A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic

[RNRobert]

If the Vatican did not deceive the people and try to force Latin on everyone Lutheranism would not exist. Once the bible was translated to German and English, the people and many of the Bishops found out the hypocracy coming from the Vatican once they had the opportunity to read the Bible in their own languages.

This is a common Protestant fairy tale- that the mean old Catholic Church kept the Bible in Latin so the common folk couldn’t read it, until brave Martin Luther came along and freed the Bible so everyone could read it. The problem is, it is a fairy tale. In those days, most people were illiterate (compulsory public schooling didn’t exist), so they couldn’t read anything, even in their own language. For those fortunate enough to receive an education were taught Latin as part of their curriculum, so they could read and write in that language as well as their native tongue. You might also want to realize that until the advent of the printing press, books were written by hand, which made them incredibly expensive, so the idea of going down to the corner book store to pick a a Bible was simply unknown (even after the advent of the printing press, books were still pretty costly). Also, as far as the Bible goes, a number of German language translations had already been made by the time Luther came along, so the idea that “the great reformer” introduced the vernacular Bible to the people is pure bunk.

There were a lot of problems with the Church at the time (the Church has always had problems- even in New Testament times), and Luther was right to point them out. The problem was, he was also a very prideful man who felt that he and he alone really understood what the Bible said, and tried to introduce novel doctrines like ‘Sola Fide’ and ‘Sola Scriptura’ which were unknown to the first fifteen centuries of Christianity.

 

[tammyjean34]

Amazing, if it isn’t on the Vatican website it isn’t real or exist right? So we should just go along with everything the cardinals and the Pope decide from Pope to Pope. Don’t eat meat on fridays, okay, just during lent. Don’t eat or drink on the day you go to church, okay, as long as you fast for an hour, well, it’s okay, you don’t have to do it anymore. Women must cover their heads in church, no you dont’ have to do it anymore. Guess what, you can pre pay for your sins, no you can’t do that anymore. You can’t be a priest and be married anymore, but you can be a deacon and be married. Women running mass is a sin, a mortal sin. We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God. It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church. There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin. Do you really believe that Jesus is the reason for all the garbage rules set forth by the vatican? I have been told by my catholic peers that I am going to hell because I do reiki. The American Bishops have declared it devils work. Yet, Pope John Paul II received reiki healing during his last years. I was joining a different parish and needed a Confirmation sponsor form for my daughter’s friend who was receiving her confirmation and asked me to be her sponsor. The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word? This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God. He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word. I practice what he preached and spending an hour on Sunday with those that would throw stones and make me confess that I drank coffee on the way to mass, because I am sinning. I hope that all of you who sit on this site condemning everything that you don’t agree with are spending at least an equal amount of time preaching the word to those that really need it. The homeless, the addicted, the lonely, the confused, the hungry, the pregnant and alone, those in the military. My aunt told me I needed to make a decision on my catholicism, so I did. I found that in my heart and soul I needed more then what my fellow catholics had to offer to me then rules, rules rules. Do I believe that the Catholic Church was the first church? I believe that Jesus wanted to stop the negativity within the Jewish Church and change an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. that is what he preached. that was what he meant for his new church to be. He preached outside, in homes, on the mountains and in the villages. He didn’t go build St. Peters Cathedral and fill it with statues and marble put on fancy robes and say here is my church. There are many more scriptures regarding the works of Jesus and his disciples then what was decided to be put in the bible. God Bless You All, I came here to look for more answers and have not found them so I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Amazing, if it isn’t on the Vatican website it isn’t real or exist right? So we should just go along with everything the cardinals and the Pope decide from Pope to Pope. Don’t eat meat on fridays, okay, just during lent. Don’t eat or drink on the day you go to church, okay, as long as you fast for an hour, well, it’s okay, you don’t have to do it anymore. Women must cover their heads in church, no you dont’ have to do it anymore. Guess what, you can pre pay for your sins, no you can’t do that anymore. You can’t be a priest and be married anymore, but you can be a deacon and be married. Women running mass is a sin, a mortal sin. We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God. It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church. There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin. Do you really believe that Jesus is the reason for all the garbage rules set forth by the vatican? I have been told by my catholic peers that I am going to hell because I do reiki. The American Bishops have declared it devils work. Yet, Pope John Paul II received reiki healing during his last years. I was joining a different parish and needed a Confirmation sponsor form for my daughter’s friend who was receiving her confirmation and asked me to be her sponsor. The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word? This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God. He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word. I practice what he preached and spending an hour on Sunday with those that would throw stones and make me confess that I drank coffee on the way to mass, because I am sinning. I hope that all of you who sit on this site condemning everything that you don’t agree with are spending at least an equal amount of time preaching the word to those that really need it. The homeless, the addicted, the lonely, the confused, the hungry, the pregnant and alone, those in the military. My aunt told me I needed to make a decision on my catholicism, so I did. I found that in my heart and soul I needed more then what my fellow catholics had to offer to me then rules, rules rules. Do I believe that the Catholic Church was the first church? I believe that Jesus wanted to stop the negativity within the Jewish Church and change an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. that is what he preached. that was what he meant for his new church to be. He preached outside, in homes, on the mountains and in the villages. He didn’t go build St. Peters Cathedral and fill it with statues and marble put on fancy robes and say here is my church. There are many more scriptures regarding the works of Jesus and his disciples then what was decided to be put in the bible. God Bless You All, I came here to look for more answers and have not found them so I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

So where exactly are your documented proofs for your assertions? You seem to think you know the ‘truth’ --show us the proof then.

 

[Arandur]

Amazing, if it isn’t on the Vatican website it isn’t real or exist right? So we should just go along with everything the cardinals and the Pope decide from Pope to Pope. Don’t eat meat on fridays, okay, just during lent. Don’t eat or drink on the day you go to church, okay, as long as you fast for an hour, well, it’s okay, you don’t have to do it anymore. Women must cover their heads in church, no you dont’ have to do it anymore. Guess what, you can pre pay for your sins, no you can’t do that anymore. You can’t be a priest and be married anymore, but you can be a deacon and be married. Women running mass is a sin, a mortal sin. We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God. It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church. There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin. Do you really believe that Jesus is the reason for all the garbage rules set forth by the vatican? I have been told by my catholic peers that I am going to hell because I do reiki. The American Bishops have declared it devils work. Yet, Pope John Paul II received reiki healing during his last years. I was joining a different parish and needed a Confirmation sponsor form for my daughter’s friend who was receiving her confirmation and asked me to be her sponsor. The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word? This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God. He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word. I practice what he preached and spending an hour on Sunday with those that would throw stones and make me confess that I drank coffee on the way to mass, because I am sinning. I hope that all of you who sit on this site condemning everything that you don’t agree with are spending at least an equal amount of time preaching the word to those that really need it. The homeless, the addicted, the lonely, the confused, the hungry, the pregnant and alone, those in the military. My aunt told me I needed to make a decision on my catholicism, so I did. I found that in my heart and soul I needed more then what my fellow catholics had to offer to me then rules, rules rules. Do I believe that the Catholic Church was the first church? I believe that Jesus wanted to stop the negativity within the Jewish Church and change an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. that is what he preached. that was what he meant for his new church to be. He preached outside, in homes, on the mountains and in the villages. He didn’t go build St. Peters Cathedral and fill it with statues and marble put on fancy robes and say here is my church. There are many more scriptures regarding the works of Jesus and his disciples then what was decided to be put in the bible. God Bless You All, I came here to look for more answers and have not found them so I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

Where did this come from?
I don’t see how this was a response to anything. When someone launches a screed like this, it usually seems to originate from some hurt that needs healing, or some resentment that comes from wanting to live life one’s own way, obedience to Jesus be damned.

If you would but exercise some patience and forebearance, the virtues you accuse others of not exercising towards you, we might be able to have a discussion about those things for which you seek answers.

Briefly, those changes in practice you mention are not doctrine. Practice changes by culture and over time, and may be corrected if it goes out line. Practice (or “discipline”) is not the Truth of doctrine that the Spirit infallibly guards in the Church. That is a common and unfortunate misconception.

Marriage rules may well be over-legislated. But great care is given because it is a touchy subject for many, because many violate Christ’s rules. The Church has no authority to countermand Christ’s orders; it has no authority to divorce. So the Church tries to be very sure about what is a valid, sacramental marriage, because once we know one exists, there’s no going back. The Church can’t do anything about it, because we can’t change what Jesus himself ordered. Often, those most frustrated by marriage rules are frustrated because they were validly married once, and they secularly divorced and remarried and now live in a state of adultery before God. They want their second marriages recognized. Well, Jesus decided this one. The Church is just trying to be careful to obey.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tammyjean34,

Ooooooooooooooh where to begin… the real trick here is that you will have to keep more than one ball in the air at a time… :juggle:

The catholic church today, is NOT the same church that it was in the first 3 centuries AD.

Even though you list yourself as Catholic,Tammyjean34, you don’t get an automatic pass for making statements without backing them up! Now, if you mean that Pope Benedict XVI does not wear clothing as we picture Peter wearing, that Church documents are not written on scrolls and that today’s main stream transportation is not by horse and chariot - well, I do not think you will get much of an argument for anyone on that

If, however, you are saying that the today’s Church no longer:

1.) identifies with Matthew 16 where Christ builts His Church on Peter

2.) that Christ is present: Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist

3.) that Christ gave His Apostles the power to forgive or retain the sins of men, and

4.) that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect the Catholic Church from error

Then you will get a significant argument - and you are invited to provide the references you used to make such a statement.

If you are truly studying history of the church, you will find how much has changed, the inaccurate information through the centuries and the dark side of the church leaders of the middle ages.

That is why some of the different religions exist at all. If the Vatican did not deceive the people and try to force Latin on everyone Lutheranism would not exist. Once the bible was translated to German and English, the people and many of the Bishops found out the hypocracy coming from the Vatican once they had the opportunity to read the Bible in their own languages.

Hold on there, Tammyjean34,this is simply an outrageous claim - TOTALLY DEVOID of any substantiation. After the Romans conquered Greece, the former rulers of the world, (aboutt 275BC) the Latin language slowly but surely began to take over as the dominant language. There were many various translations of the bible - the snag was not that they were in German or any other language besides Latin - rather, they contianed errors. Of course there were hypocratic Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Deacons - and Laymen! All of these listed groups are made up of people with real human failings. Do you know of an ogranization not so constitutued? The difference is that Christ is leading His Church - not humans. Seriously, if this were not the case - how do you think it has lasted for 2,000 years?Simply by the sheer power of its hypocracy?

To be Christian is not to challenge other religions it is to believe in your faith and your God. We are not here to judge. That is Gods job. If you are sure about your faith, then live it and share it and love all. Tammy

This appears to be a new definition of Christianity - and one I am not familiar with, Tammyjean34. Can you supply a reference - maybe one from Scripture to avoid the problems with the hypocracy problem.

The issue of “…judge not lest you be judged…” looks like it has been turned into “…let’s let everyone get along…” If you want some scripture specific to actual judging - take a look at just these four scriptural references. Evil is already judged. If we “rebuke” and “correct” - don’t you think we have already made a judgment?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction.” Notice that in this verse we are told to rebuke and encourage; so we should not correct if we do not encourage.

Titus 2:15 “These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”

Ephesians 5:11 “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”

I am looking forward to your response.

God bless

 

[jimpres]

Tom great reply to Tammy… glad that you answered the mail.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tammyjean34,

One of the problems with rants like this, is that foam coming off tends to foul one’s keyboard. So, be careful… problems like that are not covered by warranty!

Actually, I find myself IN TOTAL AGREEMENT with one thing in your post… your dear Aunt apparent has your number… and told you straight and you really do need to make a choice. She is not responsible for poor choices.

Amazing, if it isn’t on the Vatican website it isn’t real or exist right? EDITED FOR BREVITY

We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God. It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh … so this is the fire under all of this smoke…?

There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin.

Well, you know, you either play by the rules or you set up your own game. Looks like that is what you have done and now you want to criticize those who are abiding by the rules (check out the '…bind and lose…" part in Matt 16 - this would be considered a direct application.

The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word? This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God.

I guess you forget to tell us about your actual adventure into seeking forgiveness. Maybe this omission was also picked up by the women who correctly questioned your qualifications to be a sponsor. And, yes, this is very Catholic and very Christian. This wild search for excuses and faulting others who do not buy into your pity-party approach to religion is wearing thin. Maybe even you are starting to see the holes that have developed. You claim to no longer practice the Catholic Faith - so, why not be honest and just change your religious affiliation in the bio section of CAF - if nothing else, it will let you free youself from an obvious burden of misrepresentation (hypocracy?)

He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word.

This is the part with the most serious error - grade A, extra large - self-deception. About the only thing you have not told us from your heart is the name of your spouse! What remaining secrets you have are not worth knowing. You see, I ran out of klenex several run on sentences ago. .

Do I believe that the Catholic Church was the first church? I believe that Jesus wanted to stop the negativity within the Jewish Church and change an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. that is what he preached. that was what he meant for his new church to be. He preached outside, in homes, on the mountains and in the villages.

I must admit you surprised me with this one… I really did think you would answer your own quesiton. It is hard for me to imagine anyone evading their own question - especially one where a simple “yes” or “no” is all it would take. Without a doubt, you really do need to go back and talk to your Aunt… she sounds like the kindest person you have told us about.

God bless and since you do not plan to read or post again, may God be merciful to you in your life.

I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jimpres,

Thank you.

I do not know why I did not read her earlier - and most outrageous - post first?! It would seem that this Tammy is building barriers all around her real issue - and rejecting every argument that does nto fit with her pre-conceived ‘logic’.

As I understand it, we have two “B’s” that we work with through out our life - sort of like the two rails that a train rides on. The first is BELIEF and the second is BEHAVIOR. Eventually a lot of folks find that that the power of sin is not just an incidental issue but one involving their core being! This influence had a direct effect on our BEHAVIOR - the initial problem is that BELIEF is causing us discomfort because our BEHAVIOR is ot in conformity with our BELIEF. So, what do we do??? Well, there is only one thing a person who is without Christ and the Sacraments of His Church can do: they conform their BELIEF to fit their BEHAVIOR.

Our previous poster lamented all of the rules associated with marriage within the Catholic Church. So, she tells us that she ignored her BELIEF so she could keep her BEHAVIOR unchanged.l From my experience, this answers at lest 90% of all questions put to it - should I follow my BELIEF or BEHAVIOR?

God bless

Tom great reply to Tammy… glad that you answered the mail.

 

[Pat_De]

One of the areas of Church history that has always fascinated me is the study of New Testament era chronology. Protestants act as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Baptist among them.
I have concocted a timeline here deliberately within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events.
I do not claim this timeline to be exact, but its pretty close:

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James
c. 45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians **
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark** written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - **Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians **
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - **Luke **written
c. 60-70 - ***The Didache *is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy **
July 18-19, 64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written
June 9, 68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.

So tell us Protestants, why is it within a 100 year period, does the Church look so Catholic?

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth? How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

That is my only 2 cents to the discussion because a time-line shows nothing but a time-line and if checked accurately there would be plenty of debate as to its accuracy but it is what it is, a time-line - so what.

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter’s Square what would go through their minds as they looked around. I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don’t know.

 

[Tomb54]

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth? How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

That is my only 2 cents to the discussion because a time-line shows nothing but a time-line and if checked accurately there would be plenty of debate as to its accuracy but it is what it is, a time-line - so what.

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter’s Square what would go through their minds as they looked around. I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don’t know.

Actually the CC looks alot like it did in the beginning in many ways. You can read in the Bible how the Apostles and early believers went to their Jewish Temple with all it’s rituals and then on Sunday offered the breaking of the Bread afterward, which by the way is what Jesus did to since he was a Jew. Jesus showed ritual was important at the last supper and several other times toward the end of His mission on earth. So no it did not get there by tradition of men but men did influence some of it during part of the churches history. Rituals are important to God because He understands man and their need for it. After the Jews kicked this sect out completely they started to develop their own services but since they were still many Jews in the Faith the CC has many things that Jews would recognize. The main thing that cause the early christians to change was that being presecuted they had to go into hiding. The biggest difference is that the CC gives most of it’s excess money to the poor the Jews during Jesus time did not. Many of the great works of art and the building were donated.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pat De,

You know, I guess it is just one of those hot Texas days … but, I do not see how your post has any relationship to the OP… Let me show you you what I mean

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth? How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

The OP did not address anything in the 1700-2000 time period. I think it appropriate to post on the original topic - you, of course, are perfectly free to make your own posts dealing with the period 1700-2000. I think you will have a rich reference area to gather data on the traditions of men. Honest, this period abounds with such traditions.

That is my only 2 cents to the discussion because a time-line shows nothing but a time-line and if checked accurately there would be plenty of debate as to its accuracy but it is what it is, a time-line - so what.

Maybe this two cents you offer has been upwardly adjusted by inflation… You see, Pat De, you criticize the offered time line, but fail to identify where it falls short on accuracy. You also fail to offer a real debate topic - except a curiously dismissive remark “so-what” . If it is, “so-what”, just why did you bother to post at all? The purpose of CAF is to act as an answer forum - not as targets for snipping comments devoid of fact or data.

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter’s Square what would go through their minds as they looked around. I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don’t know.

I guess this is where some sense of history plays an important role. St. Peter’s Square was not built yet! Yes… Imperial Rome (the group that was actively throwing these early Catholics to the lions and other-wise finding ways to murder them in an effort to snuff out the Church founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16)) was very much active at this time.

Now, when it comes to your speculating on what are the differences between the early Catholic Chruch and today’s Catholic Church - let me tell you: there are no doctrine in the first three hundred years of the Catholic Church’s history that were evee rejected or diavowed by later Catholic Church authorities. And that means… (here are just three examples)

1,) Christ built His Church on Peter (Matt 16) and gave him the power to bind and lose,

2.) Christ gave us the Eucharist which is His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity hidden under the appearance of bread and wine (John 6 and the Last Supper accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke)

3.) Christ gave His Apostles and their successors the power to forgive sin (John 20:23)

As you see, there isn’t any difference in what Christ taught and what the Catholic Church teaches today. In your enthusiasm for checking out the traditions of men - look at the chaos in protestantism over doctrine, the Eucharist is ridiculed as a fiction and men do not use the channel given by Christ for the forgiveness of sin. But, that sad story is jumping ahead to the 16th Century - and is still with us today…and, not in keeping with the OP.

Looking forward to seeing some substance in your next post…

God bless

 

[Memaw]

Amazing, if it isn’t on the Vatican website it isn’t real or exist right? So we should just go along with everything the cardinals and the Pope decide from Pope to Pope. Don’t eat meat on fridays, okay, just during lent. Don’t eat or drink on the day you go to church, okay, as long as you fast for an hour, well, it’s okay, you don’t have to do it anymore. Women must cover their heads in church, no you dont’ have to do it anymore. Guess what, you can pre pay for your sins, no you can’t do that anymore. You can’t be a priest and be married anymore, but you can be a deacon and be married. Women running mass is a sin, a mortal sin. We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God. It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church. There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin. Do you really believe that Jesus is the reason for all the garbage rules set forth by the vatican? I have been told by my catholic peers that I am going to hell because I do reiki. The American Bishops have declared it devils work. Yet, Pope John Paul II received reiki healing during his last years. I was joining a different parish and needed a Confirmation sponsor form for my daughter’s friend who was receiving her confirmation and asked me to be her sponsor. The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word? This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God. He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word. I practice what he preached and spending an hour on Sunday with those that would throw stones and make me confess that I drank coffee on the way to mass, because I am sinning. I hope that all of you who sit on this site condemning everything that you don’t agree with are spending at least an equal amount of time preaching the word to those that really need it. The homeless, the addicted, the lonely, the confused, the hungry, the pregnant and alone, those in the military. My aunt told me I needed to make a decision on my catholicism, so I did. I found that in my heart and soul I needed more then what my fellow catholics had to offer to me then rules, rules rules. Do I believe that the Catholic Church was the first church? I believe that Jesus wanted to stop the negativity within the Jewish Church and change an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. that is what he preached. that was what he meant for his new church to be. He preached outside, in homes, on the mountains and in the villages. He didn’t go build St. Peters Cathedral and fill it with statues and marble put on fancy robes and say here is my church. There are many more scriptures regarding the works of Jesus and his disciples then what was decided to be put in the bible. God Bless You All, I came here to look for more answers and have not found them so I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

Seems to me there is someone like Tammy on every thread I’ve been on. They come in, throw their garbage around and then make like they’ll never be back. I’d be willing to bet they look back in ever so often to see what kind of trouble they’ve stirred up. Keep them in our prayers. God Bless, Memaw

 

[paul_c]

Seems to me there is someone like Tammy on every thread I’ve been on. They come in, throw their garbage around and then make like they’ll never be back. I’d be willing to bet they look back in ever so often to see what kind of trouble they’ve stirred up. Keep them in our prayers. God Bless, Memaw

Things aren’t always as they seem. Tammy was obviously hurt and angry. You could see it in her post. She wasn’t trying to cause trouble - she was venting. Sometimes, rather than answer the anger with more anger, it is helpful to answer with compassion, try to find out what is bothering that person and then help them work it out. This is best done off line. Her real story would probably surprise you. And yes, we should keep them in our prayers.

 

[Nicea325]

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth? How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

That is my only 2 cents to the discussion because a time-line shows nothing but a time-line and if checked accurately there would be plenty of debate as to its accuracy but it is what it is, a time-line - so what.

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter’s Square what would go through their minds as they looked around. I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don’t know.

Hhhhhhmm? And why does humanity of today look and act so much like the SINNERS of Israel? Was it not because of failure to OBEY God? Traditions of men? What is your point?

BTW: Jesus left a church of sinners,not perfectionists,in case you did not know…

I wonder if Jesus would be disgusted?

 

[RNRobert]

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter’s Square what would go through their minds as they looked around. I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don’t know.

Whenever I hear comments like this or “the Church is too wealthy,” I’m reminded of the Scripture passage where Judas Iscariot says “that should have sold and the money given to the poor.”

 

[Memaw]

Things aren’t always as they seem. Tammy was obviously hurt and angry. You could see it in her post. She wasn’t trying to cause trouble - she was venting. Sometimes, rather than answer the anger with more anger, it is helpful to answer with compassion, try to find out what is bothering that person and then help them work it out. This is best done off line. Her real story would probably surprise you. And yes, we should keep them in our prayers.

Your right, things aren’t always as they seem. I wasn’t angry , just observant!! I’ve seen this type of rant before. Its called ‘hatred of the Catholic Church’. Just look at all the things she was ranting about!!! She didn’t come here to look for answers, she won’t even listen to anybody. The answers “with compassion” were just spurned by Tammy. God Bless, Memaw

 

[jimpres]

Your right, things aren’t always as they seem. I wasn’t angry , just observant!! I’ve seen this type of rant before. Its called ‘hatred of the Catholic Church’. Just look at all the things she was ranting about!!! She didn’t come here to look for answers, she won’t even listen to anybody. The answers “with compassion” were just spurned by Tammy. God Bless, Memaw

You are correct there are many out there who rant regardless of the truth. They don’t want to be convinced or dialog about the issue(s) just expound there ideology. Many don’t like the Catholics but have no idea what we are about.

 

[paul_c]

You are correct there are many out there who rant regardless of the truth. They don’t want to be convinced or dialog about the issue(s) just expound there ideology. Many don’t like the Catholics but have no idea what we are about.

Honestly, you guys are off the mark here. Tammy is a Catholic, born and raised, who raised her children Catholic as well. I grant you that there are people on these boards that anti-Catholic and are here to cause trouble. Tammy, despite her venting, is not one of those. She’s just hurting and frustrated right now as was very apparent in her post and it was a cry for help of sorts. I doubt that she will post like that again so just let it go, or better yet, instead of attacking, try to help her back… A little compassion goes a long way and we all need it at some points in our lives.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Memaw,

When I first read your post, I thought to myself… "Now she’s getting all mushy on us…

Your right, things aren’t always as they seem. I wasn’t angry , just observant!! I’ve seen this type of rant before. Its called ‘hatred of the Catholic Church’. Just look at all the things she was ranting about!!! She didn’t come here to look for answers, she won’t even listen to anybody. The answers “with compassion” were just spurned by Tammy. God Bless, Memaw

But, seriously, after reading Tammy’s post, my impression is that she has decided to launch an attack on Christ’s Church to justify her behavior. And, I did not think that was either appropriate or in keeping with CAF’s policies. Goodness, there are protestant list groups that thrive on such venom and I am confident would gladly welcome her (but, I am sure she will have to drop her claim to being a ‘Catholic’ !) That was my focus with my response.

The snag comes in when one tries to evaluate what can I do to help the person return to the Catholic Church. Naturally, there is no real answer - short of the Grace of God… So, how does one go about being that instrument of God’s Grace? Paul’s idea of being compassionate sounds good - but, that implies that there is someone even interested in a dialogue. Tammay drops her venom and then says ‘good-bye, I am off this list! You guys failed me!’ Personally, while nature and nurture play a role in our behaviors - we are still responsible for acting like reasonable human beings. Crying about rules that one has already broken - and then justified for breaking - and then criticizing others for keeping those same rules, seems like a real smoke screen.

Christ, of course, met many folks with their own vision of how things should be done or had their own smoke-screens ready to deploy at the first sign that a change in behavior was necessary. Look at the ‘rich young man’ who walked away from a call to follow Christ, the ‘woman caught in adultery’ and the Pharisees who stopped using ‘smoke’ and immediately built a wall to protect their destructive behavior! While one can see compassion thoughout Christ’s life, He also dispensed ‘tough love’ when requried. The nice thing about CAF is that there are so many folks with different ideas - we get to learn from a lot of folks. That is a real blessing for everyone. Of course, those who refuse to learn will have to address that issue on Judgment Day.

God bless

 

[jlhargus]

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth? How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

JL: Not Phariseeic but Jewish looking, because we are NEW ISRAEL, ONE people not thousands of scattered denominations. Got there by God establishing his Church, my reason for becoming a member of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH the living VISIBLE FELLOWSHIP and body, of the PRESENTS of Christ on earth. That Church Christ is building from living stones with Peter as the visible ROCK of faith unity.

What the group gathered and SENT by Christ was called at any given time or place does not mater in the lest. What matters is continuity with that One SENT Fellowship. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and **TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.

The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught. They were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.

The apostles sit on thrones judging, they also eat and drink at Christ’s table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink at every mass.

When Peter is converted HIS FAITH WILL NEVER FAIL, he is to STRENGTHEN ALL THE BRETHREN as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” [THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood.

[Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ **DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] Breaking of Bread is another term for mass. CONTINUED: