A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic

[Bluegoat]

It was more in response to this part of the previous answer & esp. in light of what could be a similar problem for yourself & others at this time.

There would also be the practical problem of how to remain part of the institution without being somehow involved in the abusive behavior.

You are even more aware of the divisiveness, animus & angst within your current institution. Just thought I’d invite you to come try us out, like many others have.
I will pray for you & the Anglican Church that it may somehow come to its senses since a house divided can not stand. Good Luck to You!

Yes, it is a problem for many Anglicans. I am lucky in that I have a church within driving distance that I feel I can attend, but it isn’t my local church, which rather bothers me. They are nice people at the local Church, but not Anglicans, really. I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t - possibly attend the local Catholic Church, and try to manage through the music and liturgy. But I’m not sure if I could see myself becoming Catholic, or Orthodox for that matter.

Right now I think it is hard to see how Anglicanism will go - here in North America it is bad, but that isn’t really representative of how it is worldwide. So I try to keep that in mind. Apostasy has attacked the church and looked like it might win before. But it can be very hard to balance that abstract with the day to day realities of being part of a Christian community for myself and my family.

 

[pickguard1]

If fact I hate to say it but a fair amount of the converts know our faith better than those of us raise Catholics. Growing up during the 70 and 80s did not seem to be a good time to learn our faith very well. Thought I knew a fair amount but still learning alot more here and watching EWTN.

Too true, too often (this is not to say that our convert bretheren’s seemingly deeper knowledge is not a most beautiful and wonderful thing, praise be to God). I had a Catholic school education for eight years (grammar school), and I feel like I’ve learned more about the faith since I met my wife (who was at that time a Baptist) and began going through marriage classes and went with her to her private catechism sessions with the parish priest. In a way that was great, because we both got to experience learning the faith together, which really strengthens us, but I also feel like someone somewhere along the way let me down a bit…I mean, no real “understanding” of the doctrines, just general knowledge of what they were, is a poor summation of 8 years of a supposedly Catholic-focused education.

 

[imkingdad]

Yes, it is a problem for many Anglicans. I am lucky in that I have a church within driving distance that I feel I can attend, but it isn’t my local church, which rather bothers me. They are nice people at the local Church, but not Anglicans, really. I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t - possibly attend the local Catholic Church, and try to manage through the music and liturgy. But I’m not sure if I could see myself becoming Catholic, or Orthodox for that matter.

Right now I think it is hard to see how Anglicanism will go - here in North America it is bad, but that isn’t really representative of how it is worldwide. So I try to keep that in mind. Apostasy has attacked the church and looked like it might win before. But it can be very hard to balance that abstract with the day to day realities of being part of a Christian community for myself and my family.

Good Luck my Brother in Christ, yours is not an enviable task. however please consider reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Make notes on where we agree & where we have issues or questions. 1st I’m sure you’ll note the overwhelming agreement side of the ledger. secondly it will give you pause to Identify those differences between us, from there an examination of Anglican & Catholic development & divergence can begin. Coupled with the various ECFs & outside Historical references we can then try to reconcile some if not all of those differences.

I will Continue to Pray for the Anglican Church, here in the US & around the world, because so many souls are at stake.

God Bless & Good Luck. btw it ain’t that hard to follow along at a Catholic Mass. Try going some Saturday afternoon or Sunday just for informational purposes after 1st having Fulfilled your Anglican Obligations. yours in Christ. vivat Jesus

 

[Bluegoat]

Good Luck my Brother in Christ, yours is not an enviable task. however please consider reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Make notes on where we agree & where we have issues or questions. 1st I’m sure you’ll note the overwhelming agreement side of the ledger. secondly it will give you pause to Identify those differences between us, from there an examination of Anglican & Catholic development & divergence can begin. Coupled with the various ECFs & outside Historical references we can then try to reconcile some if not all of those differences.

I will Continue to Pray for the Anglican Church, here in the US & around the world, because so many souls are at stake.

God Bless & Good Luck. btw it ain’t that hard to follow along at a Catholic Mass. Try going some Saturday afternoon or Sunday just for informational purposes after 1st having Fulfilled your Anglican Obligations. yours in Christ. vivat Jesus

Ah, I am actually fairly well read in Catholic doctrine and history, and have been to lots of Catholic masses - my father’s family is Catholic. I just find the Catholic liturgy in English, and often the music, well, :shrug:less than inspiring. I’d love to go to a Latin Mass at some point, but they are not available regularly around here.

 

[pickguard1]

Ah, I am actually fairly well read in Catholic doctrine and history, and have been to lots of Catholic masses - my father’s family is Catholic. I just find the Catholic liturgy in English, and often the music, well, :shrug:less than inspiring. I’d love to go to a Latin Mass at some point, but they are not available regularly around here.

A problem that hopefully becomes less of a problem, as it seems there is a “revival” if you will, afoot for the Latin Mass…but these things take time, and we all know that “taking time” in the Church can mean “a lot of time.”

 

[Memaw]

Too true, too often (this is not to say that our convert bretheren’s seemingly deeper knowledge is not a most beautiful and wonderful thing, praise be to God). I had a Catholic school education for eight years (grammar school), and I feel like I’ve learned more about the faith since I met my wife (who was at that time a Baptist) and began going through marriage classes and went with her to her private catechism sessions with the parish priest. In a way that was great, because we both got to experience learning the faith together, which really strengthens us, but I also feel like someone somewhere along the way let me down a bit…I mean, no real “understanding” of the doctrines, just general knowledge of what they were, is a poor summation of 8 years of a supposedly Catholic-focused education.

Our Catholic education doesn’t end when school’s out. Its a lifetime process and adventure. Its up to us to continue our learning process when we are adults but I am afraid to many think that is not important. There are soo many wonderful resources out there that makes it easy and interesting. There have already been quite a few put on this thread. God Bless, Memaw

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

I have been a Catholic all my life but I’ve had many non-catholic friends over the years and in my personal opinion they are afraid of what they don’t understand, especially after they have been told by their preachers etc. all those falsehoods about the Catholic Faith. One friend , (for 40 years, and she has changed her denomination several times over the years because she didn’t agree with what they were doing), still is not convinced I don’t worship statues. It still comes up in conversations . Some are jealous, I think because they know they don’t have the fullness of truth and they know the problems within the different denominations but to stubborn to really look into the Catholic Faith to see if it is the True Faith. So they find fault. I had a Dr. tell me once that most people who try to find fault with others, have a low opinion of themselves. If one has to lie about others in order to make themselves look good, that’s pretty sad. What about the 8 Commandment???
As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, ‘The Truth is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it.’

As for your grandkids, don’t be surprised if they see thru those lies. continue to set a good example and pray your hearts out for them and they will see thru the lies. I believe the protestant denominations are beginning to implode. They have divided and divided so much they are weakening. The Catholic Church has always been and will always be strong in the face of persecution. Christ promised that. The Holy Spirit will never allow the Catholic Church to teach anything but the fullness of the TRUTH. Someone once said, ‘If the sinners within the Church can’t destroy it, (and they try) then don’t expect those outside the True Church to do it’ That may not be the exact quote but you get the point anyway.
The more I know about the Catholic Church, the more I love it, I see Her strengths and faithfulness to Christ and the Holiness of many of her past and present. I am 72 years old and I learn more every day, I have learned lots just from this thread. It is an exciting journey to walk with Jesus Christ in the very Church HE founded for us and promised would NEVER error. The Catholic Church is 2.000 years old and has witnessed all of Christian History and still stands strong and Holy in our modern mixed up world. Faithful to all the Truths Jesus has given us. Welcome Home and God Bless all who are coming home or have already come home. Memaw

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Memaw. I agree with you about the ancient and solemn dignity of the Catholic Church being a cause of misunderstanding and jealousy to those outside the Church. It could be that spiritual insecurity that leads people to do things they shouldn’t if they call themselves Christian. I think the grandkids will come around. They’re smart and getting smarter everyday. They already have doubts about things they’re told about us and come to us to get the whole story. That shows they want to know the truth about the people they love. They’re concerned enough to ask and usually happy with the answer. Why their mother tries to sow seeds of discontent in them regarding us could be that insecurity, that doubt that maybe they don’t have the Way (and we might).

I love the Church as well and find it hard to accept that people understand so little about what a blessing Christ left for us in His Church. I’ve had the same problem with the statue issue. I think it’s that some people lump everything under the umbrella of worship, especially if they don’t have an established Liturgy and don’t celebrate the Eucharist or other Sacraments. They don’t know the difference between worship and prayer or reverence as opposed to idolatry.

Our life in the Catholic Church is more complex and more nuanced than theirs. We draw on 2000 years of Christian Tradition that is expressed in our Rites and our worship. Much of what we do is as it was in ancient times. As Catholics we understand the glory of such a rich history that gives us a direct link back to Christ and the Apostles and what it brings to us as Christians. Those who sing in an unadorned auditorium on Sunday and see that as worship can’t begin to fathom the richness and the ancient dignity of our worship, so they attack it as unbiblical. I think they secretly wish they had that kind of link with the Christian past, the link you feel during Mass or Rosary, Novena or Stations of the Cross. But they don’t have it and have been told they can’t because there’s only the Bible. So it’s a love, hate relationship, I think.

Anyway, thank you again, Memaw. It’s been nice chatting with you.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Ah, I am actually fairly well read in Catholic doctrine and history, and have been to lots of Catholic masses - my father’s family is Catholic. I just find the Catholic liturgy in English, and often the music, well, :shrug:less than inspiring. I’d love to go to a Latin Mass at some point, but they are not available regularly around here.

I was an altar boy in the late 60’s and participated in the Latin Mass. It was really beautiful, even for a kid who didn’t quite understand why he had to memorize all that Latin. The Mass then had solemn, holy air of mystery about it. Even though I knew the English translation, it was just so beautiful in Latin. I’m happy to see that it’s making a comeback under Pope Benedict and has the official approval of the Church again.

 

[imkingdad]

Thanks for the words of encouragement,

I love the Church as well and find it hard to accept that people understand so little about what a blessing Christ left for us in His Church. I’ve had the same problem with the statue issue. I think it’s that some people lump everything under the umbrella of worship, especially if they don’t have an established Liturgy and don’t celebrate the Eucharist or other Sacraments. They don’t know the difference between worship and prayer or reverence as opposed to idolatry.

Our life in the Catholic Church is more complex and more nuanced than theirs. We draw on 2000 years of Christian Tradition that is expressed in our Rites and our worship. Much of what we do is as it was in ancient times. As Catholics we understand the glory of such a rich history that gives us a direct link back to Christ and the Apostles and what it brings to us as Christians. Those who sing in an unadorned auditorium on Sunday and see that as worship can’t begin to fathom the richness and the ancient dignity of our worship, so they attack it as unbiblical. I think they secretly wish they had that kind of link with the Christian past, the link you feel during Mass or Rosary, Novena or Stations of the Cross. But they don’t have it and have been told they can’t because there’s only the Bible. So it’s a love, hate relationship, I think.

Anyway, thank you again, Memaw. It’s been nice chatting with you.

St A. a very well expressed sentiment and Right on the Money!!

 

[Memaw]

As a convert from Happy Heathenism following the light of my Wife I joined the Church after a great deal of investigation & reflection. It boiled down to either being Jewish or if a believed in the Messiah, then Catholic. Some 30 yrs ago.

But Like you Paul, It has just been recently that I once again woke up & saw the need to know more, to love more. Thank God for EWTN, for Catholic Radio, for this & other wonderful Catholic websites, and for the many fine men & women who care enough to share with us their knowledge, their love, their time and their prayers with us.

Amen, Like Fr. John Hardon S.J.told me a few years ago that it is a wonderful time to be a Catholic, if you are a strong practicing Catholic. Know your faith and love your faith enough to be a martyr if necessary, and that day may come, he said. He recommended daily Mass, if possible, say the Rosary every day, the Angelus, and spending time before the Blessed Sacrament. He said it is a great time for miracles if we have faith strong enough to truly believe in them. TRUST Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. He compared our times to the early Church. I am sure he will one day be canonized a Saint. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JustaServant]

Our life in the Catholic Church is more complex and more nuanced than theirs. We draw on 2000 years of Christian Tradition that is expressed in our Rites and our worship. Much of what we do is as it was in ancient times. As Catholics we understand the glory of such a rich history that gives us a direct link back to Christ and the Apostles and what it brings to us as Christians. Those who sing in an unadorned auditorium on Sunday and see that as worship can’t begin to fathom the richness and the ancient dignity of our worship, so they attack it as unbiblical. I think they secretly wish they had that kind of link with the Christian past, the link you feel during Mass or Rosary, Novena or Stations of the Cross. But they don’t have it and have been told they can’t because there’s only the Bible. So it’s a love, hate relationship, I think.

Perhaps that is what our Protestant brothers and sisters, and even many Catholics cannot see. When they think of Catholic, all they see is the present, not the past. When I was a fundamentalist I felt no connection to the early church. Yet that is where we began, where our roots are, our legacy and birthright.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

I post on a Christian (read, anti-Catholic) site occasionally and it amazes me what non-Catholics think of the Church. The misinformation is appalling and the Church is always attacked as un-Biblical. When you try to explain that the Church predates the New Testament, when the Church taught purely through Tradition, they pretend that early church was some “New Testament” church that still exists today. It consists of true, born again believers all over the world and from every denomination. When you ask, where are the remnants of that church, the buildings, the writings, the names of the leadership, etc,. they have no answer and just repeat the bizarre theory.

They contend that the early Church was not the Catholic Church at all and I have to protest because our lineage, through Tradition, tells us it was. And there simply was no other Christian church except your various heretical sects. That’s why they left no mark whatsoever on history, they - didn’t exist - while the Catholic Church has a wealth of history from the first years. They brush that off and just insist the Catholic Church is not the early Church. It’s mind boggling! They can chalk up Fathers of the Church as insignificant nobodies in the scheme of Christianity because they aren’t in the Bible. After you explain that they were disciples of the Apostles and their disciples, right through to the present day, they aren’t impressed. They aren’t in the Bible. They refuse to look at history and are content with their theoretical fantasy church. Anything to not have the Catholic Church be who she is.

I’m so glad I found this site where people recognize history, Tradition and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for what it is, the Church of Christ.

 

[jimpres]

Once those Christians, non catholic, start searching for the truth they realize that the Catholic church is the one true church established by God. The coming home series on EWTN has many high ranking christians coming home and the common thread is the search for the truth.

 

[Bluegoat]

I post on a Christian (read, anti-Catholic) site occasionally and it amazes me what non-Catholics think of the Church. The misinformation is appalling and the Church is always attacked as un-Biblical. When you try to explain that the Church predates the New Testament, when the Church taught purely through Tradition, they pretend that early church was some “New Testament” church that still exists today. It consists of true, born again believers all over the world and from every denomination. When you ask, where are the remnants of that church, the buildings, the writings, the names of the leadership, etc,. they have no answer and just repeat the bizarre theory.

They contend that the early Church was not the Catholic Church at all and I have to protest because our lineage, through Tradition, tells us it was. And there simply was no other Christian church except your various heretical sects. That’s why they left no mark whatsoever on history, they - didn’t exist - while the Catholic Church has a wealth of history from the first years. They brush that off and just insist the Catholic Church is not the early Church. It’s mind boggling! They can chalk up Fathers of the Church as insignificant nobodies in the scheme of Christianity because they aren’t in the Bible. After you explain that they were disciples of the Apostles and their disciples, right through to the present day, they aren’t impressed. They aren’t in the Bible. They refuse to look at history and are content with their theoretical fantasy church. Anything to not have the Catholic Church be who she is.

I’m so glad I found this site where people recognize history, Tradition and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for what it is, the Church of Christ.

I don’t think you can actually argue with any validity that there is no evidence of the early heretical or schismatic Christian groups. There is plenty. I don’t think your main point is lost, but it is perhaps best not to say something that isn’t true to back up your argument. Those groups left a variety of documents, other artifacts, and in some cases there are still examples of their descendants around.

Also, keep in mind that different sorts of Protestants that think the Catholic/Orthodox pre-Reformation church was somehow NOT the Church do have different views on how this occurred. Some believe that in fact their is a historical line connecting a rmnant back to the “true” early Church. But this group was, of course, secret, and so left little evidence - though some do actually claim a connection to a real group, so there is evidence of them.

Others, however, think there was a kind of new infusion of the Holy Spirit at some point around the Reformation. Why then? Well, I guess one could equally ask “why then” for Jesus too. Why leave the Jews waiting all that time?

And yet others DO think the pre-reformation Church was part of the real Church, just not in the way they think they were. That is, the Church then, as after the Reformation, was constituted by believers with faith in Christ. The institutional Church was simply the way it was expressed at that time and place.

Now, I think there are good arguments against these positions, but it is worthwhile to understand them. And the third does not perhaps really call for an historical argument to refute it, as it has no real issue with the history, just how it is interpreted.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

I understand that there were numerous heretical sects about at the time of the early Church. Church history speaks to many of them. That they were not accepted as bearers of the true message of Christ, I acknowledge their existence, but they were of little import in the grand scheme of Christianity.

I’m also aware the Protestants would like to discount 1500 years of Christiaity to validate their own, late claim as the universal church, but those arguments are self-serving, adn don’t make theological sense.

The institutional Church is the Church that arose from the first days of Christianity, the one that endured, prospered and kept the faith alive for centuries. It has endured as Christ said since even the gates of hades would not prevail against it. I understand the other arguments, I just don’t think they have much merit.

 

[Memaw]

I post on a Christian (read, anti-Catholic) site occasionally and it amazes me what non-Catholics think of the Church. The misinformation is appalling and the Church is always attacked as un-Biblical. When you try to explain that the Church predates the New Testament, when the Church taught purely through Tradition, they pretend that early church was some “New Testament” church that still exists today. It consists of true, born again believers all over the world and from every denomination. When you ask, where are the remnants of that church, the buildings, the writings, the names of the leadership, etc,. they have no answer and just repeat the bizarre theory.

They contend that the early Church was not the Catholic Church at all and I have to protest because our lineage, through Tradition, tells us it was. And there simply was no other Christian church except your various heretical sects. That’s why they left no mark whatsoever on history, they - didn’t exist - while the Catholic Church has a wealth of history from the first years. They brush that off and just insist the Catholic Church is not the early Church. It’s mind boggling! They can chalk up Fathers of the Church as insignificant nobodies in the scheme of Christianity because they aren’t in the Bible. After you explain that they were disciples of the Apostles and their disciples, right through to the present day, they aren’t impressed. They aren’t in the Bible. They refuse to look at history and are content with their theoretical fantasy church. Anything to not have the Catholic Church be who she is.

I’m so glad I found this site where people recognize history, Tradition and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for what it is, the Church of Christ.

They can ‘pretend’ and ‘contend’ all they want but the truth is the truth and nothing can change that. Journey Home is a wonderful program and I watch it every Monday night on EWTN, 7 pm CST. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t think you can actually argue with any validity that there is no evidence of the early heretical or schismatic Christian groups. There is plenty. I don’t think your main point is lost, but it is perhaps best not to say something that isn’t true to back up your argument. Those groups left a variety of documents, other artifacts, and in some cases there are still examples of their descendants around.

Also, keep in mind that different sorts of Protestants that think the Catholic/Orthodox pre-Reformation church was somehow NOT the Church do have different views on how this occurred. Some believe that in fact their is a historical line connecting a rmnant back to the “true” early Church. But this group was, of course, secret, and so left little evidence - though some do actually claim a connection to a real group, so there is evidence of them.

Others, however, think there was a kind of new infusion of the Holy Spirit at some point around the Reformation. Why then? Well, I guess one could equally ask “why then” for Jesus too. Why leave the Jews waiting all that time?

And yet others DO think the pre-reformation Church was part of the real Church, just not in the way they think they were. That is, the Church then, as after the Reformation, was constituted by believers with faith in Christ. The institutional Church was simply the way it was expressed at that time and place.

Now, I think there are good arguments against these positions, but it is worthwhile to understand them. And the third does not perhaps really call for an historical argument to refute it, as it has no real issue with the history, just how it is interpreted.

Some ‘interpretations’ are easy dispatched because they are revisionist and have no proof to base thier thesis on.
As to heretical sects around the time of the early Church, it is an interesting study. By the time of Constintine, I counted about 15. Reading there writings are equally fascinating. Not just comparisons to modern Pentecostal and fundamentalists, but also their imitation of Catholic practices. They all had their own ‘sacraments’. I believe it was Tertullian who pointed this our. I’ll look it up later.

 

[JustaServant]

Okay, at the request of a couple people I have posted the OP and reprints of a few posts on the CARM forum.
I’m sure it will recieve the expected response. I’ll check back later today to see their responses.

 

[JustaServant]

Okay, at the request of a couple people I have posted the OP and reprints of a few posts on the CARM forum.
I’m sure it will recieve the expected response. I’ll check back later today to see their responses.

Good heavens! I give the Catholics on that forum credit for superhuman patience. It’s obviously a lightly moderated forum. The hate there is incredible. I won’t be posting there, but it is interesting to see the reactions.

 

[pickguard1]

Good heavens! I give the Catholics on that forum credit for superhuman patience. It’s obviously a lightly moderated forum. The hate there is incredible. I won’t be posting there, but it is interesting to see the reactions.

what’s CARM?