A slightly different "Glory be..."?

[Raphael777]

Peary,

Looks like we basically posted the same thing at the same time. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

 

[peary]

It’s not really pretty in modern English, which is why there is confusion about a proper rendering. It is heavily idiomatic in Latin (e.g. Some old cartagraphers would have said orbis terrarum - “the circle of lands”, where as we would just say “World.” - you can kind of get the idea of it from the original idiom, but it sounds clunky in English).

Chunky English!

My cousin in Italy says that somebody who speaks English to him always sounds as if he or she has a bag of marbles rolling around inside their mouth!

 

[JReducation]

Ah…it was just pointed out to moi:

The original Greek wording is as follows:

Δόξα Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ καὶ Ἁγίῳ Πνεύματι,
καὶ νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Ἀμήν.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
Both now and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

I guess this is what is used in the orthodox churches.

Is very Greek, but it has been in use among Catholics for over thousand years. It is used by the Spanish speaking countries and also by the Greek Catholics. The Spanish version is very similar, with one lline added. The Latin translation was never universally used.

Religiuos also used this other form well until the 1700s when the first religious congregations were founded. The congregations used the same breviary as the secular clergy with the Latin translation.

The Orders used a Latin breviary, but with the Greek translated into Latin. It has always been very interesting, because there was always a difference in how the three celbrated the Liturgy of the Hours: orders, congregations and secular priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Speramus]

…sicut erat in principio - “…as it was in the beginning”

et nunc et semper - “and now and forever (or ‘always’)”

et in saecula saeculorum - “and in/to the age of the ages.”

It’s not really pretty in modern English, which is why there is confusion about a proper rendering. It is heavily idiomatic in Latin (e.g. Some old cartagraphers would have said orbis terrarum - “the circle of lands”, where as we would just say “World.” - you can kind of get the idea of it from the original idiom, but it sounds clunky in English).

Needless to say while I favor a tranditional rendering of the prayer, I am highly sympathetic to folks on all sides of this issue

One man’s clunk is another man’s poetry. I’ve been praying the Gloria Patri that way in my private prayers for the last few years. I hear the phrase “ages of ages” and I think of praise and prayers echoing down the centuries.

 

[CDNowak]

I would argue that “world without end” is a clunky translation of the idiom (saecula saeculorum). While simply removing the idiom “will be forever” is perhaps more correct, a better translation would be along the lines of “shall be forever, through endless ages” (roughly).

 

[JReducation]

I would argue that we leave it alone. It’s not universal in the first place. Every language group has its own translation and none of them are the same as the Latin, precisely because they are bad grammar when you translate them. Some language groups have used the Greek Orthodox version, which is actually a little easier to translate But it’s not an exact match with the version that we use in English.

The important thing is what the prayer says.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[malphono]

I would argue that we leave it alone. It’s not universal in the first place. Every language group has its own translation and none of them are the same as the Latin, precisely because they are bad grammar when you translate them. Some language groups have used the Greek Orthodox version, which is actually a little easier to translate But it’s not an exact match with the version that we use in English.

Did I miss something?

Agreed that “sicut erat in principio” is a purely Roman addition, but “et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum” is common, being the Latin rendering of καὶ νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. (The same rendering exists in Syriac, and, I believe in Church Slavonic, Coptic, Ge’ez, and Armenian as well.) In which case we end up with merely a matter of an English translation.

 

[JReducation]

Did I miss something?

Agreed that “sicut erat in principio” is a purely Roman addition, but “et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum” is common, being the Latin rendering of καὶ νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. (The same rendering exists in Syriac, and, I believe in Church Slavonic, Coptic, Ge’ez, and Armenian as well.) In which case we end up with merely a matter of an English translation.

Actually we don’t end up with a matter of an English translation. The Spanish and Portuguese speaking Catholics have never used the Latin version of that prayer. They have always been allowed to use the Greek Orthodox version. They start the same, but the concluding words are different. However, the prayer still says the same thing. It gives glory to the Trinity and it proclaims the person’s faith in the eternity of the Trinity. No one seems to know when and how they began to use the Greek Orthodox version. But they have used it for centuries, just like they use God and Allah interchangeable in Spanish, though the spelling has changed to phonetic Spanish to “ojala” (pronounced oh-allah). It means “May God make it so.”. This is used in liturgy and private prayer.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[malphono]

Actually we don’t end up with a matter of an English translation. The Spanish and Portuguese speaking Catholics have never used the Latin version of that prayer. They have always been allowed to use the Greek Orthodox version. They start the same, but the concluding words are different. However, the prayer still says the same thing. It gives glory to the Trinity and it proclaims the person’s faith in the eternity of the Trinity. No one seems to know when and how they began to use the Greek Orthodox version. But they have used it for centuries, just like they use God and Allah interchangeable in Spanish, though the spelling has changed to phonetic Spanish to “ojala” (pronounced oh-allah). It means “May God make it so.”. This is used in liturgy and private prayer.

I suppose I should have qualified that I know of the Iberian variation of the Minor Doxology. (I’ll not get into the part about the Arabic word, lest I go off on a tangent). Anyway, what I should have said is “beyond Iberia” but even the Iberian variant essentially eliminates only the “sicut erat in principio” which is known to be a uniquely Roman addition. The rest of my prior questions stands. Did I just miss something?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I would argue that “world without end” is a clunky translation of the idiom (saecula saeculorum). While simply removing the idiom “will be forever” is perhaps more correct, a better translation would be along the lines of “shall be forever, through endless ages” (roughly).

That sounds good.

 

[PacoG]

Who says … “the Lord is with you”? I’ve never heard that before, to be honest.

I attended a Catholic elementary school in the mid-to-late-70s run by the Sisters of the Holy Ghost and Mary Immaculate. We had a mixture of old and young sisters and lay teachers.

The older sisters would say the Hail Mary with the thee’s and thou’s. The younger sisters would say the Hail Mary with you’s and your’s. So it would alternate from grade to grade. The same applied to the pronunciation of blessed (blessED vs blessed).

As a result, I can’t make it through a Rosary (or even a Hail Mary) without alternating between the two pronoun forms.

On average I will say a Hail Mary like this: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with THEE. Bless-ED are YOU among women and blessed is the fruit of THY womb, Jesus…

The Sunday lectors in our parish have the assignment of leading a decade of the Rosary after Mass. I used to get strange looks from everyone at first. I have had to discipline myself to start and stay with one or the other. People are relying on my consistency to be able to meditate on the mysteries.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Just wait until you become familiar in both, because it will always happen, when you pray the rosary in common, the form that will come out will be

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever, Amen.

and everyone will look at you.

Then you will go to say the LotH in common, and you will say

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, wold without end, Amen

and once again, everyone will look at you.

Trust me, it never fails. They are just similar enough that you can get to the end without thinking (the “be” should be a clue, but usually doesn’t get noticed), and then you are stuck, no way out without looking foolish.

 

[JReducation]

Just wait until you become familiar in both, because it will always happen, when you pray the rosary in common, the form that will come out will be

and everyone will look at you.

Then you will go to say the LotH in common, and you will say

and once again, everyone will look at you.

Trust me, it never fails. They are just similar enough that you can get to the end without thinking (the “be” should be a clue, but usually doesn’t get noticed), and then you are stuck, no way out without looking foolish.

This happens to me all the time.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF