integral part of the gospel clearly proclaimed by the apostles. No?

My friend, someone has convinced you your spiritual and eternal security rest in your ability to reach the parish in time to be absolved of your mortal sins prior to some unforseen accident. I would encourage you rather to place your confidence in Jesus, as God Himself commends us to do through his servant Paul. He describes Jesus as both the author and the perfecter (finisher) of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). This is a much more secure hope if ever there was one. If you have faith in Christ’s ability to complete the good work He began in you, then you can say with Paul “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12)

One last reference for you. In the following passage, whom does it say not only began the good work in us, but is also the one who completes that work? Think about it: “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

 

[paul_c]

It is a curious thing how important this sacrament of confession is, but is nowhere mentioned in the New Testament in the sense it is used by Catholics. If this sacrament of confession to an earthly priest is a necessity, then it seems like it would be an integral part of the gospel clearly proclaimed by the apostles. No?

You have been decieved into thinking this. read John 20: 21-23 where the risen Jesus gives the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. This is the basis of the sacrament of reconciliation.

21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

My friend, someone has convinced you your spiritual and eternal security rest in your ability to reach the parish in time to be absolved of your mortal sins prior to some unforseen accident. I would encourage you rather to place your confidence in Jesus, as God Himself commends us to do through his servant Paul. He describes Jesus as both the author and the perfecter (finisher) of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). This is a much more secure hope if ever there was one. If you have faith in Christ’s ability to complete the good work He began in you, then you can say with Paul “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12)

Let me ask you, why would the risen Jesus give the apostles the power to forgive or retain sins if it wasn’t important? I know its seems nice to believe that Jesus will save you no matter what you do or don’t do, but unfortunatley, thats simply not how it works. You will be judged based on your actions. And if you do fall from grace through sin, God, in his mercy has provided the sacrament of reconciliation to get back in the state of grace.

One last reference for you. In the following passage, whom does it say not only began the good work in us, but is also the one who completes that work? Think about it: “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

Yes, this is true, if you cooperate with the graces given you. But you do have free will. You can choose to disobey and if you do, then you will be summarily condemned unless you gain forgiveness sacramentally as discussed above.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Your contrived predicament does not require a lengthy response. Paul said it best when he said:

“A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

In short, the answer is yes. Christians should be circumcised; They should be circumcised by a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. (notice the motive force here is the Spirit)

I would actually agree with this, but it doesn’t affect my original argument since physical circumcision was in view when Paul spoke of “works of the Law”.

 

[Solus_Christus]

I would actually agree with this, but it doesn’t affect my original argument since physical circumcision was in view when Paul spoke of “works of the Law”.

Paul’s point was NOT that works of the Law (ceremonial, moral, or otherwise) should be condemned. His point was that trusting in those works for our salvation should be condemned. The Jews were zealous to fulfill the letter of the Law because they thought they would thereby attain righteousness. What they failed to understand, however, is that they needed to fulfill not only the letter, but also the spirit of the Law (think of Christ’s discourse: “You have heard it said…but I tell you” Matthew 5:21-48). Once it is clear we must fulfill not only the letter but also the spirit (i.e. we must be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is perfect), there can no longer be any pretense that we can manufacture the kind of righteousness required.

Did Paul condemn works? No, not at all. But the Judaizers were attempting to convince the Gentile Christians that they did not have salvation without it. This is a falsehood, and so Paul rightly condemned the lie.

 

[shocktrooper]

May I make a suggestion? THIS IS ONLY A SUGGESTION!

Our salvation is a single matter, but a Trinitarian solution. I believe what is required for our salvation takes it’s root directly in the Holy Trinity.

GRACE- God the Father- the One in which all grace flows from to us, the source, so that we can be infused with that grace so that our “reditus” is possible. God’s grace is the ONE SAVING GIFT.

FAITH- The Son (Jesus) the One that strengthens our faith, as the Apostles asked of Him. Our faith is in Christ, the Rock, and is strengthened by Him so that we may come to know the unseen Truths the Father has given us. Christ is the “only way to the Father”. Our faith in Christ is the ONE WAY (and only way) to receive the ONE SAVING GIFT OF GRACE.

WORKS- The Holy Spirit- the One that is the perfect “out pouring” of love between the Father and the Son. The One that brings together the mystery of God within Himself. God is the perfect Family and is perfectly described as “Love”. This love extends to us and is represented by our works and our “love of neighbor”. Our works, through the divine help of the Holy Spirit, are the SINGLE EXPRESSION AND REFLECTION of God’s love in our lives. Our works keep us in or out of God’s grace. The Holy Spirit moves us to do what is right but It does not force us to do what is right. We do have the free will to ignore and/or suppress the voice of God that swells up from within our hearts.

My suggestion is simply this, by saying that “grace alone” or “faith alone” or “works alone” is the way for salvation, you may be taking away from the great Mystery of the Holy Trinity. All Three are One and have never been apart. Our salvation is conditioned on allowing the Holy Trinity, each person, to act directly in our lives. Each in their own way. If we remove just one of them, we come away with a deformed view of who God is.

The first two (grace and faith) are gifts, but gifts we need to accept and put to work in our lives. Neither one, alone, can bring us home to the Father. And neither can both together bring us home to the Father if our works don’t reflect the love that God has given us. Our works should reflect our love for God and for our neighbor. If our works don’t do this, then our faith is not what we proclaim it to be. Our participation is the key component and our salvation is not forced upon us.

Again, this is simply a suggestion since I have never read or heard it connected in this way, so I apologized if I am incorrect in some way. I would like to read some of your reflections on this and maybe you can expand on them or make corrections. Also, if you know of any writings that may be similar to this, please let me know.

Pax Christi

 

[ServantJohn]

“For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.” (Matthew 6:14-15 DRB)

I have had a hard time with this verse for a long time. Now I believe 100% that salvation is by grace alone. I can reconcile grace alone with this verse because it is by God’s grace that I find the desire and strength to forgive those who have wronged me. I can even reconcile this with faith if that means by faith, I receive the grace to desire and the strength to forgive; or I can even say by grace, I receive the faith which leads me to desire and have the strength to forgive, but I cannot say, by faith I receive the grace to be forgiven if that does not include my forgiving those who have wronged me.

 

[Solus_Christus]

WORKS- The Holy Spirit- the One that is the perfect “out pouring” of love between the Father and the Son. The One that brings together the mystery of God within Himself. God is the perfect Family and is perfectly described as “Love”. This love extends to us and is represented by our works and our “love of neighbor”. Our works, through the divine help of the Holy Spirit, are the SINGLE EXPRESSION AND REFLECTION of God’s love in our lives. Our works keep us in or out of God’s grace. The Holy Spirit moves us to do what is right but It does not force us to do what is right. We do have the free will to ignore and/or suppress the voice of God that swells up from within our hearts.

This suggestion is unbiblical and, in fact, counter to what the Bible clearly declares. If salvation is even 0.01% due to our acts of righteousness, then it is no longer by grace or, as Paul put it in Romans 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

The remainder of your formulation is biblical. Our salvation is because of God’s grace alone working through faith alone, but it’s also because of Christ’s work on the cross alone. Alone because it is not made “better” or “complete” by any form of righteousness we can offer. I think this biblical doctrine makes Catholics nervous because it sounds awefully close to a license to sin. But, in the words of Paul, God forbid it that we should go on sinning that grace may abound. The true Christian will not use God’s grace as a license to sin. The true Christian will abound in good works and bear much fruit. It is not because of that fruit, however, that we are saved. If we are saved by works, then it is by the work of Christ on the cross.

Along these same lines, you talk about our works keeping us out of God’s grace. Consider, however, that God first gave His grace to us before we ever looked for it. It is wrong to believe that having now received the grace that comes through His Son, He would now turn around and yank it back. This is exactly what Paul tells us in Romans 5:8,9 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”

The very definition of grace tell us that the idea of God revoking His grace due to our inadequacies and failures is nonsensical. Grace, by definition, is something that is not deserved. We never deserve it when He gave it to us in the first place!

 

[JonNC]

May I make a suggestion? THIS IS ONLY A SUGGESTION!

Our salvation is a single matter, but a Trinitarian solution. I believe what is required for our salvation takes it’s root directly in the Holy Trinity.

GRACE- God the Father- the One in which all grace flows from to us, the source, so that we can be infused with that grace so that our “reditus” is possible. God’s grace is the ONE SAVING GIFT.

FAITH- The Son (Jesus) the One that strengthens our faith, as the Apostles asked of Him. Our faith is in Christ, the Rock, and is strengthened by Him so that we may come to know the unseen Truths the Father has given us. Christ is the “only way to the Father”. Our faith in Christ is the ONE WAY (and only way) to receive the ONE SAVING GIFT OF GRACE.

WORKS- The Holy Spirit- the One that is the perfect “out pouring” of love between the Father and the Son. The One that brings together the mystery of God within Himself. God is the perfect Family and is perfectly described as “Love”. This love extends to us and is represented by our works and our “love of neighbor”. Our works, through the divine help of the Holy Spirit, are the SINGLE EXPRESSION AND REFLECTION of God’s love in our lives. Our works keep us in or out of God’s grace. The Holy Spirit moves us to do what is right but It does not force us to do what is right. We do have the free will to ignore and/or suppress the voice of God that swells up from within our hearts.

My suggestion is simply this, by saying that “grace alone” or “faith alone” or “works alone” is the way for salvation, you may be taking away from the great Mystery of the Holy Trinity. All Three are One and have never been apart. Our salvation is conditioned on allowing the Holy Trinity, each person, to act directly in our lives. Each in their own way. If we remove just one of them, we come away with a deformed view of who God is.

The first two (grace and faith) are gifts, but gifts we need to accept and put to work in our lives. Neither one, alone, can bring us home to the Father. And neither can both together bring us home to the Father if our works don’t reflect the love that God has given us. Our works should reflect our love for God and for our neighbor. If our works don’t do this, then our faith is not what we proclaim it to be. Our participation is the key component and our salvation is not forced upon us.

Again, this is simply a suggestion since I have never read or heard it connected in this way, so I apologized if I am incorrect in some way. I would like to read some of your reflections on this and maybe you can expand on them or make corrections. Also, if you know of any writings that may be similar to this, please let me know.

Pax Christi

I find this, on first glance, to be a quite reasonable statement. I was particularly intrigued and moved by your comments about the Holy Spirit, “This love extends to us and is represented by our works and our “love of neighbor”. Our works, through the divine help of the Holy Spirit, are the SINGLE EXPRESSION AND REFLECTION of God’s love in our lives.” Your words seem to present an acknowledgement that our good works, as the regenerate, are in fact His good works, and our cooperation is a necessity, a cooperation that He assists us in doing by the strengthening of the means of grace.

Am I reading you right?
Jon

 

[pablope]

This suggestion is unbiblical and, in fact, counter to what the Bible clearly declares. If salvation is even 0.01% due to our acts of righteousness, then it is no longer by grace or, as Paul put it in Romans 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

Grace, by definition, is something that is not deserved. We never deserve it when He gave it to us in the first place!

What is unbiblical about “works”? Maybe it is your misunderstanding of how “works” help us in our journey to fullness of faith and love.

The very definition of grace tell us that the idea of God revoking His grace due to our inadequacies and failures is nonsensical.

I will only quote a portion but please loook up the whole chapter…consider Romans 11:

Romans 11:19-24 (The Message)

19-20It’s certainly possible to say, “Other branches were pruned so that I could be grafted in!” Well and good. But they were pruned because they were deadwood, no longer connected by belief and commitment to the root. The only reason you’re on the tree is because your graft “took” when you believed, and because you’re connected to that belief-nurturing root. So don’t get cocky and strut your branch. Be humbly mindful of the root that keeps you lithe and green.

21-22If God didn’t think twice about taking pruning shears to the natural branches, why would he hesitate over you? He wouldn’t give it a second thought. Make sure you stay alert to these qualities of gentle kindness and ruthless severity that exist side by side in God—ruthless with the deadwood, gentle with the grafted shoot. But don’t presume on this gentleness. The moment you become deadwood, you’re out of there.

23-24And don’t get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don’t persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts. Why, if he could graft you—branches cut from a tree out in the wild—into an orchard tree, he certainly isn’t going to have any trouble grafting branches back into the tree they grew from in the first place. Just be glad you’re in the tree, and hope for the best for the others.

Or Hebrews 10:

Hebrews 10:22-39 (The Message)

22-25So let’s do it—full of belief, confident that we’re presentable inside and out. Let’s keep a firm grip on the promises that keep us going. He always keeps his word. Let’s see how inventive we can be in encouraging love and helping out, not avoiding worshiping together as some do but spurring each other on, especially as we see the big Day approaching.

26-31If we give up and turn our backs on all we’ve learned, all we’ve been given, all the truth we now know, we repudiate Christ’s sacrifice and are left on our own to face the Judgment—and a mighty fierce judgment it will be! If the penalty for breaking the law of Moses is physical death, what do you think will happen if you turn on God’s Son, spit on the sacrifice that made you whole, and insult this most gracious Spirit? This is no light matter. God has warned us that he’ll hold us to account and make us pay. He was quite explicit: “Vengeance is mine, and I won’t overlook a thing” and “God will judge his people.” Nobody’s getting by with anything, believe me.

32-39Remember those early days after you first saw the light? Those were the hard times! Kicked around in public, targets of every kind of abuse—some days it was you, other days your friends. If some friends went to prison, you stuck by them. If some enemies broke in and seized your goods, you let them go with a smile, knowing they couldn’t touch your real treasure. Nothing they did bothered you, nothing set you back. So don’t throw it all away now. You were sure of yourselves then. It’s still a sure thing! But you need to stick it out, staying with God’s plan so you’ll be there for the promised completion.

 

[Solus_Christus]

What is unbiblical about “works”? Maybe it is your misunderstanding of how “works” help us in our journey to fullness of faith and love.

The idea that we can trust in our works is what is unbiblical. It does not matter how you define the word, if the work in view is not that of Christ, then it is powerless to save. I will grant that faith without works is dead, but it is not the works which save us.

I will only quote a portion but please loook up the whole chapter

We are left with two options it would seem. We can either 1) come up with a new definition for grace or 2) understand these passages as pertaining to those who are not truly saved. We are told of such people who gather together with Christians but who are not themselves Christians in places like 1 John 2:19 (“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.”) and the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Considered in conjunction with passages where Christ is described as the perfecter or finisher of our faith, I lean heavily toward the second option.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Paul’s point was NOT that works of the Law (ceremonial, moral, or otherwise) should be condemned. His point was that trusting in those works for our salvation should be condemned. The Jews were zealous to fulfill the letter of the Law because they thought they would thereby attain righteousness. What they failed to understand, however, is that they needed to fulfill not only the letter, but also the spirit of the Law (think of Christ’s discourse: “You have heard it said…but I tell you” Matthew 5:21-48). Once it is clear we must fulfill not only the letter but also the spirit (i.e. we must be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is perfect), there can no longer be any pretense that we can manufacture the kind of righteousness required.

Did Paul condemn works? No, not at all. But the Judaizers were attempting to convince the Gentile Christians that they did not have salvation without it. This is a falsehood, and so Paul rightly condemned the lie.

Let me rephrase the question: where does Paul teach “faith alone”?

 

[shocktrooper]

This suggestion is unbiblical and, in fact, counter to what the Bible clearly declares. If salvation is even 0.01% due to our acts of righteousness, then it is no longer by grace or, as Paul put it in Romans 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

Solus Christus, I am not sure if you noticed that I am Catholic. This means that I believe in the WORD of GOD, both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. This is the reason for some of my writings to not be, at least, explicitly in the bible. Also, you must have not read carefully what I wrote. I did not say that our salvation is “due to our acts of righteousness”, as if any man can merit his own salvation. I said that our works reflect the love of God and is a testimony to our faith.

St. James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

They work together, you can’t have one without the other.

The remainder of your formulation is biblical. Our salvation is because of God’s grace alone working through faith alone, but it’s also because of Christ’s work on the cross alone. Alone because it is not made “better” or “complete” by any form of righteousness we can offer. I think this biblical doctrine makes Catholics nervous because it sounds awefully close to a license to sin. But, in the words of Paul, God forbid it that we should go on sinning that grace may abound. The true Christian will not use God’s grace as a license to sin. The true Christian will abound in good works and bear much fruit. It is not because of that fruit, however, that we are saved. If we are saved by works, then it is by the work of Christ on the cross.

Speaking of biblical vs. non-biblical… Where do you get all those ALONEs from? I agree with “Christ alone” but I am not so sure about the other two.

Along these same lines, you talk about our works keeping us out of God’s grace. Consider, however, that God first gave His grace to us before we ever looked for it. It is wrong to believe that having now received the grace that comes through His Son, He would now turn around and yank it back. This is exactly what Paul tells us in Romans 5:8,9 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”

Do you understand that it takes two to make a covenant? God is always faithful to His part and you are correct to say that He will never “yank it back”. This does not mean, though, that we can never be unfaithful to our part of the covenant. Remember, a covenant is a gift of self. You choose each day whether you are going to give yourself back to God or to something or someone else. We do have a part in this. Are you saying that God predestines some people to Heaven and some to Hell and we have no say so in the matter?

The very definition of grace tell us that the idea of God revoking His grace due to our inadequacies and failures is nonsensical. Grace, by definition, is something that is not deserved. We never deserve it when He gave it to us in the first place!

The reason God gives us grace is because of our inadequacies and failures (Original Sin). You are right, we don’t merit it. It is a gift, but a gift we have to receive and act on. Do you believe that a person baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit can never fall from grace and is destined to be with God in Heaven no matter what that person does in his or her life? If you say no, then we don’t disagree on much here. If you say yes, then we are far from agreement.

Pax Christi

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is a curious thing how important this sacrament of confession is, but is nowhere mentioned in the New Testament in the sense it is used by Catholics. If this sacrament of confession to an earthly priest is a necessity, then it seems like it would be an integral part of the gospel clearly proclaimed by the apostles. No?

Sure, and I find it plainly enough.

Confession and Forgiveness of Sin via the Priesthood Proved from Scripture

Some people object to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (commonly called “Confession”) on the basis that they only need to confess their sins directly to God rather than to a priest. Is this perspective correct? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Leviticus 5:5-6
5 " 'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned 6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

Notice that the Word of God says, “the priest shall make atonement.” Clearly in the Old Testament, the priesthood existed to offer sacrifices and make atonement for the sins committed by the people. Does this idea continue in the New Testament?

Hebrews 10:1
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

Here the author of Hebrews instructs us that the Old Testament prefigures and foreshadows New Testament truths; the Old is revealed more fully in the New. This seems to suggest that the role of the priest (ie, making atonement) as described in Leviticus should reveal something to us about the New Testament priesthood. So, what does the New Testament teach us about confession of sin?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We should confess our sins, and God will forgive us, but do we confess our sins to God alone? No!

James 5:13-16
13 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Here the word of God tells us to call the elders (the Greek word is presbuteroi, or “presbyter”, from which the English word “priest” is derived). So, in this context, James is telling us to send for the priests who will pray over someone who is sick, and if he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Recalling the passage from Leviticus above, we see there is a strong parallel between the priests of the Old Testament who made atonement for sin and the presbyters or priests of the New Testament to whom we confess sins for forgiveness. But this sounds like blasphemy! Can men really forgive sins? This same question is asked in the New Testament.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Who can forgive sins but God alone? This question is often asked by those who seek to deny the sacrament of confession. However, note that this question is asked by the scribes who did not accept Jesus. Those who quote this passage find themselves on the side of those who rejected the Messiah. There’s more to the story, however; let’s consider the same incident from the book of Matthew.

Matthew 9:1-7
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” 4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

The Bible teaches that God had given the authority to forgive sins “to men”. Note that this is not “to a man” but “to men” – plural. So, it is not only Jesus who has authority to forgive sins – “men” have this authority, also. This sounds like a “hard teaching”…is there confirmation of this in the Bible?

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

John 20:21-23
21 Again Jesus said,"Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

How did God send Jesus into the world? With the authority to forgive sins as we saw in Matthew 9:6. How does Jesus send the Apostles? In the same way that the Father had sent Him…with the authority to forgive sins as we have just seen in John 20:23. How could the Apostles obey the commandment of Jesus to forgive sins unless they heard these sins confessed? Thus, scripture records that people did confess their sins aloud.

Acts 19:18 (New International Version)
18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Finally, we find that the Apostle Paul himself forgave the sins of others acting in persona Christi or “in the person of Christ” – just as the Catholic Church teaches concerning the sacrament of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)

Can we go directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins? Of course, but the scriptures just presented suggest that the normative means of forgiveness is by confession to a priest, and while it is true that only God can forgive sins, the Bible teaches that He has chosen to do so through the ordained priesthood and the Sacrament of Reconciliation that He Himself instituted.

 

[shocktrooper]

I find this, on first glance, to be a quite reasonable statement. I was particularly intrigued and moved by your comments about the Holy Spirit, “This love extends to us and is represented by our works and our “love of neighbor”. Our works, through the divine help of the Holy Spirit, are the SINGLE EXPRESSION AND REFLECTION of God’s love in our lives.” Your words seem to present an acknowledgement that our good works, as the regenerate, are in fact His good works, and our cooperation is a necessity, a cooperation that He assists us in doing by the strengthening of the means of grace.

Am I reading you right?
Jon

Jon, I do suggest that our good works are in fact, Christ working through us. This is what we are called to do. We are supposed to reflect Christ in our lives. The best way to do this is to put our trust in Him, build our faith on Him, and let Him, through the divine power of transformation work in our lives. Our will must submit to His will, but we have to play according to His rules.

Just as a priest acts in Persona Christi while administering the Sacraments, we too are called, in a lesser way, to be a witness for Christ to each other. We must be a sacrament, a visible sign that points to an invisible reality (Jesus- at least for now, for us). When we receive the Eucharist, we receive the glorious risen body of Christ. When we receive Him in this Sacrament, we receive a grace that is unspeakable, but it has to be received with the eyes of faith. Our part is receiving the grace, receiving and trusting in the faith that God gifts us. We must, as you and I agree, put that faith to work in our lives. If we don’t, we will be treated like the goats we are. But faith is more than just believing in Christ. It is submitting to His authority and to His Church. Even the demons know and believe in Christ. Starting your own church, while discarding a teaching of the true Church, is not really the fullness of faith that we are called to. If we only adhere to those teachings that tickle our earthly ears, then we are submitting to nothing. Satan chose not to serve. Serving is all about humility, and humility is all about putting others before us. We must choose to serve God, by serving others, and by accepting his gifts of grace and faith in the virtue of humility, an acknowledgement that we are nothing without God and need Him and His power to journey Home.

It all starts with the question of authority. No Protestant can come to believe in any Catholic doctrine that conflicts with their own until the authority issue is dealt with. I know this from personal experience. It boils down to believing one of the following, 1- Christ failed to usher in the new Kingdom, or 2- He was faithful to His promise and gave us His Kingdom in the Church. Now, if you come down on the side of option 2, then you have to submit to His authority which now lies in His Church.

Today’s Gospel reading is exactly what this is about. Mt 25:31-46. Anyone that reads this Gospel and walks away saying our actions or “works” are meaningless are sadly mistaken.

Pax Christi

 

[mackbrislawn]

There aren’t too many things more muddling than a sola fide discussion.

But, after all is said, it seems to boil down to: works do not save us, nevertheless, works are necessary for salvation.

 

[pablope]

The idea that we can trust in our works is what is unbiblical. It does not matter how you define the word, if the work in view is not that of Christ, then it is powerless to save. I will grant that faith without works is dead, but it is not the works which save us.

We are left with two options it would seem. We can either 1) come up with a new definition for grace or 2) understand these passages as pertaining to those who are not truly saved. We are told of such people who gather together with Christians but who are not themselves Christians in places like 1 John 2:19 (“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.”) and the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Considered in conjunction with passages where Christ is described as the perfecter or finisher of our faith, I lean heavily toward the second option.

I think there is no need to come up with a definition of Grace. The CC has adequately defined it.

As for the passages pertaining to those only saved, why would you think that? This is like picking and choosing a passage of the Bible you like and throwing out the rest. Where is it ever written that certain parts of the Bible apply to some and not to everybody?

Look at Romans 11 again and pay particular attention to V 21:
[SIGN]
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/SIGN]

God will not spare the natural branches, meaning those saved. This clearly states no one will be spared from being cut off, including those who call themselves the “saved” ones.

[SIGN]V22 : Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but **kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
**
[/SIGN]

Heb 10:26 pretty much echoes Romans 11:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Those “have received the knowledge of the truth” refers to the “saved”, and they will be judged accordingly if one keeps on sinning.

And V 29 says the judgement for the “saved” will be more severe:

[SIGN]29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant** that sanctified them**, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
[/SIGN]

V 36 sums up what is needed:
[SIGN]
36 **You need to persevere **so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.[/SIGN]