A smaller Church

[CMatt25]

I’m gonna go out on a very short limb here and guess a lot of you “guys” weren’t all that pleased with the direction of the Church from lets say John 23 until JP2. At least that’s the vibe I get from reading some posts. A lot of TC’s it seems have problems with the time period post Vat 2 until JP2. Some seem to even still have problems now. I guess you at least have some experience understanding why some not so TC’s struggle with the direction nowadays.

But my question is, if you desire a smaller, so called “purer” Church as Benedict referred to in some fashion at some point, smaller means a loss of members, potentially no longer the largest, and most definitely a loss of revenue.

How you “guys” gonna continue the work of Christ, not only with less bodies but without the necessary funds?

 

[EnchantedEve]

I’m gonna go out on a very short limb here and guess a lot of you “guys” weren’t all that pleased with the direction of the Church from lets say John 23 until JP2. At least that’s the vibe I get from reading some posts. A lot of TC’s it seems have problems with the time period post Vat 2 until JP2. Some seem to even still have problems now. I guess you at least have some experience understanding why some not so TC’s struggle with the direction nowadays.

But my question is, if you desire a smaller, so called “purer” Church as Benedict referred to in some fashion at some point, smaller means a loss of members, potentially no longer the largest, and most definitely a loss of revenue.

How you “guys” gonna continue the work of Christ, not only with less bodies but without the necessary funds?

“By the grace of God go I?” It is incredible the resources people of the Church have at their disposal, spiritual, mental, physical, and financial. The Church started small, has been small, and if we become small again, it would still be the Church. A smaller, more dedicated group of faithful can accomplish far more than thousands of listless, disinterested and nominal believers. The matter is in God’s Hands to determine now, and the Holy Ghost shall inspire His Church in the direction He wishes to see it in.

 

[DomusAurea]

Small or big the church is true. Rich or poor the church is true. I don’t want to bring out the early-church-sledge-hammer but it wasn’t all that big and it wasn’t all that well funded. Guess what it was, though? True.

 

[JRKH]

I’m gonna go out on a very short limb here and guess a lot of you “guys” weren’t all that pleased with the direction of the Church from lets say John 23 until JP2. At least that’s the vibe I get from reading some posts. A lot of TC’s it seems have problems with the time period post Vat 2 until JP2. Some seem to even still have problems now. I guess you at least have some experience understanding why some not so TC’s struggle with the direction nowadays.

But my question is, if you desire a smaller, so called “purer” Church as Benedict referred to in some fashion at some point, smaller means a loss of members, potentially no longer the largest, and most definitely a loss of revenue.

Question - Why should any church group worry about losing members who are not True" members? In other words people who have not truly put Christ at their head and follow Christ in The Church in humility.
Those who Leave The Church, do so of their own volition. They choose to leave like those disciples of long ago who said,
“This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”…From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. (John 6:60 and 66)
It is the Church’s job to Teach that which is Truth, not to Teach that which fills pews.

I hasten to add here that the above applies equally to those who leave the church for “conservative” reasons and those who leave for “liberal” reasons.

How you “guys” gonna continue the work of Christ, not only with less bodies but without the necessary funds?

How did the early Church “continue the work of Christ”, with fewer bodies and less funds?

This is not something that we should worry about. We should trust in Christ to provide.
“The Father knows what you need…”
“Ask and you shall receive…”
“Do not worry about…tomorrow…”

I say this not out of a hard heart, but out of Love for those who are led astray by worries over worldly things whether they be bread to eat or “bread”(money) to spend.

Peace
James

 

[CMatt25]

Ok good luck. The world’s population is much larger now.

 

[Onegin]

Ok good luck. The world’s population is much larger now.

I think the obvious answer is that if you truly believe that Christ himself founded the Catholic Church in perpetuity it should be fairly easy to conclude that He will also provide for it as the need arises.

 

[stuart12]

The Catholic Church is not a political party that changes it positions frequently in order to gain popularity and votes. She was founded for the salvation of mankind, by Christ.

Very few people will experience the beatific vision compared to those who will not. The human element of the Church is in a bad way just now, and so much of that has been caused by the confusion and apathy after the Second Vatican Council.

What are the fruits of it? Lower Mass attendence. Higher dissent (which is not even challenged by our bishops). Traditional Catholic nations have become secularised (Spain in particular). Fewer attend the Sacrament of Penance. Also, how many Catholics could give an adequate description of what the Sacrifice of the Mass is?

Christ said that when the ‘Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?’

 

[michaeldaniels]

Like I alluded to in another post…what the Church needs is quality, not quantity…and if you understand that…you will also understand that quality will give way to quantity…but the increase in numbers will also be quality Catholics…not marginal Catholics. However, if you start off with a large number, with no regards to quality, then the large number of bad ones in the bunch will drive good ones away and prevent good prospects from joining…therefore it is counterproductive to have them as part of us to begin with, because their presence is destructive in and of itself.

I’m gonna go out on a very short limb here and guess a lot of you “guys” weren’t all that pleased with the direction of the Church from lets say John 23 until JP2. At least that’s the vibe I get from reading some posts. A lot of TC’s it seems have problems with the time period post Vat 2 until JP2. Some seem to even still have problems now. I guess you at least have some experience understanding why some not so TC’s struggle with the direction nowadays.

But my question is, if you desire a smaller, so called “purer” Church as Benedict referred to in some fashion at some point, smaller means a loss of members, potentially no longer the largest, and most definitely a loss of revenue.

How you “guys” gonna continue the work of Christ, not only with less bodies but without the necessary funds?

 

[michaeldaniels]

Great post!!!

Question - Why should any church group worry about losing members who are not True" members? In other words people who have not truly put Christ at their head and follow Christ in The Church in humility.
Those who Leave The Church, do so of their own volition. They choose to leave like those disciples of long ago who said,
“This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”…From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. (John 6:60 and 66)
It is the Church’s job to Teach that which is Truth, not to Teach that which fills pews.

I hasten to add here that the above applies equally to those who leave the church for “conservative” reasons and those who leave for “liberal” reasons.

How did the early Church “continue the work of Christ”, with fewer bodies and less funds?

This is not something that we should worry about. We should trust in Christ to provide.
“The Father knows what you need…”
“Ask and you shall receive…”
“Do not worry about…tomorrow…”

I say this not out of a hard heart, but out of Love for those who are led astray by worries over worldly things whether they be bread to eat or “bread”(money) to spend.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Like I alluded to in another post…what the Church needs is quality, not quantity…and if you understand that…you will also understand that quality will give way to quantity…but the increase in numbers will also be quality Catholics…not marginal Catholics. However, if you start off with a large number, with no regards to quality, then the large number of bad ones in the bunch will drive good ones away and prevent good prospects from joining…therefore it is counterproductive to have them as part of us to begin with, because their presence is destructive in and of itself.

Beautifully said!!!

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Ok good luck. The world’s population is much larger now.

The size of the worlds population has nothing to do with it.

The apostles, with nothing but their feet or a donkey or sailboat to ride, evangelized in the same way that we must do today. One person, or one small group, at a time. It took 1000 years or more before the faith could be said to have spread “world wide” in a “macro” sense, and even today there are areas and tribes that have never heard of Jesus

Today the “smaller but purer” church, with dedicated members willing to sacrifice to contribute to Church needs, and can make use of e-mail, internet, Television (EWTN, Radio etc.

In fact, I’d say that EWTN is a good example of how a "convervative group, loyal to the magisterium can “beat teh odds”. EWTN survives and prospers because those who watch it are willing to sacrifice to contribute to the network. Not that they don’t struggle, but just look at what they have accomplished.
In Parish life also those who are more devout tend to contribute more - both financially and physically by volunteering.

No - The old argument that smaller numbers of Catholics means proprotionalty fewer funds doesn’t hold up.

Peace
James

 

[CMatt25]

Like I alluded to in another post…what the Church needs is quality, not quantity…and if you understand that…you will also understand that quality will give way to quantity…but the increase in numbers will also be quality Catholics…not marginal Catholics. However, if you start off with a large number, with no regards to quality, then the large number of bad ones in the bunch will drive good ones away and prevent good prospects from joining…therefore it is counterproductive to have them as part of us to begin with, because their presence is destructive in and of itself.

Or the small but vocal “good ones” as you call yourselves will drive the less than perfect away and also keep others, unable to live up to your perfection from wanting to join your ranks in the first place.

 

[michaeldaniels]

No Matt…please understand I am not talking about struggling Catholics who honestly try and fail…heck there isn’t a single person that doesn’t have one particular struggle that they battle, but they wholeheartedly battle it and try to change and be transformed by Christ. The ones I am talking about are those in direct opposition to our teachings…the ones that publicly bring scandal such as Nancy Pelosi, or those publicly supporting Gay Marriage, or women’s ordination, etc…they try to say that they are Catholics but are fundamentally wrong about everything…then there are others who just deny the Real Presence or some other non-negotiable of our faith and don’t even attempt to understand or accept it. There is a difference in not understanding, but accepting out of obedience, rather than just flat out rejecting Church teaching. It is those people who just flat out reject The Church’s teachings and willfully live outside the Church, all the while maintaining they are Catholics and still receive Communion…that is who I am targeting. Not the simple, humble, struggling, sinner trying to become a better Catholic

Or the small but vocal “good ones” as you call yourselves will drive the less than perfect away and also keep others from wanting to join your ranks in the first place.

 

[JRKH]

Or the small but vocal “good ones” as you call yourselves will drive the less than perfect away and also keep others, unable to live up to your perfection from wanting to join your ranks in the first place.

Just to add a bit to what Michael has said.

Yes there are those individuals in any group who become “holier than thou’s”, like the pharasess et al. and these people can perhaps hinder some others from coming or staying in the church.
But this misses the point just as much as those who think that EVERY church teaching is negotiable.

The church has a clear and documented set of Teachings. These are available to anyone to read, strudy and incorporate. It is the teachings of The Church that we must follow, and not the opinions of others.

If I, or anyone else, look down my nose at someone who is struggling, then I am committing the sin of pride. Perhaps the worst sin of all.
But it is better that the Church teach “perfection”, for this is what Christ calls us to…
“You therefore must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48), than to teach relativism in order to fill the pews and avoid offending anyone.

Peace
James

 

[michaeldaniels]

Right on…hey, we seem to work well together defending the Faith

If I, or anyone else, look down my nose at someone who is struggling, then I am committing the sin of pride. Perhaps the worst sin of all.
But it is better that the Church teach “perfection”, for this is what Christ calls us to…
“You therefore must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48), than to teach relativism in order to fill the pews and avoid offending anyone.

Peace
James

 

[CMatt25]

So those struggling with obedience don’t count?

 

[recondelta]

I believe the Church eventually will become a bit smaller since She will lose most of the “True Believers,” who will take the same path as the SPXX, the followers of Father Feeney, and others who believe that the Church has stopped following the “real” path to salvation laid out by our Savior. Those of us who accept the Church and the Pope in spite of the problems and disagreements that arise are the ones who will remain.

 

[ProVobis]

How you “guys” gonna continue the work of Christ, not only with less bodies but without the necessary funds?

That would be fewer bodies, not less bodies.

But didn’t Christ start His Church with only 11 bodies? And what kinds of funds did He provide them with?

 

[michaeldaniels]

Matt, we are comparing apples and oranges…there is a huge difference between those struggling while honestly trying to educate themselves so they can willfully be obedient and those who are blindly reject and refuse to be obedient…a huge difference

So those struggling with obedience don’t count?

 

[JRKH]

So those struggling with obedience don’t count?

Struggling with obedience is not the same thing as rejecting authority.
I struggle with obedience. We all do.
I also struggle to understand the Church’s reasoning for some teachings.
That does not mean that I excuse myself from followng said teaching because I either don’t understand it, or I struggle to comply with it.

I certainly don’t try to tell The Church, protected as it is by the Holy Spirit, that I know better what it should be teaching. Instead I pray for humility to accept and obey Church teaching out of Love for God.

Peace
James