A so-called LDS religious scholar said FLDS more closely resemble Catholics & Baptists than LDS

[Lehl]

In this CNN article:
cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html#cnnSTCText

Religious scholar John Walsh also addressed a particularly damning piece of evidence: At least one bed found inside a temple that was allegedly used to consummate such marriages immediately after the ceremony.

“Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself,” said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. “The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down.”

But, he said, “To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple.”

Walsh said he also studies the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy a century ago and has no ties to the FLDS. He said without the polygamy aspect, the FLDS would resemble the Baptist or Catholic religions.

It is suspected that this so-called “religious scholar” is this LDS John Walsh.

lightplanet.com/mormons/testimonies/walsh_wj.htm
lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/brother_satan.htm
lightplanet.com/mormons/people/joseph_smith/masonry.html
lightplanet.com/mormons/priesthood/prophets/infallibility.html

And many other Mormon apologetic-type articles on this site…

Therefore his motive would be clear to try to distance the LDS from the FLDS as much as possible. He’s trying to protect the image of the LDS temples which are super-secret. Of course, it is reasonable for people to suspect that LDS temples also have beds like those found in the FLDS temple.

I think CNN needs to hear from a bunch of angry Catholics and Baptists for publishing this guy’s absurd, self-interested opinion when they clearly did not disclose his affliliation and tried to make him appear to be an impartial bystander.

The FLDS did not develop in a vaccuum. CNN needs to accurately report that the FLDS are simply “the early church” of the LDS. Therefore, “without the polygamy aspect, the FLDS would resemble the LDS religion.”

 

[Auriel]

I just replied on the other post abou the raid, That was one of my points as to why this is such a dangerous case. Many people share his opinion. So if they can remove over 400 children without due process what group is next?

BTW, I was subjected to all kinds of religions growing up, it depended upon which relative I was with. Most Baptist churches also had an area connected to the church , like a mini apartment with a bed, For Missions guests or if someone became ill. It is not uncommon.

 

[Lehl]

I just replied on the other post abou the raid, That was one of my points as to why this is such a dangerous case. Many people share his opinion. So if they can remove over 400 children without due process what group is next?

BTW, I was subjected to all kinds of religions growing up, it depended upon which relative I was with. Most Baptist churches also had an area connected to the church , like a mini apartment with a bed, For Missions guests or if someone became ill. It is not uncommon.

This topic is separate from the raid. This is about this quote in a CCN article from this so-called “religious scholar” who in actuality appears to be a Mormon apologist.

The beds found in the FLDS temple were specifically used for immediately consumating marriages. This information was directely from the confidential informant. It wasn’t conjecture on the part of the authorities.

The temple “contains an area where there is a bed where males over the age of 17 engage in sexual activity with female children under the age of 17,” according to an affidavit quoting a confidential informant who had been providing information to the Schleicher County sheriff for years.

The Mormon apologist’s claims in this article of his supposed “studies” of the FLDS that “Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself,” and “To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple.” are irrelevant. He is only in self-protect mode to rescue the image of the LDS. And strangely enough, he saw fit to try to drag the Catholics and Baptists into their mud.

 

[Auriel]

Understood.

But I still wanted to say that this is not a new opinion. I have heard people repeat his rhetoric for years. And that is like you said…

 

[Lehl]

Understood.

But I still wanted to say that this is not a new opinion. I have heard people repeat his rhetoric for years. And that is like you said…

What rhetoric—that FLDS resemble Catholics and Baptists more closely than LDS?

 

[skiswife]

I am thinking Walsh doesn’t know much about Catholics or Baptists… Don’t let it get to you…

 

[Lehl]

I am thinking Walsh doesn’t know much about Catholics or Baptists… Don’t let it get to you…

Obviously.

However, it seems extremely irresponsible for CNN to quote someone who is clearly NOT a “religious scholar” but a Mormon apologist and not identify him as such.

 

[J_C]

I don’t see CNN as much more than tabloid style “news.” they can’t be taken seriously, and most people who watch that stuff aren’t probably fretting over details.

 

[wjwalshphd]

1. I am the Mormon scholar that this thread is addressing. I am a scholar because I have a PhD in Religious Studies, a master’s degree in Jewish Studies, graduated from the LDS Institute of Religion, and the LDS Seminary Training program. I am presently doing post-doctoral work in Roman Catholic theology at the University of Saint Thomas-Houston (a Catholic institution).
2. In my testimony, I said that as far as family values, if you took away the polygamy, the FLDS would appear like Catholics and Protestants in their family values. I did not say they were alike in their theology. My PhD dissertation is considered by some people to be the definitive work in showing exactly how Mormonism may be the greatest heresy in historical tradition.
3. I have also said FLDS and LDS worship services are closer to each other in almost all respects than either of them is to the practices of any other religion, denomination, or sect.
4. As one poster said, I suggest you worry more about the implications of the state’s arguments than debate the theological differences betwene Mormons and Roman Catholics. The state said in a filing yesterday that they took all the boys because they believed in a living prophet. Since a prophet in Mormonism has a lower position than the Pope does in Catholicism, there may be something in the state’s arguments that may be directly relevant to you.

 

[RC_Matt]

1. I am the Mormon scholar that this thread is addressing. I am a scholar because I have a PhD in Religious Studies, a master’s degree in Jewish Studies, graduated from the LDS Institute of Religion, and the LDS Seminary Training program. I am presently doing post-doctoral work in Roman Catholic theology at the University of Saint Thomas-Houston (a Catholic institution).
2. In my testimony, I said that as far as family values, if you took away the polygamy, the FLDS would appear like Catholics and Protestants in their family values. I did not say they were alike in their theology. My PhD dissertation is considered by some people to be the definitive work in showing exactly how Mormonism may be the greatest heresy in historical tradition.
3. I have also said FLDS and LDS worship services are closer to each other in almost all respects than either of them is to the practices of any other religion, denomination, or sect.
4. As one poster said, I suggest you worry more about the implications of the state’s arguments than debate the theological differences betwene Mormons and Roman Catholics. The state said in a filing yesterday that they took all the boys because they believed in a living prophet. Since a prophet in Mormonism has a lower position than the Pope does in Catholicism, there may be something in the state’s arguments that may be directly relevant to you.

Dude, that’s a pretty lame statement and I’m surprised that somebody with your level of education would make a comment like that. In the first place, I immediately discounted your comment in that Catholics and Baptists (Calvinists) are at opposite ends of the theological scale. In the second place, following your apparent reasoning, the FLDS “family values” would similarly, and even more so, resemble those of the LDS. You neglected to mention that point and it appears you are attempting to “mainstream” the FLDS, save the polygamy issue; and you certainly can’t “mainstream” the FLDS by comparing it to the LDS. You might also have added that BUDHISTS hold similar “family values.”

Your attempt to parallel the Pope with Warren Jeffs is absolutely absurd. The Pope does not claim to be a prophet of God and he does not dictate/control virtually every facet of a Catholic’s life. Neither the Pope, nor the Catholic Church, teach and encourage Catholics to engage in illegal activities. Warren Jeffs is in PRISON for his behavior and for encouraging his followers to emulate that behavior. Catholics do not live in closed communities, nor are they totally ostracized from the larger community if they don’t agree with everything the Pope teaches. You’re attempting to equate apples with bowling balls and the FLDS experience has absolutely NO implication for Catholics or ANY other group that doesn’t profess or practice illegal activities.

 

[VociMike]

1. I am the Mormon scholar that this thread is addressing. I am a scholar because I have a PhD in Religious Studies, a master’s degree in Jewish Studies, graduated from the LDS Institute of Religion, and the LDS Seminary Training program. I am presently doing post-doctoral work in Roman Catholic theology at the University of Saint Thomas-Houston (a Catholic institution).
2. In my testimony, I said that as far as family values, if you took away the polygamy, the FLDS would appear like Catholics and Protestants in their family values. I did not say they were alike in their theology. My PhD dissertation is considered by some people to be the definitive work in showing exactly how Mormonism may be the greatest heresy in historical tradition.

I’m genuinely curious about this, and come with no preconceptions (at least none that I discern ). How are FLDS family values closer to Catholics and Protestants than to LDS?

 

[wjwalshphd]

I’m genuinely curious about this, and come with no preconceptions (at least none that I discern ). How are FLDS family values closer to Catholics and Protestants than to LDS?

I was originally asked if you took polygamy out of the equation how the family values of this group of people compared to those of other conservative groups. I said they were similar. I never said FLDS family values are closer to Catholic family values than they are to LDS family values. You could also say FLDS family values are similar to conservative Jewish or Muslim family values.

For example, they value children and minimize the use of birth control, think abortion is a horrible sin, believe fornication and adultery are wrong, reject the pornification of America, etc. We could create a huge list, but the point is simply that if you take polygamy out of the equation, their family values are similar to most other conservative American religious traditions.

 

[deb1]

I
For example, they value children and minimize the use of birth control, think abortion is a horrible sin, believe fornication and adultery are wrong, reject the pornification of America, etc. We could create a huge list, but the point is simply that if you take polygamy out of the equation, their family values are similar to most other conservative American religious traditions.

Wouldn’t this be similar to LDS beliefs also?

I haven’t looked at the links yet, but this by itself doesn’t seem offensive to me.

 

[wjwalshphd]

Wouldn’t this be similar to LDS beliefs also?

I haven’t looked at the links yet, but this by itself doesn’t seem offensive to me.

Absolutely. My point was that the FLDS, once you take out the polygamy issue, have beliefs that are very similar to most conservative American religious traditions, which in themselves are simialr to each other.

Again – the statement originally attributed to me on which this thread was started was strictly about family values, not theology.

 

[RebeccaJ]

1. I am the Mormon scholar that this thread is addressing. I am a scholar because I have a PhD in Religious Studies, a master’s degree in Jewish Studies, graduated from the LDS Institute of Religion, and the LDS Seminary Training program. I am presently doing post-doctoral work in Roman Catholic theology at the University of Saint Thomas-Houston (a Catholic institution).

PhD and master’s degree, yes, those are credible. But graduating from institute and seminary? I graduated from mormon seminary so I guess I am a mormon scholar too! As is just about every 18 year old mormon on the planet.

The comparison would be to a high school degree, if even that. Mormon seminary is where I learned the more stranger things of my mormon background. The sort of things today that mormon leaders say, “we never taught that”. Right.

To me, that is the definition of mormon “scholarship”. Preach made up **** and then spend lots of “scholarship” time on proving why it was never doctrine.

1. In my testimony, I said that as far as family values, if you took away the polygamy, the FLDS would appear like Catholics and Protestants in their family values. I did not say they were alike in their theology. My PhD dissertation is considered by some people to be the definitive work in showing exactly how Mormonism may be the greatest heresy in historical tradition.

Though I agree with your point of heresy, FLDS are NOTHING like Catholics. FLDS appear to have no notion of human dignity, and are the worst of all things possible. Controlling humans to the point of slavery, while putting on a nice veneer of “Family Values”.

This is not Catholicism.

1. I have also said FLDS and LDS worship services are closer to each other in almost all respects than either of them is to the practices of any other religion, denomination, or sect.

No kidding, that is because they are the same religion. Your doctrines are the same. The only difference being one still practices polygamy, the other does not.

1. As one poster said, I suggest you worry more about the implications of the state’s arguments than debate the theological differences betwene Mormons and Roman Catholics. The state said in a filing yesterday that they took all the boys because they believed in a living prophet. Since a prophet in Mormonism has a lower position than the Pope does in Catholicism, there may be something in the state’s arguments that may be directly relevant to you.

This thread is about what you wrote, the similarities between FLDS and RC. There are other threads around regarding the state of TX and their actions. It is you who are trying to change the subject of this thread.

 

[wjwalshphd]

PhD and master’s degree, yes, those are credible. But graduating from institute and seminary? I graduated from mormon seminary so I guess I am a mormon scholar too! As is just about every 18 year old mormon on the planet…Though I agree with your point of heresy, FLDS are NOTHING like Catholics. .

1. I said I was a graduate of the LDS Seminary Training program, not a high school seminary student.
2. FLDS are nothing like Catholics? It sounds like they aren’t even human in your mind. Your remarks seem to lack a bit of Christian charity. Regardless, my point was whether you like the FLDS or despise them, the arguments the state of Texas used should be concerning to any people concerned about the freedom to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.

 

[RebeccaJ]

1. I said I was a graduate of the LDS Seminary Training program, not a high school seminary student.

Is this an academic discipline?

1. FLDS are nothing like Catholics? It sounds like they aren’t even human in your mind. Your remarks seem to lack a bit of Christian charity. Regardless, my point was whether you like the FLDS or despise them, the arguments the state of Texas used should be concerning to any people concerned about the freedom to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.

I said they are not Catholic. I didn’t say they, nor do I believe, that they are not human. Incest, forcing underage marriage, abandoning their male children, accusations and proven fraud…these are not Catholic practices, and not the practices of any conservatives I know, including LDS.

They are nothing more than a crime ring. Without the novelty of polygamy, they would be seen as just that.

 

[wjwalshphd]

I didn’t say they, nor do I believe, that they are not human. Incest, forcing underage marriage, abandoning their male children, accusations and proven fraud…these are not Catholic practices, and not the practices of any conservatives I know, including LDS.

They are nothing more than a crime ring. Without the novelty of polygamy, they would be seen as just that.

The vast majority of FLDS are not married to close blood relatives, have not been forced into marriage, married above the age of 18, and have not abandoned any male children.

It is well established that many catholic priests have molested children, and the Catholic Church as an institution, helped cover it up and facilitated further abuse of children. But in fairness, we shouldn’t say that all priests are molesters. Nor, just because a large numbers of Bishops helped hide the abuse, that all Bishops turned a blind eye.

If you were actually a fair minded person, you would not disparage every single member of a religion just because of accusations made against some members.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The vast majority of FLDS are not married to close blood relatives, have not been forced into marriage, married above the age of 18, and have not abandoned any male children.

It is well established that many catholic priests have molested children, and the Catholic Church as an institution, helped cover it up and facilitated further abuse of children. But in fairness, we shouldn’t say that all priests are molesters. Nor, just because a large numbers of Bishops helped hide the abuse, that all Bishops turned a blind eye.

If you were actually a fair minded person, you would not disparage every single member of a religion just because of accusations made against some members.

Warren Jeffs is their leader, a person who claims to be a prophet, and these people follow him as such. He is currently in prison, convicted, for arranging these marriages. He is the person who instructs boys to be kicked out on the streets. He is the person who leads this group in fraud. He is also the person who decreed that families be “reassigned”.

There is a vast difference between individuals in a religious organization making choices that are clearly defined as going against the teaching of that religious organization, such as the priest scandal. Abuse of children is NOT a Catholic doctrine. No priest has ever received instruction, claimed of divine origin, to abuse children.

Compare to Warren Jeffs, who claims to be a prophet, and instructs these things to be done as divine instruction. And these people follow his instructions, as though there is nothing wrong with any of it.

If you were a fair minded person you would be able to understand the distinction.

 

[wjwalshphd]

Warren Jeffs is their leader, a person who claims to be a prophet, and these people follow him as such. He is currently in prison, convicted, for arranging these marriages. He is the person who instructs boys to be kicked out on the streets. He is the person who leads this group in fraud. He is also the person who decreed that families be “reassigned”.

There is a vast difference between individuals in a religious organization making choices that are clearly defined as going against the teaching of that religious organization, such as the priest scandal. Abuse of children is NOT a Catholic doctrine. No priest has ever received instruction, claimed of divine origin, to abuse children.

Compare to Warren Jeffs, who claims to be a prophet, and instructs these things to be done as divine instruction. And these people follow his instructions, as though there is nothing wrong with any of it.

If you were a fair minded person you would be able to understand the distinction.

None of the abuses you cite are part of FLDS theology. If they occurred, they would be in direct contradiction of FLDS teachings. You keep saying “these people,” as though they are all the same. I remember when it was common to say “these blacks” or “these Jews”

I suggest you go to a Catholic university and study a little bit of Church history, as I did. The Catholic Church has a very long history of atrocities to which it freely admits.

As far as Warren Jeffs, he did not start this religion. If he was as really bad as you say, then you might feel sorry that the people who are simply following the religion of their anscestors got stuck with a bad leader.

A similar siutation would exist with Catholicism and all the bad popes it has had over the centuries. We don’t condemn Catholic religion as a whole because a pope is bad, and it is just as wrong to condemn a Mormon because he got stuck with a bad leader as well.