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majick275
Guest
- Status
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majick275
Guest
BJ Colbert:
If you are telling me that there are no answers to my questions that can be found in LDS doctrine then so be it. ( I admit to being skeptical about that though.) That would mean that any perceived conflict with Isaiah is only speculation.
My own answers on what LDS doctrine on these is most certainly aren’t authoratative as I am not LDS. The Catholic answers to these questions are to be found in the catechism of the catholic church. In summary though:
No, we do not have a literal Mother in Heaven. We are creations of God and not “offspring”. (Thus it should be obvious that her name isn’t Mary)
No God the Father does not have a Father.
If in fact the LDS church does not teach answers to any of these questions then I am very confused as to what they do teach regarding eternal progression. Consider for a moment…
Bless you BJ. I understand and accept your statement on the trinity as being LDS doctrine. My point is that does not answer any of the questions I posed. I believe that those are very relevant questions in any study of LDS beliefs as they (my opinion) not only touch on the nature of God but go to the whole purpose of the Gospel. i.e. Why is it so important to be sealed in the Temple, What does it really mean to be a forever family, What is Gods ultimate plan for me, What is exaltation, etc. All of these things hinge on what I asked.
If you are telling me that there are no answers to my questions that can be found in LDS doctrine then so be it. ( I admit to being skeptical about that though.) That would mean that any perceived conflict with Isaiah is only speculation.
My own answers on what LDS doctrine on these is most certainly aren’t authoratative as I am not LDS. The Catholic answers to these questions are to be found in the catechism of the catholic church. In summary though:
No, we do not have a literal Mother in Heaven. We are creations of God and not “offspring”. (Thus it should be obvious that her name isn’t Mary)
No God the Father does not have a Father.
If in fact the LDS church does not teach answers to any of these questions then I am very confused as to what they do teach regarding eternal progression. Consider for a moment…
- Does Heavenly Father have a Father? (and if so is He a God as well?)
- Will mortals from this Earth who reach the highest degree of Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom continue to have Children in the Celestial Kingdom? (if so will these children need to come down to earth or some other planet to receive physical bodies and work out their own salvation? if yes, who will be there savior? who will tempt them so that there is “opposition in all things”?)
- is(are) there (a) heavenly mother(s)? (if yes, is she a God/Goddess?)
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majick275
Guest
(Continued)
I understood the LDS position on this to be that God was once a mortal man with a father and a God and a savior and a tempter and that this has gone on forever. That exaltation meant that you join in this process and can thus become a God with children, savior and tempter of your own and that this will go on forever.
I understood the LDS position on this to be descriptive only of worthy males reaching exaltation and that the fate of worthy ladies is less well defined other than that they will be with their exalted husbands forever and will have children forever.
Those who are saved but not exalted go to one of the lesser kingdoms of glory as their earthly obedience to God merits. Those who knowingly, willfully reject God are cast out with Satan.
I guess I am trying to obtain enlightenment here as to what is true doctrine versus speculation. Please understand that from a Catholic perspective this appears very difficult. (numerous writings of LDS prophets have been claimed as personal opinions of those men rather than divine revelations) If it was simply a case of reading what LDS prophets (or even scriptures) said this would be easy. However, I can’t find the “official doctrine” of the LDS church in one easy to read instruction manual. So…I have asked here for a little help in that regard. This is so that we can discuss spiritual topics of possible interest to all from a factual start point.
This particular thread is a fine example of that. The average Catholic sees this scripture as validating the Catholic teachings on the nature of God. The average Catholic would find the PERCEIVED position of the LDS church to be incompatible with this. (at least on the surface) So rather than speak around each other due to misunderstandings, I was hoping to establish some mutually understood framework to this discussion.
I do thank you for your participation and interest so far. I know I keep repating myself but I just want to be very sure that either (as I believe BJ states) that there is no LDS doctrine on this OR (if there are doctrinal answers ) find out the answers to what I asked.
I understood the LDS position on this to be that God was once a mortal man with a father and a God and a savior and a tempter and that this has gone on forever. That exaltation meant that you join in this process and can thus become a God with children, savior and tempter of your own and that this will go on forever.
I understood the LDS position on this to be descriptive only of worthy males reaching exaltation and that the fate of worthy ladies is less well defined other than that they will be with their exalted husbands forever and will have children forever.
Those who are saved but not exalted go to one of the lesser kingdoms of glory as their earthly obedience to God merits. Those who knowingly, willfully reject God are cast out with Satan.
I guess I am trying to obtain enlightenment here as to what is true doctrine versus speculation. Please understand that from a Catholic perspective this appears very difficult. (numerous writings of LDS prophets have been claimed as personal opinions of those men rather than divine revelations) If it was simply a case of reading what LDS prophets (or even scriptures) said this would be easy. However, I can’t find the “official doctrine” of the LDS church in one easy to read instruction manual. So…I have asked here for a little help in that regard. This is so that we can discuss spiritual topics of possible interest to all from a factual start point.
This particular thread is a fine example of that. The average Catholic sees this scripture as validating the Catholic teachings on the nature of God. The average Catholic would find the PERCEIVED position of the LDS church to be incompatible with this. (at least on the surface) So rather than speak around each other due to misunderstandings, I was hoping to establish some mutually understood framework to this discussion.
I do thank you for your participation and interest so far. I know I keep repating myself but I just want to be very sure that either (as I believe BJ states) that there is no LDS doctrine on this OR (if there are doctrinal answers ) find out the answers to what I asked.
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Seeks_God
Guest
This is simply a question of need…or perspective.
Humanity has a basic need to share in God’s grace, Catholics receive God’s grace through living a Sacramental life. God does not need to receive his own grace, He IS his grace.
There is no need for God to be bound by something He is… Catholics also are not supposed to see the Sacraments as chains and harnasses that bind them, they are supposed to see the Sacraments as gifts from God.
SG
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Seeks_God
Guest
BYU-BOY -
The analogy of the U.S. Presidency as being similar to the ‘office’ of God is sacriligious to us Catholics for one reason and one reason only - you, a human being, is placing God in the role of a mortal man. We Catholics have only accepted God as man when He came to us as His Son Jesus Christ. This is a monstrous difference detween God as an ‘office’ and God as THE Supreme Being. This is the point where Catholics struggle with Mormon beliefs - the whole concept that we can be ‘like’ God is the very foundation of pride that Satan tempted Adam & Eve (I do realize that LDS beliefs holds an entriely different interpretation of the Fall). God forced Adam & Eve from the garden because of this idea that they could be ‘like’ gods or become gods.
Would we accept Him if He were to reveal Himself as a mortal again? Absolutely, but our unchanging God has already promised (a promise we don’t question and hence why we struggle with any other prophecies made by people after the Apostles) He would come back to us as Jesus Christ when the day of Judgement arrives.
I also don’t think Catholics, as a whole, hold spite for protestants, lutherans, JW’s or other Christian denominations the same way they do for the LDS faith. I think it’s this whole concept of ‘God-making’ that Catholics struggle accepting LDS as Christians the same way they do other denominations.
SG
p.s. - Please don’t see my response as an attack, I’m trying to clarify some of our Catholic beliefs.
The analogy of the U.S. Presidency as being similar to the ‘office’ of God is sacriligious to us Catholics for one reason and one reason only - you, a human being, is placing God in the role of a mortal man. We Catholics have only accepted God as man when He came to us as His Son Jesus Christ. This is a monstrous difference detween God as an ‘office’ and God as THE Supreme Being. This is the point where Catholics struggle with Mormon beliefs - the whole concept that we can be ‘like’ God is the very foundation of pride that Satan tempted Adam & Eve (I do realize that LDS beliefs holds an entriely different interpretation of the Fall). God forced Adam & Eve from the garden because of this idea that they could be ‘like’ gods or become gods.
Would we accept Him if He were to reveal Himself as a mortal again? Absolutely, but our unchanging God has already promised (a promise we don’t question and hence why we struggle with any other prophecies made by people after the Apostles) He would come back to us as Jesus Christ when the day of Judgement arrives.
I also don’t think Catholics, as a whole, hold spite for protestants, lutherans, JW’s or other Christian denominations the same way they do for the LDS faith. I think it’s this whole concept of ‘God-making’ that Catholics struggle accepting LDS as Christians the same way they do other denominations.
SG
p.s. - Please don’t see my response as an attack, I’m trying to clarify some of our Catholic beliefs.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Our Father in Heaven is perfect, However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He has said, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man” Moses 1:39
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people.
That is a explicit as Church Doctrine gets for becoming gods(little g) in the hereafter.
Now, is this what you were asking? I hope so because I copied it word for word from a book called Gospel Principles, used as a lesson book in 1997, and I have a bit of writer’s cramp now.
I know this all sounds wacky to Catholics, so I do expect the normal ridicule and laughter. But, please try to restrain yourselves a little bit. Just realize that it is as serious to us as your doctrines are to you. Some of your doctrines sound just as wacky to us, but we try not to make fun of them.
BJ
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people.
- They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
- They will become gods(little g) (not God)
3.They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children witll have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4.They will recieve a fulness of joy. - They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and jesus Christ have___all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. Joseph Fielding Smith wrote "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increas in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them.
- We must be baptized by emersion and confirmed a member to the Church of Jesus Christ.
2.We must received the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. - We must receive the temple endowment.
- We must be married for time and eternity in one of the temples on earth.
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to___ - Love and worship God.
- Love our neighbors.
3.Repent of our wrongdoings. - Live the law of chastity.
- Pay honest tithes and offerings
6.Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
7.`Speak with truth always.
8.Obey the Word of Wisdom
9.Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
10 keep the Sabbath day holy. - Atten our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
- Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
- Have family and individual prayers every day.
- Honor our parents.
- Teach the gospel to others by word and by example.
- Study the scriptures.
- Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.
That is a explicit as Church Doctrine gets for becoming gods(little g) in the hereafter.
Now, is this what you were asking? I hope so because I copied it word for word from a book called Gospel Principles, used as a lesson book in 1997, and I have a bit of writer’s cramp now.
I know this all sounds wacky to Catholics, so I do expect the normal ridicule and laughter. But, please try to restrain yourselves a little bit. Just realize that it is as serious to us as your doctrines are to you. Some of your doctrines sound just as wacky to us, but we try not to make fun of them.
BJ
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Tmaque
Guest
BJ Colbert:
What is meant by gods(little g)? Will gods be omnipotent, all knowing, omnipresent? In short, what is the difference between god & God?
BJ,Our Father in Heaven is perfect, However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He has said, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man” Moses 1:39
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people.
Requirements for exaltation are that we must receive certain ordinances:
- They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
- They will become gods(little g) (not God)
3.They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children witll have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4.They will recieve a fulness of joy.- They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and jesus Christ have___all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. Joseph Fielding Smith wrote "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increas in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them.
If we can follow all of these things in our lives we can expect to come home to the presence of our Father in Heaven and hear him say to us “Well done:…thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord”(Matthew 25:23)
- We must be baptized by emersion and confirmed a member to the Church of Jesus Christ.
2.We must received the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.- We must receive the temple endowment.
- We must be married for time and eternity in one of the temples on earth.
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to___- Love and worship God.
- Love our neighbors.
3.Repent of our wrongdoings.- Live the law of chastity.
- Pay honest tithes and offerings
6.Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
7.`Speak with truth always.
8.Obey the Word of Wisdom
9.Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
10 keep the Sabbath day holy.- Atten our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
- Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
- Have family and individual prayers every day.
- Honor our parents.
- Teach the gospel to others by word and by example.
- Study the scriptures.
- Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.
That is a explicit as Church Doctrine gets for becoming gods(little g) in the hereafter.
Now, is this what you were asking? I hope so because I copied it word for word from a book called Gospel Principles, used as a lesson book in 1997, and I have a bit of writer’s cramp now.
I know this all sounds wacky to Catholics, so I do expect the normal ridicule and laughter. But, please try to restrain yourselves a little bit. Just realize that it is as serious to us as your doctrines are to you. Some of your doctrines sound just as wacky to us, but we try not to make fun of them.
What is meant by gods(little g)? Will gods be omnipotent, all knowing, omnipresent? In short, what is the difference between god & God?
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majick275
Guest
BJ Colbert:
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
It does not say these children will come to earth and receive bodies and worship their father as we worship God. You say that, but that is just your opinion of what possibly follows, being eternal families. We do not expound on anything but what I printed. You added your own interpretation of what I said.
Also, if you read all of the things that becoming exalted entails, it would indeed be difficult to attain the level of God(big G) So, we do not say we will attain the level of God, only god(little g) We do not say we will rule our own planets, we do not know what comes after becoming eternal families in heaven and in the presence of Our Father in Heaven.
Again, we believe in One God as it states in Isaiah, so no conflict at all. None of us are gods yet, and the chances of becoming so are pretty far off and pretty slim with the sins we have to overcome to get even close.
What are the requirements to become a saint in the Catholic Church? I would say it would be comparable, and just insert saint in your interpretation of god for LDS beliefs. That is as close as we could come to the same meaning. The only difference being that you do not believe in eternal marriage, so the saints in your church are single for eternity, but they are exalted beyond the average man. The same is for us, we call these exalted beings gods(little g) and they are married and have families with them in God’s presence for eternity.
I’m glad you accepted my answer, and we can finally lay it to rest.
I hope
BJ
Also, if you read all of the things that becoming exalted entails, it would indeed be difficult to attain the level of God(big G) So, we do not say we will attain the level of God, only god(little g) We do not say we will rule our own planets, we do not know what comes after becoming eternal families in heaven and in the presence of Our Father in Heaven.
Again, we believe in One God as it states in Isaiah, so no conflict at all. None of us are gods yet, and the chances of becoming so are pretty far off and pretty slim with the sins we have to overcome to get even close.
What are the requirements to become a saint in the Catholic Church? I would say it would be comparable, and just insert saint in your interpretation of god for LDS beliefs. That is as close as we could come to the same meaning. The only difference being that you do not believe in eternal marriage, so the saints in your church are single for eternity, but they are exalted beyond the average man. The same is for us, we call these exalted beings gods(little g) and they are married and have families with them in God’s presence for eternity.
I’m glad you accepted my answer, and we can finally lay it to rest.
I hope
BJ
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majick275
Guest
BJ Colbert:
I accept your answer as reflecting your own beliefs but I certainly don’t see how this post could possibly lay htis to rest.It does not say these children will come to earth and receive bodies and worship their father as we worship God. You say that, but that is just your opinion of what possibly follows, being eternal families. We do not expound on anything but what I printed. You added your own interpretation of what I said.
Whoa…It says that the relationship will be the SAME as between us and our heavenly Father. What does that mean to you?
Also, if you read all of the things that becoming exalted entails, it would indeed be difficult to attain the level of God(big G) So, we do not say we will attain the level of God, only god(little g) We do not say we will rule our own planets, we do not know what comes after becoming eternal families in heaven and in the presence of Our Father in Heaven.
Please…It makes it obvious.
Again, we believe in One God as it states in Isaiah, so no conflict at all. None of us are gods yet, and the chances of becoming so are pretty far off and pretty slim with the sins we have to overcome to get even close.
How can you say that when it is CLEARGod had a father.
What are the requirements to become a saint in the Catholic Church?
Irrelevant.
I would say it would be comparable, and just insert saint in your interpretation of god for LDS beliefs. That is as close as we could come to the same meaning.
Totally disagree.
The only difference being that you do not believe in eternal marriage, so the saints in your church are single for eternity, but they are exalted beyond the average man. The same is for us, we call these exalted beings gods(little g) and they are married and have families with them in God’s presence for eternity.
Big Difference.
I’m glad you accepted my answer, and we can finally lay it to rest.
I hope
S
Seeks_God
Guest
BJ Colbert:
BJ Colbert:
BJ Colbert:
SG
um…what exactly are you saying? Are you implying that humans have the possibility of becoming gods, but won’t because they are too sinful? If that’s the case then it seems (clarify it, please) you are saying it is impossible to follow mormon doctrine.
BJ Colbert:
What interpretation should we have to this belief? It seems that according to number 3, that if our ‘spirit’ children were to have the same relationship we have with our God, then the circumstances, situations or environment would be the same…i.e. our spirit children would be mortal and we would be divine in order to have the same relationship we have with God. You assume we (Catholics) are interpreting this for ourselves, then help us understand what we are supposed to believe. To us (Catholics), this reeks of Satan’s original temptation.
BJ Colbert:
We still don’t equate our saints as gods - i.e. we don’t worship them and I would still assume that many Catholics don’t ‘exalt’ them like we do God. I understand that you hold God at a higher heirarchical place in heaven then you do your gods, but there is still no rough equivalent of calling saints gods…we still recognize their inferiority to God. We could not insert the word saint for ‘god’ into your beliefs, because we still do not see any correlation to make saints gods…What are the requirements to become a saint in the Catholic Church? I would say it would be comparable, and just insert saint in your interpretation of god for LDS beliefs. That is as close as we could come to the same meaning. The only difference being that you do not believe in eternal marriage, so the saints in your church are single for eternity, but they are exalted beyond the average man. The same is for us, we call these exalted beings gods(little g) and they are married and have families with them in God’s presence for eternity.
I’m glad you accepted my answer, and we can finally lay it to rest.
I hope
SG
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majick275
Guest
BTW…not so difficult to achieve exaltation in LDS system. According to Doctrine and Covenants if you receive your endowments and are sealed in the temple then unless you shed innocent blood the worst case scenario has you being subjected to the buffetings of satan for the rest of your mortal life after which you get your exaltation. (D&C 132:26)
I absolutely can not understand how to deal with the cognitive dissonance required to believe in eternal progression as outlined in the LDS Church doctrine and at the same time state that you really believe that there was no other God formed before ours nor will there be one after.
Isaiah doesn’t talk about the God(s) people worship…He (in this verse at least) tells us that God himself declares There never has been any other God nor will there ever be…not one.
How can anyone possibly look at these two doctrines and believe that they are in perfect harmony with each other?
Any way you slice it I see eternal progression as the exact idea that Satan tempted Eve with and thus not of God. (I realize that there is a significant difference in how LDS view the fall of Adam and Eve…but still)
Even in LDS sources I find God declaring that there is, has been and forever will be only one God and Satan tempting people with the chance to be like God, as the Gods, etc. (even in the Temple teachings)
So was Isaiah mistranslated? (JST doesn’t change this verses meaning)
Do we just misunderstand this verse?
Or is it possible that we misunderstand LDS doctrine?
…or could this Doctrine be false and LDS wrong to teach it?
I absolutely can not understand how to deal with the cognitive dissonance required to believe in eternal progression as outlined in the LDS Church doctrine and at the same time state that you really believe that there was no other God formed before ours nor will there be one after.
Isaiah doesn’t talk about the God(s) people worship…He (in this verse at least) tells us that God himself declares There never has been any other God nor will there ever be…not one.
How can anyone possibly look at these two doctrines and believe that they are in perfect harmony with each other?
Any way you slice it I see eternal progression as the exact idea that Satan tempted Eve with and thus not of God. (I realize that there is a significant difference in how LDS view the fall of Adam and Eve…but still)
Even in LDS sources I find God declaring that there is, has been and forever will be only one God and Satan tempting people with the chance to be like God, as the Gods, etc. (even in the Temple teachings)
So was Isaiah mistranslated? (JST doesn’t change this verses meaning)
Do we just misunderstand this verse?
Or is it possible that we misunderstand LDS doctrine?
…or could this Doctrine be false and LDS wrong to teach it?
B
BJ_Colbert
Guest
Seeks God:
When people not of your faith accuse you of worshiping Saints or Mary, you claim you are not, and I know you are not, but this is just an example of the kind of misunderstanding that happens when you as an outsider to our beliefs try to put your own spin on what you think we believe. You said that when we believe in eternal progression and eternal families it sounds like Satanism. Well, I can say praying to statues and leaving offerings for them sounds like idolatry to me, and you know what God says about that. “Thou shalt not bow down before graven images” “Thou shalt not have any Gods before me”
Pope John Paul I referred to God the Father and God the Mother. That sounds like he had a wife and we are his spirit children, just as LDS believe. So Pope John Paul I must have been LDS. (just a joke)
All I am trying to do is point out that you also have some very strange beliefs and some that appear to others to be against what God has commanded.
Catholics do not keep the commandments, and feel it is unimportant to do so. You apparently will be exalted through no works of your own, but by God’s grace.
So it matters not if you are a murderer or a saint you all go to the same place and reap the same reward. All you have to do is be sure there is a priest at your death bed to absolve you of all sin, and you are as good as the person who lived the commandments to the best of their ability.
So to you it sounds like LDS are all planning on attaining godhood, and running their own planets(your interpretation not ours) Oh well, if that is what you want to think then that is what you will continue to think.
I still believe Isaiah does not contradict LDS beliefs in any way.
I guess the part about graven images makes your religion moot also. Just like when Moses came off the mountain and the people had melted down all the gold and were worshiping statues. (again I know you do not do this, but it seems like you do) I believe your explanations of why this is not so, and what you are really doing when you give food and flowers to marble forms, and kiss them and kneel down in front of them. I really really do believe you are not worshiping them. It just looks like you are.
Just like it looks to you like we will all be gods and live on little planets of our own and just spin around the universe forever.
Are we having fun yet? BJ
You claim you do not worship saints but to those outside the Catholic Church it seems as if you do. Not only does it seem that you worship the Saints of your Church, it seems that you pray to them before you pray to God. I know you say they are just like friends and you are just asking them to pray for you, but to us it sounds just like you are praying to them.
When people not of your faith accuse you of worshiping Saints or Mary, you claim you are not, and I know you are not, but this is just an example of the kind of misunderstanding that happens when you as an outsider to our beliefs try to put your own spin on what you think we believe. You said that when we believe in eternal progression and eternal families it sounds like Satanism. Well, I can say praying to statues and leaving offerings for them sounds like idolatry to me, and you know what God says about that. “Thou shalt not bow down before graven images” “Thou shalt not have any Gods before me”
Pope John Paul I referred to God the Father and God the Mother. That sounds like he had a wife and we are his spirit children, just as LDS believe. So Pope John Paul I must have been LDS. (just a joke)
All I am trying to do is point out that you also have some very strange beliefs and some that appear to others to be against what God has commanded.
Catholics do not keep the commandments, and feel it is unimportant to do so. You apparently will be exalted through no works of your own, but by God’s grace.
So it matters not if you are a murderer or a saint you all go to the same place and reap the same reward. All you have to do is be sure there is a priest at your death bed to absolve you of all sin, and you are as good as the person who lived the commandments to the best of their ability.
So to you it sounds like LDS are all planning on attaining godhood, and running their own planets(your interpretation not ours) Oh well, if that is what you want to think then that is what you will continue to think.
I still believe Isaiah does not contradict LDS beliefs in any way.
I guess the part about graven images makes your religion moot also. Just like when Moses came off the mountain and the people had melted down all the gold and were worshiping statues. (again I know you do not do this, but it seems like you do) I believe your explanations of why this is not so, and what you are really doing when you give food and flowers to marble forms, and kiss them and kneel down in front of them. I really really do believe you are not worshiping them. It just looks like you are.
Just like it looks to you like we will all be gods and live on little planets of our own and just spin around the universe forever.
Are we having fun yet? BJ
B
BJ_Colbert
Guest
Could be, and is from your point of view. To me it makes perfect sense and there is no conflict at all. There is only one God the Father and ever will be only one, so Isaiah is right and you are right and we are right, because we believe the same thing. There is only one God the Father.
You definitely misunderstand LDS doctrine, and if you re-read the list of 17-18 things we must try to do to gain exhaltation, it doesn’t seem too easy to me. I guess you are a better person than I am if you are already doing all of those things. As for me it will take the rest of my life and a bit of time hereafter to even master half of those requirements, so I do not expect to make it to the top level and will be pleasantly surprised to find myself on even the lower level of the Celestial kingdom.
BJ
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majick275
Guest
Well at least BJ made an honest effort to answer my questions. I have yet to see any other LDS folks provide such direct answers.
I am a little disappointed that you chose to use this as a springboard for attacks on Catholic beleifs that should probably be in their own threads as they have little or nothing to do with the subject at hand.
BJ didn’t you read the LDS scripture that I referenced? That alone should give you pause before procalaiming a belief that exaltaion is virtually unobtainable so all of this is moot.
I think that you showed us that LDS doctrine teaches that God has a father whom he worships and so on and so to an infinite past. You also showed us that LDS doctrine teaches that this shall always be infinitely into the future. An endless progression of infinite Gods. The beleif that you won’t be one of them (or that so few other folks will as well) doesn’t change this nor does the fact that you only worship one of them.
Catholics do not keep the commandments, and feel it is unimportant to do so. You apparently will be exalted through no works of your own, but by God’s grace.
Please…Mortal sin sends people to Hell. Not a pleasantly surprising lesser kingdom but HELL. Salvation by grace alone is more of a protestant doctrine. True repentance is necessary for salvific grace anyway. (you might want to look at the aforementioned passages in Luke though to better understand the Catholic position)
It is LDS doctrine that only “sons of perdition” will be cast out with Satan. EVERYONE else, unrepentant or not goes to kingdom that this greater than mere humans can even imagine. (telestial kingdom minimum) and if you read section 132 of your doctrine and covenants you will find that (for those who are sealed in the temple) as long as you don’t commit murder you can commit any sin or transgression and all manner of blasphemies and yet come forth in the first resurection and enter your exaltation.
BJ bless you for at least courageously showing us your doctrine and discussing your beliefs. (I am disappointed that none of your LDS peers on this board were as willing to be so forthcoming).
I can not reconcile your beliefs with scripture nor can I accept them as being Christian. I do accept you as a child of God and pray that the Lord will bless you and your husband that you will be treated with kindness and respect in both of your churches and that you two will enjoy a happy life.
I don’t agree with you but I do respect you.
I am a little disappointed that you chose to use this as a springboard for attacks on Catholic beleifs that should probably be in their own threads as they have little or nothing to do with the subject at hand.
BJ didn’t you read the LDS scripture that I referenced? That alone should give you pause before procalaiming a belief that exaltaion is virtually unobtainable so all of this is moot.
I think that you showed us that LDS doctrine teaches that God has a father whom he worships and so on and so to an infinite past. You also showed us that LDS doctrine teaches that this shall always be infinitely into the future. An endless progression of infinite Gods. The beleif that you won’t be one of them (or that so few other folks will as well) doesn’t change this nor does the fact that you only worship one of them.
Catholics do not keep the commandments, and feel it is unimportant to do so. You apparently will be exalted through no works of your own, but by God’s grace.
Please…Mortal sin sends people to Hell. Not a pleasantly surprising lesser kingdom but HELL. Salvation by grace alone is more of a protestant doctrine. True repentance is necessary for salvific grace anyway. (you might want to look at the aforementioned passages in Luke though to better understand the Catholic position)
It is LDS doctrine that only “sons of perdition” will be cast out with Satan. EVERYONE else, unrepentant or not goes to kingdom that this greater than mere humans can even imagine. (telestial kingdom minimum) and if you read section 132 of your doctrine and covenants you will find that (for those who are sealed in the temple) as long as you don’t commit murder you can commit any sin or transgression and all manner of blasphemies and yet come forth in the first resurection and enter your exaltation.
BJ bless you for at least courageously showing us your doctrine and discussing your beliefs. (I am disappointed that none of your LDS peers on this board were as willing to be so forthcoming).
I can not reconcile your beliefs with scripture nor can I accept them as being Christian. I do accept you as a child of God and pray that the Lord will bless you and your husband that you will be treated with kindness and respect in both of your churches and that you two will enjoy a happy life.
I don’t agree with you but I do respect you.
B
BJ_Colbert
Guest
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Seeks_God
Guest
BJ-
I understand that you don’t understand many of our beliefs and traditions that’s fair enough, but my original request is still unanswered. What interpretation do you have over the portion of Isaiah do you have and the various LDS leaders that have indicated an eternal progression? I truly am confused by this. How was God once like us? How will we be like Him someday? (From the King Follet discourses, right?) If we have the wrong interpretation of what is taught, then help us understand what interpretation we are supposed to have? I truly wasn’t attacking your belief; I was merely asking what troubled me about your belief. I needed further explanation.
BJ Colbert:
You’re point, correct me if I’m wrong, is that how can it be that a person who disobeys God throughout life and being a Catholic can go to heaven if they ask for forgiveness before dying? The only thing I can offer is that the Gospels were all about Jesus loving sinners, the vile, or the unworthy. What you and I see as the worst person on the planet may not be in God’s eyes. I truly believe that evil people need God more than others, who are we to decide if a person is worthy enough to go to God. Because honestly, I know Catholics who obey the commandments but question God’s existance. I also think that God, who desires ALL men to know Him, will give every opportunity He can to allow a person to love Him. The Prodigal Son is the perfect example of this love God has for us. I also remember that St. Paul was a persecutor of Christians before he came to know Christ. Is it possible he murdered? St, Peter drew His sword on another man. This was a violent act as well. St. Matthew was a tax collector. This was the worst of society in Jewish society at the time of Jesus. There are many more examples of individuals who were not ‘worthy’ of God that God had accepted.
BJ Colbert:
SG
I understand that you don’t understand many of our beliefs and traditions that’s fair enough, but my original request is still unanswered. What interpretation do you have over the portion of Isaiah do you have and the various LDS leaders that have indicated an eternal progression? I truly am confused by this. How was God once like us? How will we be like Him someday? (From the King Follet discourses, right?) If we have the wrong interpretation of what is taught, then help us understand what interpretation we are supposed to have? I truly wasn’t attacking your belief; I was merely asking what troubled me about your belief. I needed further explanation.
BJ Colbert:
I would extend the comment that ‘catholics do not keep the commandments’ to include the phrase ‘without God’s help’…but that’s splitting hairs.
You’re point, correct me if I’m wrong, is that how can it be that a person who disobeys God throughout life and being a Catholic can go to heaven if they ask for forgiveness before dying? The only thing I can offer is that the Gospels were all about Jesus loving sinners, the vile, or the unworthy. What you and I see as the worst person on the planet may not be in God’s eyes. I truly believe that evil people need God more than others, who are we to decide if a person is worthy enough to go to God. Because honestly, I know Catholics who obey the commandments but question God’s existance. I also think that God, who desires ALL men to know Him, will give every opportunity He can to allow a person to love Him. The Prodigal Son is the perfect example of this love God has for us. I also remember that St. Paul was a persecutor of Christians before he came to know Christ. Is it possible he murdered? St, Peter drew His sword on another man. This was a violent act as well. St. Matthew was a tax collector. This was the worst of society in Jewish society at the time of Jesus. There are many more examples of individuals who were not ‘worthy’ of God that God had accepted.
BJ Colbert:
I’m truly not trying to sound argumentative, but I truly am curious what the LDS interpretation of the passage of Isiaha and the King Follet (spelling?) Discourse about God being as we are now and we might become how he is. I think that is what my original point was - what interpretation are we supposed to have? It is obvious how we do see it - we see it as the original sin. This idea that we can become gods and that God was once human is totally bizarre to us and since we have it wrong (at least that’s what you are saying), then what interpretation SHOULD we have?
SG
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honeybear
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BJ Colbert:
majick275:
B.J. Sigh, shy do you do this? I f you want to be fairly treated and not have angry people answering you, why do you exaggerate and distort so? No one goes to perdition by Missing Mass on Sunday due to illness, death in the family, ran out of gas, had to work, paralyzed on one side. If your husband is truly Catholic, he knows this. I am beginning to doubt the existence of said husband, B.J. because he has truly bizarre Catholic attitudes no one ever heard of. It would be nice if you made some type of attempt to describe these things without extreme hyperbole. Perhpas you should obtain a copy of the Catechism as these things are spelled out quite literally in it.
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Vidar
Guest
This is a distortion of Catholic belief. It is true that some Catholics do this and having been a mormon, I know that members of your religion does so too. But neither of them says it is ok to ignore God after having been to church.
Again a gross distortion of Catholic teaching, allow me to quote the catechism of the Catholic Church:
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who **deliberately***fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. *(emphasis mine)
Unbelievable! And coming from a person that complains LDS in here are “persecuted” because their belief is critiscised. I don’t think you honestly believe this nonesemse. From where have you gotten the idea that all serious sins (potentially mortal if done with full knowledge and consent) are atleast equal? Your own statement suggests otherwise since you say it is “possibly worse” than murder or adultery! This is a lie, a distortion and no Catholic priest has told your husband this. The origin of this garbage is in your own mind, or in the mind of other anti-catholics whom you have read or spoken to.
More lies and distortions. If he has not destroyed his relationship with God by freely, willfully and knowingly committing a serious sin he will go to heaven without confession or last rites. If he has committed such as sin, he needs to repent. Even if a priest cannot make it there in time, he can be forgiven through a perfect act of contrition.
I was born and raised a LDS, and I know my former faith quite well. I can understand your frustration with Catholicism, since you obviously haven’t put much effort into finding out what we believe. I am not going to tell you that you “will never understand”. That is up to you.
Vidar
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BJRumph
Guest
Thank you Paul Dupre!!!
In posts #55-56 you expressed in far clearer, and probably more charitable, language than I have yet to muster here regarding my personal (if I am being honest) Irritation at some of the things spouted out as being faithful LDS doctrine, that is pure deception.
Colbert, you initially dismissed (on this thread) the idea that the lds teach (institutionally) that the Bible is corrupted, in an attempt to show why the lds church still uses it; yet OTHER LDS, current and learned, disprove this assertion, as even do you by making the “rubber stamp” assertion of “so far as it is translated correctly”.
Secondly, you repeatedly claim that the lds church does not teach that God was man, or that we are expected to become like him, as Gods. Again, it is no attack to point out that other faithful, current, and learned mormons have contradicted your own position.
Yes, we all know that you have particular beliefs regarding this subject. However, every mormon I have read on this board (not just this thread) does not agree with you that this is not lds doctrine. The quibbling done is on a level far beyond anything you ever respond to; but the fact remains, that you are, as someone else pointed out, heterodox in your lds beliefs, even if you sincerily believe them to be the truth.
While I see no reason to disallow you to believe what you will, but what you believe is NOT what the LDS church either now, nor historically, taught regarding the issue of exhaltation or eternal progression.
If your husband is really taking the Missionary discussions, then I would suggest you earnestly, and with a clear heart and mind, listen to them with as much earnest that you use in believing the tripe you disgorge regarding the RCC (all the while insisting upon how much more charitable you are of them, than they are of you). If you have a current TR, then I would also, in charity, encourage and exort you to attend, and pay even more rapt and sincere attention to what is taught there. And, then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, savor and ASSEMELATE the doctrines taught you. Actually take them into your mind, and KNOW them.
Either you will be led to come into “full communion” (to borrow a catholic turn-of-phrase) with the doctrines of your chosen religion (LDS); or you will be led elsewhere. Before you blast me with more “your-just-an-intoloerant-biggoted-catholic-who-hates-mormons” antics, consider that the advise given you just now is not anything that any of the GAs in Utah have not repeatedly and assiduously given to the membership of the church in general.
So, back to the issue at hand, the “problem” has yet to be resolved or answered by the lds. So, I would like to hear any rebuttles or apologetic from a TBM lds myself.
And to back up a little, and give a little more supporting documentation regarding the LDS’ belief that knowing God is essential to one’s salvation; the instance of the particular doctrine of Smith’s is also found in the Lectures on Faith, which was doctrinally official until the last century (20th), which would place its “truth” on a better position than in just the KFD, imho. No, it did not get into the man-becomes-god bit, but the teaching that knowing God is paramount is there.
In posts #55-56 you expressed in far clearer, and probably more charitable, language than I have yet to muster here regarding my personal (if I am being honest) Irritation at some of the things spouted out as being faithful LDS doctrine, that is pure deception.
Colbert, you initially dismissed (on this thread) the idea that the lds teach (institutionally) that the Bible is corrupted, in an attempt to show why the lds church still uses it; yet OTHER LDS, current and learned, disprove this assertion, as even do you by making the “rubber stamp” assertion of “so far as it is translated correctly”.
Secondly, you repeatedly claim that the lds church does not teach that God was man, or that we are expected to become like him, as Gods. Again, it is no attack to point out that other faithful, current, and learned mormons have contradicted your own position.
Yes, we all know that you have particular beliefs regarding this subject. However, every mormon I have read on this board (not just this thread) does not agree with you that this is not lds doctrine. The quibbling done is on a level far beyond anything you ever respond to; but the fact remains, that you are, as someone else pointed out, heterodox in your lds beliefs, even if you sincerily believe them to be the truth.
While I see no reason to disallow you to believe what you will, but what you believe is NOT what the LDS church either now, nor historically, taught regarding the issue of exhaltation or eternal progression.
If your husband is really taking the Missionary discussions, then I would suggest you earnestly, and with a clear heart and mind, listen to them with as much earnest that you use in believing the tripe you disgorge regarding the RCC (all the while insisting upon how much more charitable you are of them, than they are of you). If you have a current TR, then I would also, in charity, encourage and exort you to attend, and pay even more rapt and sincere attention to what is taught there. And, then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, savor and ASSEMELATE the doctrines taught you. Actually take them into your mind, and KNOW them.
Either you will be led to come into “full communion” (to borrow a catholic turn-of-phrase) with the doctrines of your chosen religion (LDS); or you will be led elsewhere. Before you blast me with more “your-just-an-intoloerant-biggoted-catholic-who-hates-mormons” antics, consider that the advise given you just now is not anything that any of the GAs in Utah have not repeatedly and assiduously given to the membership of the church in general.
So, back to the issue at hand, the “problem” has yet to be resolved or answered by the lds. So, I would like to hear any rebuttles or apologetic from a TBM lds myself.
And to back up a little, and give a little more supporting documentation regarding the LDS’ belief that knowing God is essential to one’s salvation; the instance of the particular doctrine of Smith’s is also found in the Lectures on Faith, which was doctrinally official until the last century (20th), which would place its “truth” on a better position than in just the KFD, imho. No, it did not get into the man-becomes-god bit, but the teaching that knowing God is paramount is there.
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