A Sinless Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter Medic_Mark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Medic_Mark

Guest
Question:

If Mary was sinless, could she have not made a perfect sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary? Isn’t this a typical protestant objection?
 
Question:

If Mary was sinless, could she have not made a perfect sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary? Isn’t this a typical protestant objection?
I have never heard that objection, maybe someone else has. But you’d have to have a very, very poor understanding of Christ’s sacrifice and our redemption to come up with an objection like that, I would think. I don’t think too many Protestants would think along those lines. The most common objection I’ve heard is the quote from the Bible which says that “all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.”
 
I’ve been in the Protestant church all my life and I never heard of that argument (maybe I just haven’t spent enough time with the Catholic bashers :D). It’s an interesting argument. Jesus could give his life for our sins because he is sinless. But, if Mary is also sinless…

My take has always been that all men (including women) are sinful. I would say this is the typical Protestant objection. Only Jesus is called sinless in scripture and he manages that because he’s the son of God.

I do have a logical objection to concluding that Mary is sinless because she’s the mother of Jesus. Why not conclude that Mary’s mother is also sinless because she’s the mother of the sinless Mother of God? This logic continues all the way back to Eve, who committed the first sin.
 
Question:

If Mary was sinless, could she have not made a perfect sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary? Isn’t this a typical protestant objection?
Ah, here’s gotcha 🙂 Mary was indeed sinless - but - she was sinless only because she was redeemed by the Grace she received in advance from her divine Son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Jesus Christ, alone, is the only human being who is sinless by His own merits, hence why only His sacrifice brought about salvation for mankind!
 
To the OP, Christ is the only fitting Sacrifice because He’s both sinless and eternal. Similarly, an incarnated angel wouldn’t have been a sufficient Sacrifice. And Adam wouldn’t have been able to atone for Eve’s sins (or vice versa) at the point one but not both had sinned in Eden.
I’ve been in the Protestant church all my life and I never heard of that argument (maybe I just haven’t spent enough time with the Catholic bashers :D). It’s an interesting argument. Jesus could give his life for our sins because he is sinless. But, if Mary is also sinless…

My take has always been that all men (including women) are sinful. I would say this is the typical Protestant objection. Only Jesus is called sinless in scripture and he manages that because he’s the son of God.
Catholics believe that Mary was preserved from sin miraculously, through application of the Blood of Christ across time. Likewise, in Heaven, we’ll be sinless, even though we don’t deserve to be by our own merits. So I think we can at least agree that it’s not logically impossible for Mary to be sinless, right? And when Paul says “all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God,” he’s meaning all groups of people (that is, Jews and Gentiles alike), not every single individual. After all, he doesn’t mean Jesus, to point out the obvious.
I do have a logical objection to concluding that Mary is sinless because she’s the mother of Jesus. Why not conclude that Mary’s mother is also sinless because she’s the mother of the sinless Mother of God? This logic continues all the way back to Eve, who committed the first sin.
Great question. When we talk about this, we aren’t saying that a sinless person must have sinless parents, but that:
(1) Mary isn’t just the Mother of God, She’s the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant. Look at the transition from Rev. 11 (which ends on the Ark) and Rev. 12 (which begins with Mary crowned in Heaven). So the OT Ark, because it was intrinsically Holy, was in a perfect shelter. That doesn’t mean every material for the Ark had to be in its own Ark, ad infinitum. No, the Holy of Holies is in the Ark, so the Ark is to be purified. The Ark isn’t the Holy of Holies, so it doesn’t need its own Ark. Likewise, Christ is God, so He has an Ark in His Mom. She’s not God, so no need to keep the cycle going.
(2) Unlike Mary, Christ is taken entirely from Mary’s flesh and blood. Mary has DNA and everything else distinct from Her mom and dad. Jesus doesn’t. He purposely takes everything He uses to Incarnate Himself from Mary alone, which makes sense, given #3.
(3) Mary is the New Eve. Just as Paul calls Christ “the last Adam,” we see the early Church refer to Mary as “the New Eve.” For example, She’s called this in Against Heresies, which was written before the word “Trinity” was ever coined – it’s a belief dating back to the beginning of the Church. The idea is simple. Death enters the world through Adam, but subordinately, through Eve. Both being without original sin, but both choose to sin by eating of the fruit of the tree. The curse is reversed by Christ, and subordinately, by Mary. Both begin without original sin, and both resist temptation. Ultimately, instead of Eve taking the fruit from the tree to Adam, we see Mary at the foot of the Tree, with the Fruit of Her Womb on it, atoning for the sins of Adam with His Holy Blood.

All of this is prophesied in Genesis 3:15, which says that the “seed of the Woman” will crush the head of Satan. Normally, geneology is measured through the man, but the Woman in question is a Virgin, Mary, a fact Christ makes clear by calling Her Woman at the start and end of His ministry (that is, from the wedding at Cana to the Cross). Finally, Eve is the Mother of the Living (physically - see Genesis 3:20), while Mary is the Mother of the Living (spiritually - see Rev. 12:17).

Like I said, very good question. The Church Fathers have great insights on this, and I think we can trust their testimony. After all, if we can’t trust the Christians in 180 to have gotten it right, it seems hazardous to trust their canon of Scripture in 300 or so, right? And without it, how can we even speak of having a Bible?
 
Ah, here’s gotcha 🙂 Mary was indeed sinless - but - she was sinless only because she was redeemed by the Grace she received in advance from her divine Son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Jesus Christ, alone, is the only human being who is sinless by His own merits, hence why only His sacrifice brought about salvation for mankind!
Yes I think that is the logic. And since what was required for the work of our salvation was a sacrafice worthy to atone for sins commited by man against an eternal Almighty and infinite God, the sacrafice has to be more than just sinless. It has to be eternal, almighty, and infinite as well - namely equal to God Himself. So St. Mary could not have been the sacrafice needed because she is not equal to God.
 
Ah, here’s gotcha 🙂 Mary was indeed sinless - but - she was sinless only because she was redeemed by the Grace she received in advance from her divine Son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Jesus Christ, alone, is the only human being who is sinless by His own merits, hence why only His sacrifice brought about salvation for mankind!
Sorry, I have nothing to add, but I wanted to quote this to add emphasis. This is a GREAT post and deserves repeating!
 
I do have a logical objection to concluding that Mary is sinless because she’s the mother of Jesus. Why not conclude that Mary’s mother is also sinless because she’s the mother of the sinless Mother of God? This logic continues all the way back to Eve, who committed the first sin.
Jesus’ mother gave birth to a Divine Being, Mary’s mother gave birth to a human being, so even if Mary was sinless (as the Catholic Church teaches and I believe) the situations are still very different.

I think Mary was preserved from sin to fulfill the foreshadowing that Belloc Fan describes, not because a sinless son logically must have a sinless mother. This article about Mary and “typology” expresses similar ideas.

As a lesser point, our savior was present as God from all eternity to bless his mother. He could honor her by protecting her from falling into sin, but she lacked the power to do the same for her parents.
 
Ah, here’s gotcha 🙂 Mary was indeed sinless - but - she was sinless only because she was redeemed by the Grace she received in advance from her divine Son’s sacrifice on the Cross.

Jesus Christ, alone, is the only human being who is sinless by His own merits, hence why only His sacrifice brought about salvation for mankind!
Thanks. That makes sense to me and clarifies the issue for me.
 
You’re Welcome, and thanks to everyone else who liked my answer! 🙂
 
But only if you could edit out the matter of Christ being a perfect “human being.”

Jesus was a Divine Person with Divine and Human Natures - He was not a “human being.”

It was the fact that He is God that His Salvific Death and Resurrection can be applied to all of humanity - as we all know!

Alex
 
But only if you could edit out the matter of Christ being a perfect “human being.”

Jesus was a Divine Person with Divine and Human Natures - He was not a “human being.”

It was the fact that He is God that His Salvific Death and Resurrection can be applied to all of humanity - as we all know!

Alex
That is the necessary distinction. Jesus was a Divine Person with two natures (human and Divine). When He assumed His human nature He remained a Divine Person - the Second Person of the Trinity. All of the actions and sufferings of Jesus that were accomplished through His human nature were the actions and sufferings of God, and therefore of infinite value.

The sacrifice of Jesus did not satisfy the justice of God merely because He was sinless, but because He was God.
 
The hypostatic union of the divine nature and the human nature of Jesus in the divine person of Jesus ChristHere we consider this union as a fact; the nature of the union will be later taken up. Now it is our purpose to prove that the Divine nature was really and truly united with the human nature of Jesus, i.e., that one and the same Person, Jesus Christ, was God and man. We speak here of no moral union, no union in a figurative sense of the word; but a union that is physical, a union of two substances or natures so as to make One Person, a union which means that God is Man and Man is God in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Drum, W. (1910). The Incarnation. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 7, 2010 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm

peace
 
The hypostatic union of the divine nature and the human nature of Jesus in the divine person of Jesus ChristHere we consider this union as a fact; the nature of the union will be later taken up. Now it is our purpose to prove that the Divine nature was really and truly united with the human nature of Jesus, i.e., that one and the same Person, Jesus Christ, was God and man. We speak here of no moral union, no union in a figurative sense of the word; but a union that is physical, a union of two substances or natures so as to make One Person, a union which means that God is Man and Man is God in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Drum, W. (1910). The Incarnation. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 7, 2010 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm

peace
👍

Christ described Himself as the “Son of Man”. He was the son of a human being, Mary. Thus Himself a human being!

That He is also the Son of God the Father, and Himself God the Son is not to be discounted 😃 as this alone is why He was sinless by His own “merit”!

(somethings on a Catholic forum I hope are implied… ;))
 
Runningdude gave the correct answer.

I would just add - it might seem strange to us that Mary would be conceived immaculately before Jesus’ sacrifice if his sacrifice were necessary, but God is not temporally bound in the way that we are.
 
Question:

If Mary was sinless, could she have not made a perfect sacrifice upon the cross at Calvary? Isn’t this a typical protestant objection?
This only works if your soteriology is based exclusively on Christ’s sinless life.
 
If sin can not have dominion over us when we are under grace (Romans 6:14), and we know that Mary was FULL OF GRACE (Luke1:28), why do some people think that sin had dominion over her?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top