A sinless Mary and birth pangs?

[tbuley]

If Mary was free of sin did she have birth pangs?

 

[allhers]

No, I don’t believe she did, she did however labor to give birth, (meaning she went into labor but was free from the pain, I belive.)

 

[tbuley]

Revelation of John
12
2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.( ESV)

I here Catholic apologists use this chapter a lot to prove things about Mary (ie. Queen of the universe) .

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Revelation of John
12
2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.( ESV)

I here Catholic apologists use this chapter a lot to prove things about Mary (ie. Queen of the universe) .

As to the question - the idea is no part of Catholic doctrine - it is the serious disadvantage of “angelising” Mary: it makes her gynaecology unlike that of any woman before or since, for no clear reason. If her privileges & theological status are the reason, it would seem that her (far greater) Son should have been spared all suffering. So the idea is not in accord with the Incarnation Jesus was not spared suffering, so it is not at all clear why she should be spared.​

The real puzzle is why an idea which is not even a doctrine is treated as though it were one

 

[tbuley]

Jesus was not spared suffering, so it is not at all clear why she should be spared.
:

Good answer. I had read someone writing Mary did not suffer pain in child birth and thought it was more R.C. over glorification of her.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t entertain any speculation about her being free from birth pains, although there are more than a few Orthodox who will, like many RC, claim she did not suffer these pains.

I am personally seriously sceptical of the idea that she would be so different that she would not even endure that much. Although the severity of this can vary greatly from one woman to another, it is natural to motherhood.

The nature of what sinlessness really means in her context is certainly up to debate. Regardless of how one feels on the subject, it is not an idea that is necessary for salvation.

Michael

 

[allhers]

Revelation of John
12
2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.( ESV)

I here Catholic apologists use this chapter a lot to prove things about Mary (ie. Queen of the universe) .

Excellent answer and explation here:
www.ewtn.com
then click on Catholic Q & A
then click on Search previously asked questions
then select Any Forum (top of left column)
then select Any Expert (top of middle column)
then under last column, title Go Back, select the year 2003,
under keyword or phrase type in Revelation 12:2
Good day!

 

[water]

would this thread mean to say “if she had birth pain, she was not sinless”?

 

[allhers]

Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).

source for this on this site:

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

 

[thedavidwilson]

If Mary was free of sin did she have birth pangs?

No. Mary was without original sin (Immaculate Conception). If you believe she had labor pains and her body died (corporal corruption) then you have negated hundreds of years of theology on original sin.

Her “labor” was painless and she remined a virgin before, during and after the birth. We do not know how this happened just as we do not know the physics of Jesus’s rising from the dead. I have heard one analogy saying Jesus’s birth was like light coming through a window (just an analogy).

 

[allhers]

errr. so sorry, my cat obviously wanted to reply to this thread as she jumped up here while I was reading and then next thing I knew this box was here. (I guess she doesn’t really know how to put it into words though:shrug: ) Bye for now.