A simple question

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Well, my last thread ended with a rather pointless debate of whether Gerald Joyce is a scientist or not, but I simply intended to point out a trend regarding the efficacy of converting atheists (as opposed to the converting other branches of Christianity) to Catholicism.

My question concerns the veracity of Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism. I am wondering why do people sincerely adhere to those belief systems. More importantly, why should I believe? How could I be sure that I am not believing in a delusion (such as young-Earth creationism and geocentrism, which people also sincerely believe)? What makes Chrisitianity itself a credible belief system?

Finally, I must add that I will never suspend my sense of skepticism. Professor Gerald Joyce encouraged me to retain my sense of skepticism (both from his literature and an e-mail correspondence). I do feel that I have to apply skepticism to everything, and not simply restrict it to scientific hypotheses.

Best wishes to you all!
 
Wow, for the title, that is NOT a simple question. You are asking for no less than an answer to “how should I view the world”

Well, the reason I believe in Christianity and Catholicism is because to me it makes sense. For example, everything we have comes from something else, it doesn’t just appear. But at some point, this had to happen, something had to appear. No matter how high of a number you are at, by subtracting you eventually get to zero.

Another reason it makes sense to me, is because we have laws in nature, and if we have laws, we must have a law maker. If things just happened by chance, why would there be so few real laws in nature?

As far as Christianity goes, I believe that God is a loving God, and the rest fills in itself.

As to why you should believe that God is a loving God, or that God is the God of the christians, I will have to think on that and get back to you.

A lone Raven
 
Well, my last thread ended with a rather pointless debate of whether Gerald Joyce is a scientist or not, but I simply intended to point out a trend regarding the efficacy of converting atheists (as opposed to the converting other branches of Christianity) to Catholicism.

My question concerns the veracity of Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism. I am wondering why do people sincerely adhere to those belief systems. More importantly, why should I believe? How could I be sure that I am not believing in a delusion (such as young-Earth creationism and geocentrism, which people also sincerely believe)? What makes Chrisitianity itself a credible belief system?

Finally, I must add that I will never suspend my sense of skepticism. Professor Gerald Joyce encouraged me to retain my sense of skepticism (both from his literature and an e-mail correspondence). I do feel that I have to apply skepticism to everything, and not simply restrict it to scientific hypotheses.

Best wishes to you all!
It looks like you are really asking for a “proof” of the existence of God, as an explanation of Christianity would be unintelligible without first establishing that God exists. From your last post on this subject, I take it that you are looking for a new way to explain God’s existence to agnostics. Then again, maybe not since I believe you also mentioned deists in that post. Please clarify your position on God’s existence. Thanks.
 
It sounds like you’ve reached a conundrum, here.

Jesus tells us we should be child-like in our faith. He tells Thomas, “Blessed are those who haven’t seen and yet believe”.

And yet you insist on clinging to your skepticism.

I’m not sure how easy it’s going to be for you, for it seems you’re going to have to shed your self-defense mechanism (skepticism) in order to blindly trust in God.
 
It looks like you are really asking for a “proof” of the existence of God, as an explanation of Christianity would be unintelligible without first establishing that God exists. From your last post on this subject, I take it that you are looking for a new way to explain God’s existence to agnostics. Then again, maybe not since I believe you also mentioned deists in that post. Please clarify your position on God’s existence. Thanks.
Ok, fine, let’s assume that God does exist, but I am really an agnostic…

With that postulate assumed to be valid, why should the belief in a *loving * God considered to be somewhat reasonable, as opposed to a delusion or the mere product of human minds. If I do have faith in the Christian God, how could I be sure that it is not a delusion? I am asking this question because people have the innate ability to believe in delusions; the human mind is adept at fooling itself. As I mentioned before, many people believe in young-Earth creationism despite the evidence to the contrary.
 
Yes, the human mind is adept at fooling itself. The modern age is also one of the most credulous ages in the history of human thought.

So you are right to retain a sense of skepticism. Agnosticism is probably more intellectually comfortable than outright atheism, which has in itself certain dogmatic characteristics which make it akin to a religious belief.

In examining your own beliefs, you have to decide whether you are a strict materialist. If you are a materialist, believing that there IS nothing but matter (or matter-energy, or matter-energy-space-time, --all species of the material) then it seems to me that you must also be a determinist. Because all matter follows physical laws, whatever its complexity.

And if you are a determinist, the question becomes moot, because according to your determinism, you would then have no power of your own to decide your beliefs. These would be determined by physics, biochemistry, genetics, or a combination thereof.

If you are at least agnostic with respect to materialism, then you would be at least open to the possibility of some reality other than the material. This is a pretty much a pre-requisite for theism, since a material God is a contradiction in many ways.

For starters, I would recommend that in your downtime from studying science, you might want to read something like Mortimer Adler’s How to Think About God, or Ten Philosophical Mistakes. Or Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners or Theology and Sanity.
 
Ribozyme,

For starters, the death and resurrection of Jesus are the best-established events in ancient history. Jesus’ burial shroud, with an image of a crucified man burned into the fibers, is housed in a cathedral in Turin, Italy.

For a continuation, one of the best arguments for the correctness of the Catholic Church is that for anything in that much trouble to have lasted that long is nothing short of a miracle.

For a better explanation of what makes Christianity a credible belief system, I would point you towards C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity.

Skepticism is a good thing; doubting Thomas is my favorite apostle. It is noteworthy that the most direct statement of faith (“My Lord and my God!”) comes from his lips. Skeptical does not equal dismissive.
  • Liberian
 
Ok, fine, let’s assume that God does exist, but I am really an agnostic…

With that postulate assumed to be valid, why should the belief in a *loving * God considered to be somewhat reasonable, as opposed to a delusion or the mere product of human minds. If I do have faith in the Christian God, how could I be sure that it is not a delusion? I am asking this question because people have the innate ability to believe in delusions; the human mind is adept at fooling itself. As I mentioned before, many people believe in young-Earth creationism despite the evidence to the contrary.
There are very good reasons to believe that God is a loving God, as opposed to that belief being the product of one who is in a delusional state. I can’t give them to you yet though. As an agnostic, your claim will be that you neither accept nor deny the existence of God. What that tells me is that you do not believe that God exists. You might believe that it is possible for him to exist, but that’s about the extent of it. It is not enough to grant me that God exists, because without an understanding of why it is necessary for God to exist, I can’t answer your questions in a meaningful way.

Maybe we should start out this way: what are your objections if any to to the notion that God exists? Maybe “objections” is too strong of a word. I would like to know why you are skeptical and have doubts about God’s existence. I really am trying to answer your original question, but it is going to take a few steps before I can get there. By the way, I do not expect you to blindly believe in the teachings of Christianity. If what you mean by skepticism is that you need logical reasons for believing what is presented to you, then I agree.
 
No offense to anyone here, but I don’t believe that Mortimer Adler (at least Ten Philosophical Mistakes) will be nearly as helpful to you as Rizzi’s book that I mentioned in the last thread.

Some very good thoughts about determinism presented by JimG though. Meant to mention that. Now I’ve got to edit. 🙂
 
Finally, I must add that I will never suspend my sense of skepticism. Professor Gerald Joyce encouraged me to retain my sense of skepticism (both from his literature and an e-mail correspondence). I do feel that I have to apply skepticism to everything, and not simply restrict it to scientific hypotheses.
I reordered what you said because of how I want to answer. First, I will never give up on my critical thinking and objectivism. I will never be cynical, however. And Skepticism is problematic. You see, skeptics take to doubt first. That is exceedingly unscientific. I stick to critical analysis because it allows me to be able to look into a subject with out making up my mind first.

Additionally, the book “The Dancing Wu Li Masters” (Gary Zukav) really helped me with my Atheism/Theism problem, it demonstrated to me just how wonderfully ordered the universe is. I went on to read many C.S. Lewis works “Mere Christianity”, “The Problem of Pain” and others to really solidify me into Christianity and then simply the Bible drove me home to Catholicism about 3 years ago.

Additionally, Stephen Hawking helped because he portrays the universe in such a beautiful way, similar to Gary Zukav, that it began to strike me that I could use the scientific method to approach philosophy as well as Theism.

And finally, for this first section, a book which is merely an introduction to philosophy ( “Philosophy” by Thomas D. Davis ) presents some extremely thought provoking theories and ideas in short fiction story form that are wonderful. One of my favorites is: “Surprise! It’s Judgment Day”. It is a 6 page discussion between Professor Martin, an Atheist, and God just after Prof Martin dies.

Some of these books are far from Christian, or Biblically founded for that matter, but they provided, for me, the foundations of theism which lead me to Catholicism.
My question concerns the veracity of Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism. I am wondering why do people sincerely adhere to those belief systems. More importantly, why should I believe? How could I be sure that I am not believing in a delusion (such as young-Earth creationism and geocentrism, which people also sincerely believe)? What makes Chrisitianity itself a credible belief system?
One constant is that you cannot look at how fervently a person believes their belief-structure in order to see if that belief structure is sound or not. You have to critically judge it for yourself. Honestly, the questions you asked cannot be answered in one post online, for I asked myself these questions and it took me almost 3 years to come to a theism stand point, another year to come to Christian, then about another year of reading the bible to come to Catholicism.

The best thing I can say to you is start very broad, as you have. You say you are Agnostic. That means you believe that in this universe there is some sort of being which is more powerful than humans. Ask yourself logically, if all of creation has some purpose, flowers provide food for bees, trees provide nesting places and oxygen, water provides essentials for the ADP/ATP process as well as carving out earth and creating new life to perpetuate life on this planet, then what is the purpose for this supreme being? Either this being is worthless and lazy, and in this case you ought to be an atheist, or he has some purpose and he does “something” what that something is, you do not know.

Continue the line of reasoning. If this being exists and has a purpose of its own, what is that purpose? And would we be able to observe it carrying out this purpose?

An equally important question, “Why is it that human’s have this propensity to believe in something more powerful” you said that we have a propensity to fool ourselves. You are confusing two separate factions of the human psyche. The first part is the part of our minds which help us survive, if we walk in a dark room we imagine spiders on our legs when we brush against something soft (for me with a lot of leg hair and mild arachnophobia, this occurs often). This is the natural process of “fooling ourselves”. Which you spoke of, there is, however, another natural process of “belief”. This is spoken about in the book “Why God Won’t Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief” by Andrew Newberg. I have not read all the way through this book yet (it’s sort of big) but I have been interested in how the anti-theists feel about the human propensity (that God placed in us, in my belief) to believe in God. This book is defiantly my next read as I think it will give me new insights how to argue against anti-theists.

I think that this propensity to believe in God is very important and is much more than just a “Propensity to fool oneself.”
 
Ok, fine, let’s assume that God does exist, but I am really an agnostic…

With that postulate assumed to be valid, why should the belief in a loving God considered to be somewhat reasonable, as opposed to a delusion or the mere product of human minds.
This is nearly verbatim of what my objection to all of Religion was years back. And what got me through it was a forum much like this one. A guy told me on there that just because one can psychologically display that humans can believe in something superior, there must be some sufficient cause for them to believe in such things. Now this is not scientific reasoning what-so-ever, but God cannot be scientifically proven. If you are not willing to have any belief and stick to purely scientific facts then you are going to have some problems. (I know that this is ad hominem) A man feels hunger, he can satiate that with food, a man feels angry about an unjust act, he can satiate that by bringing about justice, a man feels he ought to believe in God, belief in Jesus Christ can satiate that.

There ought to be sufficient cause (Leibniz) for these types of things. If I have a feeling that there is a spider on my leg even though I have no proof that there actually is one and I have never had a spider on my leg before, why do I feel that there is a spider on my leg when I brush passed my bedding in my dark bedroom?

If I have never been to Hong Kong, why do I believe it exists?

I believe there is a God and he begot a son who died for my sins because of the experiences of people who lived during that time wrote doctrine which is counter to doctrine which would be expected from a conspiracy and counter to doctrine which would be expected from people interested in power and this doctrine is not presented in a fashion which is typical of novels at the time so this character is not a fiction, there are gentile historians who corroborate the stories and the people who passed on the traditions of Jesus did not receive glory, fame, power nor money, rather, were spit on ridiculed martyred, disemboweled and fed to lions for sport yet their contemporaries continued on. Why did they do it? Because they believe they saw a man travel around rejecting fame and power, willfully living a life of piety and humility, calling himself God, saying that he knows he will suffer and die for all of humanity, yet never hesitated to go through with it. Then they saw him die in possibly the most horrific and painful manner possible, yet stay forgiving, loving and caring till he died, and then rose as he said he would 3 days later.

That, to me, is rather moving. One of the other things which helped me understand Catholicism as “the way to go” was reading about the early Church. Read the New Testament then read about Bishop Irenaeus who lived around 130-200. He has been an inspiration to me yet he is just the tip of the iceburg. If you read about the beginnings of the Catholic Church then read about the beginings of other faiths you will see very powerful and very certain differences. You need not read about them from Christians either (if you feel they will be one-sided). Read Elain Pagels and you will see the early Christians from the perspective of Gnostics and again if you apply logic, you will see the dichotomy and how the Catholic Church stands alone.
If I do have faith in the Christian God, how could I be sure that it is not a delusion? I am asking this question because people have the innate ability to believe in delusions; the human mind is adept at fooling itself. As I mentioned before, many people believe in young-Earth creationism despite the evidence to the contrary.
The problem with beliefs such as geocentricism is that they dilute facts with beliefs and are rarely (if ever) critical. I use 5 steps when evaluating a belief structure.
  1. Does it proclaim a self-prophetic message? That is, will the events happen the way they were prophesied no matter what? If I believe I will lose my job, and give prophesy to that end and I have been slacking off at work, I did not tell the future, rather I created the future through my choices. (Tom Smykowski from “Office Space”)
  2. Does it proclaim a self-serving message? (polygamy)
  3. Does it proclaim a message which is in the best interest or against the best interest of society? (polygamy)
  4. Is the originator of the belief self-serving? (polygamy)
  5. Is the belief structure created well after the originator as died? (Muhammadism)
 
My post was too long : / so I had to split it in two… Please read it all though!
 
It is not enough to grant me that God exists, because without an understanding of why it is necessary for God to exist, I can’t answer your questions in a meaningful way.

Maybe we should start out this way: what are your objections if any to to the notion that God exists? Maybe “objections” is too strong of a word. I would like to know why you are skeptical and have doubts about God’s existence. I really am trying to answer your original question, but it is going to take a few steps before I can get there. By the way, I do not expect you to blindly believe in the teachings of Christianity. If what you mean by skepticism is that you need logical reasons for believing what is presented to you, then I agree.
I am extremly skeptical of a God that interacts with the universe and with humans.

My primary objection rests on some varient of the problem of evil argument. It is not the fact that evil itself exists; evil does not exist (to me anyone as an abstract concept) and it can only exist when one subjectively experience suffering. It is based on the fact that random destruction (and human inflicted destruction) afflicts the human race? What is the counterforce for this destruction? Is it God or human ingenuity that acts as the counterforce? In the Holocaust, it seemed that God did not intervene, but it was the efforts of the Allies that fortunately stopped it. Also, it seems to me that God is not active in nature; Darwinian evolution acts as a counterforce as it is capable of generating order through a stochastic process of reproduction, mutation, and selection.

Also see here for more about the counterforce:

I also do not see anything inherently special about life itself. I see it simply as a self-sustaining system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution. I do not see it as the creation on God.

Jim: I am perplexed about the nature of consciouness. How could the action of molecules generate the sense of self-awareness?

I am also perplexed about the origin of life… I read about this topic in peer-reviewed journals, but I have little idea about how it started despite reading hundreds of pages of literature. I have some doubts about the viability of Robert Shapiro’s proposal in “Small molecule interactions were central to the origin of life.”

Well, thank you all for your thoughtful comments 👍 !
 
**Why believe in Catholicism as opposed to atheism?
** Pascal’s wager.
-Objection: Yeah, but that only applies to the Catholic concept of God
-Reply: Yup, it sure does. Since that’s the question asked, that’s the right response.

Why believe in the Catholic/Christian concept of God as opposed to any other?
A sound historical analysis of the Resurection, amongst other arguments.

Why believe in Catholicism over some other flavor of Christianity?
A sound historical analysis of the Church as well as sound hermeneutics.

Why believe in a God at all?
The Kalam argument, amongst others.

What about the “problem of evil” disproving the existance of God?
If “evil” exists, there is objective morality. If there’s objective morality, we’re not the source of it. If we’re not the source of objective moral laws, the most logical alternate source of objective moral laws is God. If there are no objective moral laws, “evil” is no longer a problem (as it doesn’t exist). Therefore, this argument is self defeating.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
…Darwinian evolution acts as a counterforce as it is capable of generating order through a stochastic process of reproduction, mutation, and selection.
Survival of the fittest presupposes the arrival of the fit.
I am also perplexed about the origin of life…
So is science. This is the problem of abiogenesis. So far, it remains unanswered.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Jim: I am perplexed about the nature of consciouness. How could the action of molecules generate the sense of self-awareness?
Well, this is precisely the problem for materialism. There is no doubt that the sensory system and the brain are needed to process physical (name removed by moderator)ut from the outside world. But do those biological systems actually generate consciousness, or ideas, or volitions, as a matter of material necessity? And if one is engaged in some serious abstract thought involving no images whatsoever, are those thoughts material entities or immaterial entities?

This is more of a philosophical problem than a scientific problem.

Not only that, but the only consciousness which we can actually study is our own. The only “I” which we are able to study is our own. Such study is by nature introspective, abstract, and subjective, (since the person studying it is the subject who is experiencing it.)

This is not to say that it can’t be studied, since philosophy extrapolates from personal experience to general principles.
 
One major thing I try to keep in my mind is that God stopped his direct influence (that is actions like the flood of Noah) a long long time ago. To me, Jesus was his last direct action on earth, since then He has left it up to us with only the influence of Jesus resounding throughout the world. I flinch whenever someone survives cancer and people say that God cured the cancer. What if that person died from cancer? Would it be God willing that? of course not. It is not a matter of God directly interacting with us, that would preclude free will.

God gave us the ultimate example (Jesus) and gave us a clockwork universe that relies on His laws and construction (evolution is one of those laws).
 
It may not be a simple question, but here is the simple answer:

Faith must be given by God. Ask for it, God will grant it.
 
One major thing I try to keep in my mind is that God stopped his direct influence (that is actions like the flood of Noah) a long long time ago. To me, Jesus was his last direct action on earth, since then He has left it up to us with only the influence of Jesus resounding throughout the world. I flinch whenever someone survives cancer and people say that God cured the cancer. What if that person died from cancer? Would it be God willing that? of course not. It is not a matter of God directly interacting with us, that would preclude free will.

God gave us the ultimate example (Jesus) and gave us a clockwork universe that relies on His laws and construction (evolution is one of those laws).
Hmm… So what about all those alleged miracles at Lourdes? Are those God’s direct actions, or it is the intercession of the Saints? Well, what is the difference anyway between an intercession of a Saint and God’s direct action.

Also, the story of Noah, I think that at best it was supposed to be a didactic story.

I’ll deal with the notion of evil later. To me as a secular humanist, evil does not objectively exist. I define evil as suffering that a conscious being experiences; thus, evil is only a subjective perception. But if this is evil, why does such suffering exists?
 
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