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theropod
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I have to admit, I was drawn to Calvinism for a while. It is at least internally consistent.
I think the reason I like it most was that it provided a way to have eternal security by faith, and the faith that saved was one that produced works in the Perseverance of the Saints. Thereby satisfying James 2:17. I also liked that I could explain someone’s falling away from the faith or absolute lack of fruits by presuming them never saved in the first place.
One thing I never could get away from was I was supposed to have certainty that if I was saved, God would see me through to the end. This is demonstrated by your works. That’s how you know. This is source of the so called “Protestant Work Ethic”. The problem is, if you keep on having to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” THERE IS NO SECURITY IN THIS!
The conclusion this brings me to is that the argument of “faith vs. works” between Calvinists and Catholics is semantics. At least in practice. Theologians can talk all day about how significant the difference are, but I don’t think Christians should live their life differently based on how they understand this. Real life, on the ground, there is no excuse for faith without works.
But yeah, God creating people just to send them to Hell doesn’t quite sit right either.
I think the reason I like it most was that it provided a way to have eternal security by faith, and the faith that saved was one that produced works in the Perseverance of the Saints. Thereby satisfying James 2:17. I also liked that I could explain someone’s falling away from the faith or absolute lack of fruits by presuming them never saved in the first place.
One thing I never could get away from was I was supposed to have certainty that if I was saved, God would see me through to the end. This is demonstrated by your works. That’s how you know. This is source of the so called “Protestant Work Ethic”. The problem is, if you keep on having to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” THERE IS NO SECURITY IN THIS!
The conclusion this brings me to is that the argument of “faith vs. works” between Calvinists and Catholics is semantics. At least in practice. Theologians can talk all day about how significant the difference are, but I don’t think Christians should live their life differently based on how they understand this. Real life, on the ground, there is no excuse for faith without works.
But yeah, God creating people just to send them to Hell doesn’t quite sit right either.
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Memaw
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Catholics believe, Faith AND Works, NOT faith vs. works. Very BIG difference. God Bless, Memaw
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SalusaSecondus
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Calvinism offers no peace because it cannot offer it. It forces one to look towards their own works and not toward the cross. And that always leads to arrogance or despair. That’s why it’s so hard to find a Calvinist without a major axe to grind.
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theropod
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Noted. But in practical terms, so does the Calvinist.
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QNDNNDQDCE
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Catholics believe that God predestines people to heaven from eternity too. That in and of itself is not a big difference between Calvinism and Catholicism.
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theropod
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Yeah, one could find a lot of similarities in what Aquinas wrote with what Calvin wrote. Of course, they were both drawing from Augustine.
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Starwarsfan2
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The Reformed tradition does offer the Gospel despite its Many errors , although Lutherans teach the Gospel more purely, dont just bash other churches saying they offer nothing , when they also have the Word and Sacraments .
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heidi_storage
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The answer is that if God did such a thing, it would be right and holy.
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adamhovey1988
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Two things the first one is Lutherans are reformed they came out of the Reformation. The second is that they do not teach a more pure gospel than Calvinists because they are just as flawed just in different areas. Of course we have Luther to blame for this whole mess I’m really curious how you came to this conclusion because you shall note that only Catholics can claim to have the most pure gospel because Catholics have the only claim to preach the gospel fully
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theropod
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Note Reformed, not reformed. There is a difference.
Surely you can see how circular this is.
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Starwarsfan2
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From our standpoint , the church can err as the Roman Catholic Church did , therefore the Churches of the Reformation can claim to teach the gospel more purely , second point Lutherans are not Reformed ,the Reformation is multiple movements , not one , Reformed is the real name of Calvinism (a derogatory name ) there is a distinction between the two Churches, Third Luther was a Reformer not a schismatic ( not intentional at least ) , he is not to blame for the extreme division( this mess as you termed it ) caused in more times by modernist heretics .
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MaryT777
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MaryT777
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Luther was a heretic according to the Catholic Church and excommunicated as such. Lutherans don’t teach the gospel more purely. They have no claim to infallibly do so.
Plus they are divided in and of themselves into synods such as LCMS, WELS, ELCA with no altar and pulpit fellowship between the synods. That’s what the pure gospel leads to?
Division? Why is there such division in the Lutheran Church if you are teaching the pure gospel?
Mary.
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Starwarsfan2
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MaryT777
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Starwarsfan2
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Starwarsfan2;13253691:
We can define it , although , I’d rather we stay on topic .
So , another thread would be appropriate to continue.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
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Calvinists I know don’t believe in post-faith works as per Scriptures at all. As far as they are concerned they have got it made.
God can understand the apparent paradox between foreknowing, leaving individuals young & old, able and disabled, in any country and in any age of world history, to their free will, etc, and an utterly enigmatic sense of “predestined” that is frankly like trying to nail a jelly to the wall.
God can understand the apparent paradox between foreknowing, leaving individuals young & old, able and disabled, in any country and in any age of world history, to their free will, etc, and an utterly enigmatic sense of “predestined” that is frankly like trying to nail a jelly to the wall.
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Starwarsfan2
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There official teaching states that works Are after salvation
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Kliska
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To the OP; I’ve read a direct Calvinist response to a parent who was wondering about the salvation of her children. The Calvinist was clear; they were either elect or not, and there we nothing either they or their mother could do for them. It was one of the most heartbreaking replies I’d ever read.
IMO, Five-point Calvinism logically turns into hyper-Calvinism.
IMO, Five-point Calvinism logically turns into hyper-Calvinism.
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