"A sin is a sin is a sin."

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I wasn’t accusing anyone in particular. I was just trying to explain why many church bodies (mine included) don’t find value in distinguishing between sins.
I don’t think there’s much value in it, either, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to posit that there exists a hierarchy of sins. It seems to be a natural fit. For example, Churchianity, as some call it, teaches that we are to be disgusted by drug abuse, smoking, drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, pornography, cursing, homosexual behavior and immodest dress – but we can remain unmoved when it comes to gossip, greed, selfishness, materialism, unforgiveness, racism, envy, or pride.

If there is a hierarchy of sins then I’d suggest that pride is the worst sin. C.S. Lewis devotes a whole chapter to it in Mere Christianity wherein he asserts that pride is the “Great Sin” and goes on to describe it as “spiritual cancer.” To me, that’s a very vivid image. It brings to my mind a visualization of pride slowly eating into a person with the result that the person gradually becomes his or her own god.

There are at least two places in the Bible that imply a hierarchy of sins. They are 1 John 5:16–17 and John 19:11. And there’s no doubt that it’s difficult to sustain the view that all sins are the same. Such a stance taken to its logical conclusion will result in the declaration that God sees no difference between the life Mother Teresa led and the one Joseph Stalin led. To suggest something like that is an insult to God because it implies that God has no sense of justice. Surely, the desire for equity that we find within ourselves – for example, the notion that murder is worse than forgetting to fast – comes from God? If so, when we display a sense of fairness or justice and when we are appalled by unfairness or injustice we are reflecting the fact that we’re made in God’s image.

It might reasonably be supposed that Saint Paul believed in a hierarchy of sins. He suggested that he was the worst of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). It can at least be inferred that he had an acute awareness of his own sins brought about by his God–given sense of justice.

Although I don’t object to the notion of a hierarchy of sins I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest a hierarchy of consequences, as does the Catholic Church with its delineation of sins into two separate categories of mortal and venial. That seems to me to be going too far. I see a difference between justice and judgment. Both are God’s prerogative but the Bible tells us that mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13b). It doesn’t say that mercy triumphs over justice. God’s mercy upon the greater – and even the greatest – sinner in no way intrudes upon God’s justice. God’s justice identifies the sin as great or greater. But who would be reckless enough to suggest that God’s mercy is not greater than a list of the most awful sins a human being could possibly imagine?

I also think there’s a difference between making a judgment about an action or deed and passing judgment on a person or persons. It is doubtless right and proper for us to inquire into the former and then draw a conclusion i.e. decide whether or not there is a hierarchy of sins – but I think the latter is entirely the province of God. I trust that He is powerfully merciful and that His judgments are tempered with love and understanding for our human nature, which He shared with us so we can know that He fully understands us.

By the way, the comparison between Mother Teresa and Stalin that I made earlier is an historical judgment of a life lived for God versus a life lived for self. Most people see the contrast and obviously God does, too – so I guess the theological question is whether the advocacy of God’s Son merits grace sufficient for a Stalin, if Stalin repents? Or, to phrase the question in the manner of a laborer in the vineyard: How come these less–deserving latecomers are being given the same deal as me?

It’s probably safe to affirm that questions like these will not be definitively answered in this life because the element of grace that is intrinsic to God’s way of working must necessarily remain mysterious and unfathomable to us. Perhaps, then, as far as sin is concerned, there is no need to inquire beyond the responses the Lord gave when the teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery.

To the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, He said:

If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.

And to the woman, He said:

Go now and leave your life of sin.

Q.E.D.

In conclusion, I should like to make it known that this is my last post on Catholic Answers Forums. I logged on here for the first time almost year ago at which time I was an Evangelical Christian without a church home inquiring into Catholicism. During the last twelve months, I’ve spent most of my time in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and I’d now like to acknowledge that I’ve received cordial and helpful responses to my questions from people in different faith communities, which I very much appreciate and so would like to thank them from the bottom of my heart. However, despite the strong case for Catholicism, I found myself compelled by the truth claims of Holy Orthodoxy and some months ago I become an Orthodox catechumen in the OCA. I hope to be received into the Orthodox Church next Pascha, which will be on Sunday, April 4, 2010.

God bless all CAF posters, especially those who’ve helped me along in my search for truth. 🙂 😃 👍 :bounce:

Gratefully,
Mick
:sad_bye:
 
Why would you have to leave Mick, just because you will be entering the Orthodox church?
 
In conclusion, I should like to make it known that this is my last post on Catholic Answers Forums. I logged on here for the first time almost year ago at which time I was an Evangelical Christian without a church home inquiring into Catholicism. During the last twelve months, I’ve spent most of my time in the Non–Catholic Religions forum and I’d now like to acknowledge that I’ve received cordial and helpful responses to my questions from people in different faith communities, which I very much appreciate and so would like to thank them from the bottom of my heart. However, despite the strong case for Catholicism, I found myself compelled by the truth claims of Holy Orthodoxy and some months ago I become an Orthodox catechumen in the OCA. I hope to be received into the Orthodox Church next Pascha, which will be on Sunday, April 4, 2010.

God bless all CAF posters, especially those who’ve helped me along in my search for truth. 🙂 😃 👍 :bounce:

Gratefully,
Mick
:sad_bye:
God bless you, Mick, for all the help and encouragement you have in turn provided me and surely others over your time here. May you be received into Holy Orthodoxy and lead a long and faithful life in service of God.
 

In conclusion, I should like to make it known that this is my last post on Catholic Answers Forums. …
However, despite the strong case for Catholicism, I found myself compelled by the truth claims of Holy Orthodoxy and some months ago I become an Orthodox catechumen in the OCA.
Non-sequitor! Plenty of Eastern christians post here. Why not you?
 
Non-sequitor! Plenty of Eastern christians post here. Why not you?
Why would you have to leave Mick, just because you will be entering the Orthodox church?
Well, in a way. This is a Catholic website, after all, and its primary function is to promote Catholicism. During the months that I was seriously considering the Catholic Church it made sense to me to be in dialogue with Catholics here. However, in deciding for Holy Orthodoxy I also decided against Catholicism so when I made that decision my original purpose for being here vanished. Moreover, whereas when I was in “inquiry mode” I could correctly be described as having an open mind, once I’d made a decision wholeheartedly to embrace Orthodox Christianity I was no longer neutral as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. It follows, then, that if I intend to discuss spiritual matters on–line (which I don’t intend to spend an inordinate amount of time doing as I’ve discovered it can be quite addictive) it makes more sense for me to go to an Orthodox website where I can “be myself,” as it were. 🙂

Peace,
Mick
👍
 
God bless you, Mick, for all the help and encouragement you have in turn provided me and surely others over your time here. May you be received into Holy Orthodoxy and lead a long and faithful life in service of God.
Thanks, dzheremi,

You are very thoughtful and very gracious.

Sincerely,
Mick
👍
 
And yet when someone steals their lunch they are annoyed. When someone steals their car, they expect legal action. And when someone kills their child they want a life sentence.

No life sentence for a stolen lunch, and they say that all sin is equal.

It’s another case of saying one thing and living another. I see this a lot with liberals. They say that no one should be homeless, and yet these rich liberals never offer a room in their own home to a single homeless person. No. What they suggest instead is that others live what they will only say. Put up homeless shelters in someone else’s backyard, is their answer to homelessness. How long will it be until someone interviewing these people asks them why they don’t errect a small shelter on their own acreage?

They believe that it’s OK to do as you please, but look at how they raise their own children. Do you see them sending their kids to inner city, failing schools? In my experience, people vote liberal and live conservative. They aren’t in debt. They raise their children to be responsible citizens. They expect their kids to abide by traditional values. One very liberal woman I know was devastated when she found out one of her college age kids was sexually active. She had spent years talking about how liberal views are better than conservative–how conservative views are mean, even. Liberal views, apparently, are better for other people’s kids, but not your own. It’s a farce.

The bottom line is that they don’t believe what they’re saying. They don’t really believe that all sins are equal.
Well put!

I wish I’d written my post to specifally address this one belief.
 
Simeon Hovey;5931979:
Lately I’ve been attending a church of an international denomination, I will only say that it’s a reformation era church, that holds to the belief, or ecclesia*, that all sins are equal.

Simeon,

Are all sins are equal???. Matthew 16:27, is quoted as follows: (Taken from the Holy Bible, Standard Version) “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done”. The New American Bible gives the following quote: “For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct”. A Protestant Bible uses the word “reward” instead of “repay” and the word “”works” instead of “conduct” above, but the meanings are the same. So it appears that there may be different rewards in Heaven depending on how we lived our lives on earth.

But you know, what is really important is our acceptance into Heaven. Heaven will bring us the ultimate in happiness. I could see where perhaps Mother Theresa and some other Saints/martyrs, and of course the Pope and other leaders of Christian faiths, may receive a higher reward/repayment for the good works and sinless lives they lived while on earth - BUT but that won’t take away from the happiness we ALL will receive in Heaven. There are many truths we are not privileged to know, at this time, about Heaven, and everything I said above may not be the total facts. Here on earth we must rely on God’s Word in the Bible, our church teachings, and our ability to know right from wrong using the faculties given to us by God and as further developed by our church and Christian communities.
First I would like to thank everyone who took the time to write, this thread has attracted at least one person from the Bible study group I attend;therefore I think the group writing to this thread has done a good work. And you have all helped me with my original question. As always though, answers do bring up more questions. 👍

(Note: In the following Snnnn means Strongs dictionary reference number.)

As for MT 16:27 and the words repay or reward the Greek word is S591 apodidomi (pronounced ap-od-eed’-o-mee): from S575 and S1325; to give away, i.e. up, over, back, etc. (in various applications): --deliver (again), give (again), (re-)pay(-ment be made), perform, recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell, yield.

Apodidomi is a compound word; apo (S575) means, “it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc” and didomi (S1325) means to differentiate, remove, or discriminate. The word apodidomi, in this usage, is perhaps best translated as “render” to someone their due.

I agree that the only point that really matters is salvation; in the parable MT 20:1 -16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.” As the man hired more workers throughout the day those hired at the start of the day reasoned that they would be paid more for their greater work; instead at the end of the day they are all paid the same wage. I interpret this to mean that it doesn’t matter when someone becomes a Christian or how much they do the reward, Heaven, is the same for all.

Finally, I do not want to deprecate the Saints or people such as Mother Theresa which is why I think the following applies – “To whom much is given much is expected.” This is what I think applies in this case and is supported by MT 20:1 - 16. At least that’s the way God has given me the light to see things by, as always I’m open to the thoughts of others because this is how I learn.

And thanks again to everyone.
 
In the NT this is often translated as assembly or church.
all sins are the same?

then a person should not feel any difference between being the victim of a verbal tirade and say, murder…

oh freaking please…

is all i have to say that stupid notion.
 
Venial and mortal sins is believed by Jews, Catholics, the only group that seems to deny it is your average Protestant, some PRotestants do believe in it, like Luther, as the MS fellow said, and just like Luther counted most mortal sins of believers as venial. The Average Protestant only believes all sins are equal because the Catholic Church distinguishes, as the bible does.
“That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”—Luke 12:47-8 <–ignorance of a commandment mitigated punishment
They devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. They will receive a very severe condemnation [most bibles here read ‘greater damnation’]."—Luke 20:47** <–The Pharisees are Jews, since the have knowledge of the Law and sin they will be punished more harshly with greater damnation**
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.—1 John 5:16
It should also be noted some Protestant bible commentaries such as Matthew Henry’s, a Calvinist, does acknowledge there are greater and less sins as he writes in his commentary of John 19:11:
By this it appears that all sins are not equal, but some more heinous than others; some comparatively as gnats, others as camels; some as motes in the eyes, others as beams; some as pence, others as pounds
Luther erroneous taught the opposite of what the bible teaches concerning believers sinning, the bible says when a believer sins its worse than an infidel sins:
1 Timothy 5:8–And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Here St Paul says if you’re a deadbeat that refuses to help family out, you might as well be an apostate, can this person be saved if St Paul says by this act they “deny the faith” and are “worse than an unbeliever”??

St John says similar:
1 John 3:17–If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him?
These show that a person’s faith is not simply an acknowledge of Christ, it ones resolve to do God’s will as the Hebrew word faith suggests.

A believer that commits any mortal sin, not just apostasy is liable for damnation:
whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.-Matthew 5:22
 
Interesting. See I would have thought murder was a worse sin in God’s eyes than calling someone ‘Raca.’ Jesus seems to agree.
Murder is a worse sin, but the point Jesus is making is that murder is not the only way to violate the commandment against murder, it can also be violated by slandering someone by calling them raqa (a stupid persons who deserves to be spat upon), or simply by hating someone as St John makes the point of:
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.–1 John 3:15
Hate is the source of murder, its causes murder, St John obviously is not saying its a literal murder.
Once again, I think a wife would agree that she would rather her husband check out a cute waitress than actually sleep with her. Yet Jesus seems to disagree once again.
Again lust is the source, you would not commit adultery if you did not lust first, Jesus is saying the commandment is prohibiting only sex with another women, it includes lusting, some of the Pharisees, from what I heard did not believe lustful thoughts to be sin. Jesus also says marrying a divorcee is adultery, though it does not seem the law would have technically classified them as one.
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
So a person who steals is as guilty as a person who murders. May not make sense to us, but we exist in a slightly different context than God does.
In the Context of St James he is summarizing the Whole Law as one commandment:

However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”** you are doing well.**

James was saying just about any violation of the law was a violation of love your neighbor
 
Regarding [the afore mentioned example of] divorce and todays “No fault” divorce laws; I wanted to stay in my marriage* for the sake of the children yet my spouse served divorce papers on me and I had no say about it. I wonder how the Lord will judge my life because of this? :confused: I’m not saying my wife did so without cause, my shortcomings were many. However, I wasn’t the one who was cheating.

Whether or not I would have consented to a divorce when the children were grown is an unknowable and possibly moot point, but I would have been more willing then. :confused:
  • I was very unhappy in the marriage and, other than the children, often lamented that I was wasting my life with her because our differences were so great. I was into authors such as Dostoevsky and rigorous out door activities, she was into the house, shopping and eating. We married when she was 17YO and I was 20YO, I was in the military and would soon be going to South East Asia and Viet Nam where I committed some of the worst sins possible. In the line of military duty and otherwise.
 
And yet when someone steals their lunch they are annoyed. When someone steals their car, they expect legal action. And when someone kills their child they want a life sentence.

No life sentence for a stolen lunch, and they say that all sin is equal.
God’s punishment is not the same as secular punishment. Secular punishment can demand a killer be put to death - God’s mercy can mean that person is sitting by His right hand in heaven. Saying all sin is equal doesnt mean one demands a life sentence for stealing a lunch.
and yet these rich liberals never offer a room in their own home to a single homeless person.
Not one single catholic in my area, and I do know them, offers a hobo a room either 🤷 And some years ago, there was almost a riot when it was found out a house, a big house, in a nice area, was actually a homeless womens shelter. The locals, catholics to a man, had the place shut down as they didnt want those kinda people in their 'hood. They reasoned that these occupants would bring their unsavory partners to the area which they asumed would include drug deals, and so on and accused some of the occupants of being prostitutes. But the fact the building had been subjected to so much publicity, it meant the charity that ran it decided the women there were at risk and shut the place down. Its now an office and conference facility after they applied for a change of use. 🤷
Do you see them sending their kids to inner city, failing schools?
Would anyone send their kids to a failing school, if they didnt have to 🤷
The bottom line is that they don’t believe what they’re saying.
That can be applied to a lot of people, including catholics.
 
  • I was very unhappy in the marriage and, other than the children, often lamented that I was wasting my life with her because our differences were so great. I was into authors such as Dostoevsky and rigorous out door activities, she was into the house, shopping and eating. We married when she was 17YO and I was 20YO, I was in the military and would soon be going to South East Asia and Viet Nam where I committed some of the worst sins possible. In the line of military duty and otherwise.
I hope this doesn’t sound harsh to say but it sounds like you reaped what you sewed.

If you want to know a perspective about the restoration movement from the perspective of folks like myself that converted to Catholicism from that faith here’s a link to talk to some of us about this issue in depth. All we ask is that you come in peace and treat people with respect. We’ve lived that life and it is very harsh in that faith. You’ve just seen the surface. My FIL was a bishop/elder before he died and so are 2 of my BIL. The rest of the men have been or are deacons. I was on my way to becoming a preacher in that faith. I fell away from the Catholic Church after coming to believe, through their proselytizing, that I’d certainly burn in hell if I didn’t convert to their beliefs. Now my entire family believes we’ll all certain perish into the eternal flames of hell. We pray for them all the time. My FIL was the most Christian man I’ve ever known, and had he been alive during our conversion just a few years ago it would have certainly crushed him to see his baby daughter leave the faith of her youth, which she did freely on her own. In fact I originally wanted to become Orthodox because I couldn’t see how anyone could possibly want to become Catholic knowing what I knew about it. But the more I studied the more I realized I’m Catholic, Latin rite. I embraced my faith once again, embarrassed for ever having left her and now understand where I went wrong.

I wish you well. My father’s life and family were destroyed as a result of Vietnam… I can attest to it personally.

May the peace of Christ be with you always.
a former church restorationist…
 
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