Honestly, I put the burr in my own saddle, I will admit that. I am having a bad day which tends to lead towards a sharp tongue, and I tend to have sharp responses for situations when a person blurts out an answer that does not reflect a proper answer to the question anyway. Add those together and you get what transpired above.
Apology accepted gracefully. But I still wonder why you think what I said is incorrect. The Catholic Church has studied it thoroughly and declared that Anglican Orders were not valid according to the Apostolic Succession. What we think is not the answer, but the truth is.Honestly, I put the burr in my own saddle, I will admit that. I am having a bad day which tends to lead towards a sharp tongue, and I tend to have sharp responses for situations when a person blurts out an answer that does not reflect a proper answer to the question anyway. Add those together and you get what transpired above.
What you said is not wrong in itself, however it is incorrect for the question/answer at hand.
I apologize for my tone though.
*Memaw, it is because of people like you and your judgemental attitude that has me leaving the catholic church today. Not sure if this is ‘judgmental’ on your part, Tammyjean34, or just the overture to a lot of rationalization…
I came on this site to be encouraged, educated and accepted. Well, with your second post firmly under your belt, I’d say you have received some education. But, you know encouragement in leaving the Catholic Church is NOT what we are about. And acceptance … hmmmmmm… just what is it you want accepted? Sounds like you were doing a bit of lashing out. Is this what you intended?
What I have seen on this site is more of the negative, arguing as opposed to sharing, judging as opposed to acceptance and un Christ-like name calling, **
You can be as educated as you believe that you are, but the kingdom of heaven will be waiting when you get out of your catholic purgatory repenting for your non Christian behavior. *You really need to calm down, Tammyjean34, and be specific about just what it is you are so unhappy about. Is it that you doubt that there is a Purgatory? If so, you may have already left the Catholic Church…
And for your information, I have been educating myself a lot on the early Christians behavior and information is available other than the bible and the vatican website. Would you please give us some references for the books you have used in this self-education process?
How could the Catholic church even be “organized” in the first century? Glad you asked, Tammyjean34, you see, it starts off in Matthew 16:18 where Christ established the basis for all later organizations - He put Peter in charge and whatever Peter bound on earth was bound in heaven. Note, God so loved the world that He did not send a Committee!As you will recall, Peter was a fisherman - so, views by today’s standards of organizational structure would be quite lost on this guy! Christ did, however, promise the Holy Spirit to protect His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) to prevent it from ever teaching error! As I understand it, Pope benedict XVI uses the internet and has a cell phone…not sure if he is on FaceBook
but, the idea is that the Catholic Church has grown and devleoped to meet the needs of those seeking Christ’s Church in the modern world. This same idea - the Catholic Church (hmmmmm probably called The Way back then…) was organized to meet the needs of 1st Century people seeking Christ. The mission has never chaged - the Holy Spirit is still in charge … only the way of going about it.
The Apostles all began preaching the word of God in the different corners of the world and their Gospels were not put on “paper”. The Gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John were kept because they were the closest to each other. break them apart, they each saw some things differently. Other Gospels were wriiten but not included in the Bible, why?
**
I don’t know, I am still learning. Tammy
*Join the club, Tammyjean34, but of all the sites out there, I think you will find the best material and insight and discussion on CAF… of course, it may not all be in a form you are used to reading.
God bless*
It has to do with reliability.
*Reliability" is an excellent starting off point - and really goes to the heart and soul of the very first post - the time line! You see, here the OP gave an unbroken chain for the first 100 years after Christ’s death. No political confusons by Constintine, no grave error by gnostics and no mischief by misguidedf Manichæans! This time line is nothing if it has not presented RELIABILITY in a very clear and understandable format!
*
Consider these questions:
a) Can we say with great confidence (wrt 1 Cor, for example) that, “Here is what a letter, written by Paul, in the mid-first century actually looked like with only a relatively few uncertain words and phrases”?
*Is THAT what is really important, Radical? Think about it: isn’t the idea that God’s inspired Word - written in the words of men - has come down through the centuries to us - the way HE intended it to come to us? Isn’t that what is really important? From time to time I have thoughts of Paul being unable to pick up a pen … but, having a scribe write down the dictation Paul was giving! Would that change the character of 1st or even 2nd Cor? I don’t think so.
I am not entirely sure what your real argument is about this - because it was the Catholic Church you actually gave you the bible, your abridged version is based upon…*
b) Can we say with great confidence (wrt the Catholic Marian doctrines, for example) that, “Here is what the apostles actually taught word for word, about Mary in the mid-first century by way of oral tradition, with only a relatively few uncertain words and phrases”?
*Is this your argument, Radical?
Just what is it that you doubt God has done for His Own Mother? Seriously? The Immaculate Conception? (even though Paul says ALL HAVE SINNED?) Virgin Birth? Assumption into Heaven? Just because something does not exist in the Bible does not mean it is not REAL or SPIRITUAL or DIRECTLY FROM GOD! How do I know that? Simple: Matt 16 - Christ gives Peter the power to bind and lose on heaven and earth. Please note there are no limitations given. Then take John 16:19 where Christ says, “I have many things to tell you but you can not bear them now.” No where is it recorded that Christ said, “You can now bear what I am about to tell you” - and He starts to enumerate these obviously difficult items. No, you can not simply dismiss Oral Tradition because it is not writtend down…*
We can answer “yes” to question (a) and have that great confidence b/c of the wealth of manuscripts that we possess and quotations from the ECFs and based on our ability to compare and analyze them. We can therefore say that 1 Cor reliably reflects apostolic teaching w/o needing to make the same sort of faith assumptions as required for (b). The only way you can answer “yes” to (b) with similar confidence is to assume that if the doctrine shows up later in the historical record, then it must have been continuously (but only orally?) taught from the beginning…and that seems to be continguent on those faith based assumptions.
*If the bottom line is confidence based on reliability - well, may I suggest you go back to the First Post on this thread and check it out. Note, it does not start off in 1517 with the 95 Thesis being tacked to a door. You have the 1st 100 years of Christianity to look at - and marvel. If you have not gotten to the marveling part, that’s OK…
God bless
*Fr Hardon was right. Alas - we have not all followed this instruction. If our children were well instructed we would have more priests and would not have got into the mess we find ourselves in today. Proper instruction of the Faith is essential. In fact I have suggested to our Deacon that there should be RCIA for Catholics!That’s why History tends to repeat itself, The same ole call of Lucifier, “I will not serve”. Man seems to have plenty of time to serve self but not God. Fr. John Hardon S.J., told us many years ago, (at least 15) that we must teach our children their faith strong enough to be martyrs if necessary, as it may well come to that. And to be prepared ourselves. How prepared are we?? And what are we doing to help others!!! God Bless, Memaw
That is the message over and over again in the Old Testament…the people DID NOT teach their children their faith and that led to sin and destruction…every generation got worse until they turned back to God and then the cycle started all over again…didn’t teach their children…That is our problem today again…we see it in Catholics who have no idea some of the basics of their faith…especially some of the fallen away Catholics who have joined other churches because they claim the Catholic Church doesn’t teach about the “Holy Spirit”…I am not sure where they were during Sunday Mass…but I do think that Great Adventure Bible class should be taken by all Catholics. It is a great eye opener and leads to wanting to know more
*As I mentioned before, your question did not answer the question, “Which Protestant church CLAIMS to be Apostolic?” I mentioned that the Anglicans CLAIM this, (whether or not they do is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT QUESTION.)
I re-read it and I still don’t know what your beef is. Maybe you should re-read post 347. I was just explaining why the Anglicans do not have Apostolic Succession. It doesn’t matter what one ‘claims.’ Only the Truth matters. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life.” When one is serious about following Jesus Christ, we must seek out HIS TRUTH, the fullness of HIS Truth. God Bless, MemawAs I mentioned before, your question did not answer the question, “Which Protestant church CLAIMS to be Apostolic?” I mentioned that the Anglicans CLAIM this, (whether or not they do is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT QUESTION.)
If you forgot the flow of the conversation, re-read post #355 for an overview.
Yes, but that wasn’t the question. THAT’S what I am talking about. It’s like someone asking, “What’s your favorite color?” …and someone answers, “Blue.” …and then you come in and say, “Nope. Taco’s are the best.”
The question was; by Nicea325,
I realize what was said. And I never called you any names either.
this is getting very childish!
Ridiculous is more like it.
I agree, it would be wonderful if every adult Catholic would take a course of instructions ever so often. I have taken many of them, probably at least 25, over the years. Whenever I encourage someone to take it, I go with them so we can discuss the lesson. You can’t teach someone what you don’t know yourself. I have heard that some RCIA instructors do not want those who are already Catholic to join them, although I have several times. Years ago when the priests used to give the classes, anyone was welcome. God Bless, Memaw*Fr Hardon was right. Alas - we have not all followed this instruction. If our children were well instructed we would have more priests and would not have got into the mess we find ourselves in today. Proper instruction of the Faith is essential. In fact I have suggested to our Deacon that there should be RCIA for Catholics!
Cinette
In a way yes, because doctrine develops. The acorn is no longer. We now have a full blown tree.
No. Heresies did arise but these were squashed. And yes, with regards some doctrines, the Fathers debated them until the doctrine was promulgated - for Example the Trinity and the Homostatic union of the two natures of Christ.
What you mean here is the different diocese of the Catholic Church. There was only one Christian Church then - the Catholic Church.
You failed to mention that way back then a Bible cost an entire years earning. Only the very rich can afford Bible if there were any held privately at all.
Wrong again. I don’t know what sort of history book you are reading. But the first German translation of the Bible was not done by Luther but by the Church.
Complete lie unless you are talking about the burning of the heretical translation of the Bible.
Wrong. Martin Luther railed against the abuse. The doctrine was taught in the Bible. But the practice was abused.
That is right. He spoke Aramaic.
And who said it was wrong to have it translated to different languages. But the translation must be correct. Some translations are actually wrong.
Nope, there are more than one. A whole set of it as a matter of fact.
*It is wonderful to note the important role of the laity today. In every sphere of activity - teaching in universities and seminaries, apologetics, Missions, books, youth groups (not enough) etc etc. There are more informed Catholics today than in the past. Look - we have Catholic Answers and EWTN and it appears that the Dominican Order is prospering in the US. The Internet has certainly contributed towards speedy communication and if used wisely is a tremendous asset!
* *