A Simple Timeline Proves the Early Church was Catholic

[jlhargus]

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and **UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.]

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

US would be the Church. The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority SENT by ChrisT. Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order,
[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE **ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]
CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one fellowship Christ sent to teach all nations, all he commanded, Mt 28:20. He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17.

I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead us in all truth, not hit and miss truth. To follow those, Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught. The Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace OF GOD given unto me BY the effectual WORKING OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And **TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWSHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

2Cor5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD did BESEECH YOU BY US: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna.

So in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, of which Christ is now king, Peter is appointed Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16.

Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the regenerated spiritual Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones. [Eph3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 **Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, world without end. Amen.] CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 For **it seemed good to the HOLY GHOST, and to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul went by revealation to verify his teachings with the ONE Fellowship, to be sure he was not running in vain. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tradition of men made a doctrine of God around 1520 AD.]

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT **US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. Sorry about the length.

 

[Pat_De]

Hi, Pat De,

You know, I guess it is just one of those hot Texas days … but, I do not see how your post has any relationship to the OP… Let me show you you what I mean

The OP did not address anything in the 1700-2000 time period. I think it appropriate to post on the original topic - you, of course, are perfectly free to make your own posts dealing with the period 1700-2000. I think you will have a rich reference area to gather data on the traditions of men. Honest, this period abounds with such traditions.

Maybe this two cents you offer has been upwardly adjusted by inflation… You see, Pat De, you criticize the offered time line, but fail to identify where it falls short on accuracy. You also fail to offer a real debate topic - except a curiously dismissive remark “so-what” . If it is, “so-what”, just why did you bother to post at all? The purpose of CAF is to act as an answer forum - not as targets for snipping comments devoid of fact or data.

I guess this is where some sense of history plays an important role. St. Peter’s Square was not built yet! Yes… Imperial Rome (the group that was actively throwing these early Catholics to the lions and other-wise finding ways to murder them in an effort to snuff out the Church founded by Christ on Peter (Matt 16)) was very much active at this time.

Now, when it comes to your speculating on what are the differences between the early Catholic Chruch and today’s Catholic Church - let me tell you: there are no doctrine in the first three hundred years of the Catholic Church’s history that were evee rejected or diavowed by later Catholic Church authorities. And that means… (here are just three examples)

1,) Christ built His Church on Peter (Matt 16) and gave him the power to bind and lose,

2.) Christ gave us the Eucharist which is His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity hidden under the appearance of bread and wine (John 6 and the Last Supper accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke)

3.) Christ gave His Apostles and their successors the power to forgive sin (John 20:23)

As you see, there isn’t any difference in what Christ taught and what the Catholic Church teaches today. In your enthusiasm for checking out the traditions of men - look at the chaos in protestantism over doctrine, the Eucharist is ridiculed as a fiction and men do not use the channel given by Christ for the forgiveness of sin. But, that sad story is jumping ahead to the 16th Century - and is still with us today…and, not in keeping with the OP.

Looking forward to seeing some substance in your next post…

God bless

Maybe this two cents you offer has been upwardly adjusted by inflation… You see, Pat De, you criticize the offered time line, but fail to identify where it falls short on accuracy. You also fail to offer a real debate topic - except a curiously dismissive remark “so-what” . If it is, “so-what”, just why did you bother to post at all? The purpose of CAF is to act as an answer forum - not as targets for snipping comments devoid of fact or data.

**
You are correct and I apologize to everyone.**

 

[Pat_De]

Actually the CC looks alot like it did in the beginning in many ways. You can read in the Bible how the Apostles and early believers went to their Jewish Temple with all it’s rituals and then on Sunday offered the breaking of the Bread afterward, which by the way is what Jesus did to since he was a Jew. Jesus showed ritual was important at the last supper and several other times toward the end of His mission on earth. So no it did not get there by tradition of men but men did influence some of it during part of the churches history. Rituals are important to God because He understands man and their need for it. After the Jews kicked this sect out completely they started to develop their own services but since they were still many Jews in the Faith the CC has many things that Jews would recognize. The main thing that cause the early christians to change was that being presecuted they had to go into hiding. The biggest difference is that the CC gives most of it’s excess money to the poor the Jews during Jesus time did not. Many of the great works of art and the building were donated.

I agree that rituals have a place in the church Jesus is building, but all rituals must be tested to be in accord with the revelation God has given man to have any relevance to God and the Pharisees got to the point where their traditions and rituals offended God. So if the ritual passes the standards of Scripture then celebrate. God cares about the internals, not the externals.

I do apologize to everyone for the first post as Tqualey pointed out some truth which I agree and quoted, then apologized.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pat De,

Thank you, but as I understand it, the real purpose of CAF is to encourage dialogue as we all move closer to Christ. Now, this particular time line addresses roughly the first 100 years of Christianity - and that would be the Catholic Faith. If you want to begin a new thread - like a discussion beginning in 1700, may I suggest that you develop a similar time line as was presented by the OP and then state your case.

Or, stick around on this thread and look to the first one hundred years as posters explain their thoughs and insights.

I really am interested in hearing your point of view (just provide some references…) I think you can have a challenging discussion. Just do not lose heart - this is an excellent list with some truly remarkable folks making contributions for the betterment of all.

God bless

**
You are correct and I apologize to everyone.**

 

[Memaw]

CONTINUED:

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 For **it seemed good to the HOLY GHOST, and to US

, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul went by revealation to verify his teachings with the ONE Fellowship, to be sure he was not running in vain. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tradition of men made a doctrine of God around 1520 AD.]

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT **US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. Sorry about the length.

WOW!! You should write a BOOK!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[jlhargus]

WOW!! You should write a BOOK!! God Bless, Memaw

JL: Thanks Memaw.

I agree that rituals have a place in the church Jesus is building, but all rituals must be tested to be in accord with the revelation God has given man to have any relevance to God and the Pharisees got to the point where their traditions and rituals offended God. So if the ritual passes the standards of Scripture then celebrate. God cares about the internals, not the externals.

I do apologize to everyone for the first post as Tqualey pointed out some truth which I agree and quoted, then apologized.

JL: God bless you Pat.

 

[bona_fides_1]

The catholic church today, is NOT the same church that it was in the first 3 centuries AD.

How do you know and by what record or standard do you say this? Is Christ not still the head of His Church? Did the gates of Hell prevail against the Church that Christ promised would not be prevailed against?

If you are truly studying history of the church, you will find how much has changed, the inaccurate information through the centuries and the dark side of the church leaders of the middle ages. That is why some of the different religions exist at all.

So are you admitting here that there was NO OTHER church but the apostolic Christian church, the Catholic Church (and the schismatic Orthodox brethren), up to the point in time that history has been corrected? Can you reference a historical book that you used to study this history? Or are you going by what somone taught you by secular oral tradition as to the histories?

If the Vatican did not deceive the people and try to force Latin on everyone Lutheranism would not exist. Once the bible was translated to German and English, the people and many of the Bishops found out the hypocracy coming from the Vatican once they had the opportunity to read the Bible in their own languages.

Has it occurred to you that there was no orthodox English or other language at the time and because Latin was the only well developed language it was the basis for a universal language that all could use? Do you not see that common language with a single teaching could become the standard by which the educated peoples of many different cultures could teach others that could not read or write? Do you see no unity principal being developed via language? Would you rather we go back to teaching in the original Greek or better yet the original Aramaic?

Do you accept the Catholic Church for having the wherewithal to construct the bible in the first place but then become suspicious of the Church for translating it to the most common language among the educated peoples?

I think others here have pointed out the errors in your accounting of the history.

To be Christian is not to challenge other religions it is to believe in your faith and your God. We are not here to judge. That is Gods job. If you are sure about your faith, then live it and share it and love all. Tammy

I think you missed the entire chapter on the Great Commission that compels disciples of the Lord TO TEACH ALL NATIONS. Do you think that teaching means we should not point out the errors that are held by the population like Paul?

Consider that living one’s faith and sharing one’s faith means to teach and spread that faith. Of course you make a fine point here in mentioning that we should have charity for all. But part of charity is helping people get out of the traps of false teachings.

peace,
BF

 

[Memaw]

Honestly, you guys are off the mark here. Tammy is a Catholic, born and raised, who raised her children Catholic as well. I grant you that there are people on these boards that anti-Catholic and are here to cause trouble. Tammy, despite her venting, is not one of those. She’s just hurting and frustrated right now as was very apparent in her post and it was a cry for help of sorts. I doubt that she will post like that again so just let it go, or better yet, instead of attacking, try to help her back… A little compassion goes a long way and we all need it at some points in our lives.

I am surprised!! If she was ‘born and raised’ and raised her children Catholic, then she should know and understand her Catholic faith better than she seemed to do. I don’t believe anyone was ‘attacking’ her but felt she was ‘attacking’ the Catholic Church, on many sides. We can only go by what she writes. You seem to know her pretty well, were you able to help her anymore than her Aunt could?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Cinette]

*I believe that Tammy is bitter and angry probably because she believes that the Church is against her for marrying outside the Church. A lot of people feel that way.

If Tammy were to discuss her situation with a priest she would probably be surprised to find that the Church is not going to condemn her outright but to seek whether she had entered into a valid marriage and treat her with understanding and compassion.

What Tammy is saying about the Church really demonstrates anger and resentment. Then of course she refuses to discuss and be reasonable - she vents her anger and refuses to discourse!! Not a very wise attitude I’d say.

God bless you Tammy
Cinette*

 

[Pat_De]

Hi, Pat De,

Thank you, but as I understand it, the real purpose of CAF is to encourage dialogue as we all move closer to Christ. Now, this particular time line addresses roughly the first 100 years of Christianity - and that would be the Catholic Faith. If you want to begin a new thread - like a discussion beginning in 1700, may I suggest that you develop a similar time line as was presented by the OP and then state your case.

Or, stick around on this thread and look to the first one hundred years as posters explain their thoughs and insights.

I really am interested in hearing your point of view (just provide some references…) I think you can have a challenging discussion. Just do not lose heart - this is an excellent list with some truly remarkable folks making contributions for the betterment of all.

God bless

Thanks for the invitation, but I really do not have anything to add and should not have posted here in the first place and again I do apologize for the rude disruption.

 

[guanophore]

Amazing, if it isn't on the Vatican website it isn't real or exist right? So we should just go along with everything the cardinals and the Pope decide from Pope to Pope. Don't eat meat on fridays, okay, just during lent. Don't eat or drink on the day you go to church, okay, as long as you fast for an hour, well, it's okay, you don't have to do it anymore. Women must cover their heads in church, no you dont' have to do it anymore.

I am surprised that you have identified yourself as a Catholic, since you seem to have so much hostility against the Church. Perhaps you have been wounded by authority figures, so you have an axe to grind against the Magesterium? Why would it bother you for the Vatican to post documents on a website?

The things you mention above are disciplines, and so yes, they can change. It might be helpful if you learned the difference, as you may not have to be so angry about them?

Guess what,  you can pre pay for your sins, no you can't do that anymore.

You know, I was very poorly catechized too when I was growing up, and I used to believe this also. It is amazing how many wrong ideas one can pick up, even if you are being taught by nuns!

 You can't be a priest and be married anymore, but you can be a deacon and be married.

Why does this bother you?

 Women running mass is a sin, a mortal sin.

What does it mean to “run Mass”?

 We have so many rules, regulations and laws that have nothing to do with honoring our God.

I can understand why it seems this way. It seems that you do have a problem with rules and honor.

 It is easier to marry a Jew in the catholic church then it is for me to be accepted by my church because I was not married in the Catholic Church. There are more rules, red tape and regulations regarding getting married in the Catholic Church and what is accepted as a marriage within the catholic church and what is accepted as participation in a non catholic wedding, it is enough to make your head spin.

Indeed. Marriage is considered very serious, as it is a reflection of God’s relationship with His Bride. It is clear when looking at society that the breakdown of marriage and family is at the core of the bulk of our social problems. If you have been frustrated about getting your marriage validated, maybe that explains why you are so hostile and critical about “rules”?

Had you considered that God is trying to guide you by providing rules for you?

Do you really believe that Jesus is the reason for all the garbage rules set forth by the vatican?

I do not believe there are any “garbage rules set forth by the Vatican”. But yes, in answer to your question, I do believe that the rules are for our spiritual benefit.

I have been told by my catholic peers that I am going to hell because I do reiki. The American Bishops have declared it devils work. Yet, Pope John Paul II received reiki healing during his last years.

I heard that about reike too, and was surprised. I have had it and found it wonderful. I think that maybe it may be dangerous for those who are weak in faith.

I was joining a different parish and needed a Confirmation sponsor form for my daughter’s friend who was receiving her confirmation and asked me to be her sponsor. The woman started grilling me about where I was married etc and told me I wasn’t qualified to be a sponsor. This is Christian? This is forgiving? This is spreading Jesus word?

Yes. It has become evident that dispensing sacraments when people are not really serious about practicing the faith does more harm than good. Nowadays, in order to be a sponsor, one must be able to demonstrate that one is in good standing with the Church. Why have a role model for a young person who does not practice what they claim to believe? This is one of the reasons that our young people are in so much trouble today.

This is why I no longer practice my Catholic Faith but have not forsaken my Lord God. He and only he knows what is in my heart and soul, how I treat people and how I spread the word. I practice what he preached and spending an hour on Sunday with those that would throw stones and make me confess that I drank coffee on the way to mass, because I am sinning.

It seems like you have some soul searching to do.

 My aunt told me I needed to make a decision on my catholicism, so I did. I found that in my heart and soul I needed more then what my fellow catholics had to offer to me then rules, rules rules.

Do yourself a favor, then, tammy, and change your religious affiliation. Most of us here are very hard on folks who claim they are Catholic but are not.

He didn't go build St. Peters Cathedral and fill it with statues and marble put on fancy robes and say here is my church.

Do you honestly believe this could have happened without HIm building it? Why do you think the entire Roman empire collapsed, but the Church remained?

There are many more scriptures regarding the works of Jesus and his disciples then what was decided to be put in the bible. God Bless You All, I came here to look for more answers and have not found them so I will no longer be reading or posting. It makes my soul feel more empty to read the banter. It sounds more like my dog can beat your dog!

You will remain in my prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Why does the the “Catholic” Church 1700-2000 years later look and act so much like “Phariseeic Jewish Religion” in garb, ritual and displays of wealth?

Most of our perceptions are influenced by our own prejudices. This question actually says more about you than it does about the Church.

How did the “Catholic Church” and "the “Jewish Religion” get there? Was it not through the traditions of men?

This is an amazing statement, especially coming from someone who claims to read the Bible. If you can read the history of God’s relationship with mankind, and still believe that God is not the Mover in all that He has revealed to manking, I don’t know what to tell you. Your heart is apparently too hard to receive anything from the Catholic Church, including Christ.

That is my only 2 cents to the discussion because a time-line shows nothing but a time-line and if checked accurately there would be plenty of debate as to its accuracy but it is what it is, a time-line - so what.

We are ready for your debate! Would you like to take issue with the timeline? How about we start with when God appeared to Abraham. Which “traditions of man” do you think started at that time? Do you believe that circumcision is a tradition of man?

I wonder if Peter and Jesus were standing in St Peter's Square what would go through their minds as they looked around.  I do not know if they would be pleased or disgusted. I don't know.

What could there possibly be that they would find disgusting? Do you think Jesus found the Temple in Jerusalem “disgusting”?

 

[brb3]

We are ready for your debate! Would you like to take issue with the timeline? How about we start with when God appeared to Abraham. Which “traditions of man” do you think started at that time?

This should be informative …

 

[brb3]

c. 85 - John written

c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation

There is very good evidence that Revelation came first … probably in 66-67 AD, then John wrote his Gospel in late 70’s / 80’s, finally he wrote his 3 letters just prior to his death … in early/mid 90’s.

 

[guanophore]

I agree that rituals have a place in the church Jesus is building, but all rituals must be tested to be in accord with the revelation God has given man to have any relevance to God and the Pharisees got to the point where their traditions and rituals offended God. So if the ritual passes the standards of Scripture then celebrate. God cares about the internals, not the externals.

You are functioning on a false premise Pat. You seem to believe that the Church is “bible based” but it is not. Modern ecclesial communities have chosen to extract their faith from scripture because they are separated from the Apostolic Succession. The Church was founded by Christ, upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. All the doctrine given to the Apostles was complete prior to a single word of the NT being written.

Sometime when you are feeling very honest about learning your spiritual family history, I urge you to attend a synagogue service. I was amazed at how the Divine Liturgy follows the pattern precisely, with the inclusion of the Eucharist. The synagogue service is “ritual”. Are you suggesting that the pattern of religious practice followed by Jesus and the Apostles is not valid?

The Apostles always went to the synagogues first, and they continued to worship in the synagogues on Sabbath until they were ejected from them around the time the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. We can already read in the book of Acts how the Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. They simply had their own service, and followed the same liturgy that they had used all their lives. When the faith was taken to the Gentiles, this same pattern was followed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Nice to see you on this thread.

I do not want to ruin anyone’s expectations … but, both Tammy and Pat De claimed to have left and will read or post no more… I do not have a clue what really motivated them to come in, pronounce their misconceptions and then depart, claiming either our inability to answer their questions or they were on the wrong site. It appears to me that they were certainly not interested in any meaningful dialogue.

Tammy appears to be the saddest case of the two. She appears to lack no only a basic knowledge of the Faith she cliams to hold, but lacks basic skills in solving long-standing problems that have been eating away at her for many years.

While kindness and compassion may have some impact - everything depends on a person’s willingness to be open. Both of these people had to apply to CAF to get on - and at the first hint that others do not agree with them - they flee. My guess is that there are some lurkers out there with similar problems and a history of poor choices. From what I have read of the response to previous posts, no one condemned them or wish them to lose their souls. The focus is to bring all to Christ. So, if you are lurking and have a desire to ‘speak up’ and be heard - now would be a good time…

God bless

Most of our perceptions are influenced by our own prejudices. This question actually says more about you than it does about the Church.

This is an amazing statement, especially coming from someone who claims to read the Bible. If you can read the history of God’s relationship with mankind, and still believe that God is not the Mover in all that He has revealed to manking, I don’t know what to tell you. Your heart is apparently too hard to receive anything from the Catholic Church, including Christ.

We are ready for your debate! Would you like to take issue with the timeline? How about we start with when God appeared to Abraham. Which “traditions of man” do you think started at that time? Do you believe that circumcision is a tradition of man?

What could there possibly be that they would find disgusting? Do you think Jesus found the Temple in Jerusalem “disgusting”?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3.

Please provide your references for this timeline on John you have presented.

Thanks

God bless

There is very good evidence that Revelation came first … probably in 66-67 AD, then John wrote his Gospel in late 70’s / 80’s, finally he wrote his 3 letters just prior to his death … in early/mid 90’s.

 

[brb3]

Please provide your references for this timeline on John you have presented.

Google [EARLY DATING OF REVELATION] ---- for full list of sources.

But, two recent books that summarize the crucial historical data are :

RAPTURE, by David B. Currie [2003]
BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL - DATING THE BOOK OF REVELATION, by Kenneth L. Gentry [1998]

I’ve loaned my 2 books above to Protestants … and they are blown away with the prophetic meaning of all Biblical books of prophesy [Revelation, Daniel, Zephaniah, Matthew, etc]… and also the history that supports the dating of John’s writings.

Currie’s book establishes the late dating of Rev. is poorly supported and is ripe with error. Any Pre-Trib Protestant will give up their indoctrinations after reading RAPTURE, by Currie.