A slightly different "Glory be..."?

[The_Reginator]

I’ve just started using a great site: Divine Office - Liturgy of the Hours .

They use some wording I’ve never heard before:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever, Amen

(I’ve always prayed:
“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. Amen.”)

Have others heard/used the wording I’ve quoted?

 

[malphono]

Personally I don’t care for the “new” rendering, but it’s nothing more than yet another “updated” translation of the Latin original. Not that it makes any difference, but in general, I really don’t much care for “updated translations” at all: frankly, I don’t see the need.

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve just started using a great site: Divine Office - Liturgy of the Hours .

They use some wording I’ve never heard before:

(I’ve always prayed:
“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. Amen.”)

Have others heard/used the wording I’ve quoted?

I have been using the “new” wording, which really is not all that new, as we were taught this back in 1982 when I was in the eighth grade.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yep, I’ve heard it. I can’t get used to saying it since I leaned the prayer by route the ‘old’ way. Not that big of a deal though.

 

[Brenda_V]

That seems to be truncated.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

Is that part of it and you just didn’t add it? Because that is the way I learned it.

As for the question about “ever shall be” vs “will be forever” is just a difference in language. Both mean the same thing. It is like I still say “Thy kingdom come” vs. “your kingdom come” or “the Lord is with thee” vs. “the Lord is with you”.

Brenda V.

 

[Lujack]

That seems to be truncated.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

Is that part of it and you just didn’t add it? Because that is the way I learned it.

As for the question about “ever shall be” vs “will be forever” is just a difference in language. Both mean the same thing. It is like I still say “Thy kingdom come” vs. “your kingdom come” or “the Lord is with thee” vs. “the Lord is with you”.

Brenda V.

Who says “Your kingdom come” and “the Lord is with you”? I’ve never heard that before, to be honest.

 

[kitafraya]

Yes, the Glory be is slightly different in the Liturgy of the Hours. It is supposed to be that way. I have been doing the Liturgy of the Hours for some time now and even had my priest help me when I first started and I had the same question. You get used to it after a while. Then when you go to say the Rosary or other prayers that have the Glory Be in it, you will find that it comes out naturally.

Thanks & God Bless,
–Kitafraya

 

[Joe_Kelley]

It is just a differing translation of the Latin “per omnia secular seculorum.” Literally this is for all time of times, or for all ages of ages, which is roughly forever. I particularly dislike the older form “world without end” since we know world will have an end. It is particularly confusing to children I think.

 

[The_Reginator]

Yes, the Glory be is slightly different in the Liturgy of the Hours. It is supposed to be that way. I have been doing the Liturgy of the Hours for some time now and even had my priest help me when I first started and I had the same question. You get used to it after a while. Then when you go to say the Rosary or other prayers that have the Glory Be in it, you will find that it comes out naturally.

Thanks & God Bless,
–Kitafraya

Ahhh. I see. Thanks everyone!
I was simply curious. It all seems (basically) the same to me.

That seems to be truncated.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

Is that part of it and you just didn’t add it? Because that is the way I learned it.

Brenda V.

Yup. I goofed! Thanks for being alert. (The world needs more lerts. )

 

[rpp]

Yes, the Glory be is slightly different in the Liturgy of the Hours. It is supposed to be that way. I have been doing the Liturgy of the Hours for some time now and even had my priest help me when I first started and I had the same question. You get used to it after a while. Then when you go to say the Rosary or other prayers that have the Glory Be in it, you will find that it comes out naturally.

Thanks & God Bless,
–Kitafraya

Yes, this is part of the Liturgy of the Hours. This is an official translation and not really new.

 

[Crumpy]

Dominus vobiscum does not have a verb.

It has been translated The LORD be with you, which is like a prayer that it would happen.

But, I think the verb to be understood is “is”, so The LORD is with you – which is our faith!

We tend to grimace when the verb “to be” is used incorrectly:

I be here.
You be going.

Be good – is good usage.

 

[Felix_Il_Gatto]

I’ve just started using a great site: Divine Office - Liturgy of the Hours .

They use some wording I’ve never heard before:

(I’ve always prayed:
“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. Amen.”)

Have others heard/used the wording I’ve quoted?

I pray it “Glory be to… as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end.” But, it seems to me that they are all saying the same thing: that the Glorious Trinity has always existed and will always exist.

 

[The_Reginator]

Dominus vobiscum does not have a verb.

It has been translated The LORD be with you, which is like a prayer that it would happen.

But, I think the verb to be understood is “is”, so The LORD is with you – which is our faith!

We tend to grimace when the verb “to be” is used incorrectly:

I be here.
You be going.

Be good – is good usage.

You be sure?

 

[Jacob21]

I had trouble getting used to it too. But its the official translation and the Benedictine Monks down the street pray it that way, so I trust it haha .

 

[JReducation]

There are many versions of the Gloria Patri. When they revised the Breviary they chose this version because it was more theologically correct… But the translation from the Latin to the other languages makes it sound strange to us.

If you have ever been to a Spanish speaking country they say:

Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning,
Now and forever,
and for ages to come.

No one knows where that version came from. But it appears in Christian Spanish writings dating back to the Middle Ages.

Different religious orders of men had variations of it that they used in their Divine Office. It was usually just a word or two. I know that in the old Franciscan Breviary we did not have the “world without end”. It stopped at “ever shall be.” Now we use the verision that the OP found., when we pray it in English.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Marysann]

As many posters have noted the “new” translation of the Gloria Patri is more accurate than the old one, but prayers are more than accurate translations of the original Latin or Greek. The wording of a prayer has an emotional component which is difficult to put your finger on. The old translations have been used by English speakers for hundreds of years. They are the way our English speaking ancestors prayed. These translations represent the continuity of faith through the generations. This is important to us, and we have a gut reaction against changing them. After V2 I remember that updated texts appeared for many common prayers, but they never caught on. The updated Gloria Patri became part of the official liturgy of the Church in the Liturgy of the Hours, but the others are not used now. I could never get used to the new Gloria Patri myself, and that is one of the reasons that I bought a British edition of the Liturgy of the Hours. The British use the old translation.

 

[JReducation]

As many posters have noted the “new” translation of the Gloria Patri is more accurate than the old one, but prayers are more than accurate translations of the original Latin or Greek. The wording of a prayer has an emotional component which is difficult to put your finger on. The old translations have been used by English speakers for hundreds of years. They are the way our English speaking ancestors prayed. These translations represent the continuity of faith through the generations. This is important to us, and we have a gut reaction against changing them. After V2 I remember that updated texts appeared for many common prayers, but they never caught on. The updated Gloria Patri became part of the official liturgy of the Church in the Liturgy of the Hours, but the others are not used now. I could never get used to the new Gloria Patri myself, and that is one of the reasons that I bought a British edition of the Liturgy of the Hours. The British use the old translation.

I believe that what you’re saying is true. There is an emotional attachment to anything that grounds us in a tradition. That’s very valid.

My point was that the Gloria Patri has many versions. As I posted before, if you take the former English version and you translate it into Spanish or Italian they would not recognize it. They have never used that version. They have used what is known as the Roman version, which no one knows where it came from.

Our former version does not really connect us with the Church of the past as much as it does with a specific language group within the Church. This is the way that English speakers said the Gloria Patri.

You mentioned that you purchased a British breviary. You may want to check one thing. There are some feast days that are solemnities for them, but not for us and the other way around. You have to make sure that when you say the LOTH it complements the mass of the day.

When I was in the missions we used the Franciscan Breviary from Spain. The Franciscan feast days were OK, because those are universal. But the othe feast days we had to adapt. The Spanish have feast days that the rest of the Church does not celebrate and solemnities that are feasts in the universal Church, such as the Solemnity of St. James. When we came to those holy days, we had to adapt so that the Divine Office matched the Liturgy of the day. You can’t have a feast at mass and a solemnity in the LOTH. They must flow from each other, back and forth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[peary]

The English rendering I have also heard used is: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

This is so unlike the Latin that I don’t even bother with it. Where do translators get these from??

 

[peary]

Ah…it was just pointed out to moi:

The original Greek wording is as follows:

Δόξα Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ καὶ Ἁγίῳ Πνεύματι,
καὶ νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Ἀμήν.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
Both now and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

I guess this is what is used in the orthodox churches.

The original Latin wording is as follows:

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto,
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, both now and always, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

This doxology in the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches is most commonly found in the following traditional form:

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

The translations of ‘semper’ as ‘ever shall be’, and ‘in saecula saeculorum’ as ‘world without end’ date from Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer, and are most commonly found in Roman Catholic and Anglican usage, as well as the derivative usage of older Lutheran liturgical books.

In the current usage of the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran churches, the following translation by the International Consultation on English Texts (ICET) has been increasingly used since 1971:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

The doxology has a different translation in the use of the English-speaking Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches, as following:

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

 

[Raphael777]

The English rendering I have also heard used is: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

This is so unlike the Latin that I don’t even bother with it. Where do translators get these from??

Actually, that is a very accurate rendering of the Latin (minus the “in the beginning” wording - don’t know where that went).

The Latin is Gloria Patri et Filio et Spiritui Sancto sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum.

I think everyone can agree that “Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” is an accurate rendering of the beginning of the prayer. It’s the second part that folks have trouble with.

…sicut erat in principio - “…as it was in the beginning”

et nunc et semper - “and now and forever (or ‘always’)”

et in saecula saeculorum - “and in/to the age of the ages.”

It’s not really pretty in modern English, which is why there is confusion about a proper rendering. It is heavily idiomatic in Latin (e.g. Some old cartagraphers would have said orbis terrarum - “the circle of lands”, where as we would just say “World.” - you can kind of get the idea of it from the original idiom, but it sounds clunky in English).

Needless to say while I favor a tranditional rendering of the prayer, I am highly sympathetic to folks on all sides of this issue