A somewhat graphic question about theology of the body - you were warned

[DL82]

I am engaged, and am starting to read more about the Church’s teachings on sex and marriage (my fiancee will probably see this post, as she posts on here too).

I have a sexual past, before my conversion, and so I am aware of the realities of the mechanics of the act too. I have a question, and I’m not sure if anyone’s addressed it before.

I know that the Church teaches that the final consummation of the act, ejaculation, has to happen in a place that would be open to life.

I know that when a man is becoming aroused, he (at least I) has 2 stages of ejaculation, the first is a lesser amount, and I think is supposed to act as lubricant, if he (I) continues, there is then a final ejaculation which accompanies orgasm.

Does the Church teach that both the first and second stages must happen in a way that will be open to life? In other words, is it literally a sin to ‘spill one’s seed’, any of it, even if in the end the act is consummated in a way that is open to life? Is it literally a case of ‘every sperm is sacred’, to quote the Monty Python song?

I’m sorry if this is rather graphic, but I couldn’t think of any other way to word the question. I only ask because, while the final consummation of arousal is relatively easy to predict, this preliminary, smaller ejaculation, is harder to prepare for. The only way I could think it could be done safely would be to begin with the sex act itself with very little foreplay.

 

[Totterman]

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Sorry for my bad english. Dear friend,that is a good question,to be honest,I have never,and I was married once,thought about it like that. I can only say that I don’t think that the first “ejuculation” has sperm enough to start life,but I am not a doctor. Maybe You should stop thinking about the whole thing,and start enjoying Your married life when it begins. Small things are those who gets out of hands to easy,and when married foreplay is OK,infact,it can be the best part of consumating the marriage. And next time,talk to Your girlfriend before You mail a question like this,or what do You think?

 

[LemonAndLime]

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Sorry for my bad english. Dear friend,that is a good question,to be honest,I have never,and I was married once,thought about it like that. I can only say that I don’t think that the first “ejuculation” has sperm enough to start life,but I am not a doctor. Maybe You should stop thinking about the whole thing,and start enjoying Your married life when it begins. Small things are those who gets out of hands to easy,and when married foreplay is OK,infact,it can be the best part of consumating the marriage. And next time,talk to Your girlfriend before You mail a question like this,or what do You think?

I just want to say that the first “ejaculation” is enough to start life. It only takes one tiny sperm and people can get pregnant even if they practice the “withdrawal” method (look it up if you don’t know what I mean).

 

[floresco]

It is necessary that the marital act be open to life. One is not responsible for accounting for every sperm involved.

( Your post was the fourth allusion to Monty Python I’ve run into today. It’s very strange. )

 

[broconsul]

I just want to say that the first “ejaculation” is enough to start life. It only takes one tiny sperm and people can get pregnant even if they practice the “withdrawal” method (look it up if you don’t know what I mean).

Ah… that’s questionable. The withdrawal method fails because people don’t do it “right.”

What “right” entails is:

1. Getting out in time.
2. Making sure there’s nothing in the pipe to begin with.

The pre-ejaculate, as far as I know (please direct me to evidence of the contrary!), has not been shown to have any sperm in it as long as the man has not climaxed recently, or has urinated in between sessions.

The withdrawal method fails when, even though the first requirement is compentently met, the second isn’t, as a result of back-to-back marital acts, where the pre-ejaculate picks up residual semen from the previous climax.

 

[Bookcat]

a note on the above…

Of course “withdrawal” is a form of birth control and is grave matter for mortal sin.

(not to say the posters were saying otherwise…but to make things clear)

---

As to the question of the original poster…there is only one “ejaculation”…(not the “two” you refer to) (this is what is meant by moral theology)

what you are talking about is not the ejaculation.

Such is not “the spilling of seed” but is part of the prep for intercourse. It is supposed work this way…

And no one is not to required to “jump to intercourse”…

(by the way regarding graphic posts…see rules for the forum)

 

[manualman]

It truly is amazing how many people get their catholic thinking on the matter from that Monty Python song! It simply isn’t so. If that were the case, sex wouldn’t be allowed during infertile times, would it?

Where you run into trouble is when you attempt to forcibly decouple sex from babies (i.e. intentional contraception). Such behavior inherently says to God in body language:
“God, we know you goofed when you accidently made sex and baby making intertwined, so we are going to go ahead and fix this little booboo you made in the human race so we can enjoy this gift of married sex unencumbered by consequences. Otherwise, it sure is a great gift though. Thanks God!”

 

[LemonAndLime]

The pre-ejaculate, as far as I know (please direct me to evidence of the contrary!), has not been shown to have any sperm in it as long as the man has not climaxed recently, or has urinated in between sessions.

.

Not true. That’s an urban myth. Are you American? I hear you guys don’t have very good sex education. You can get pregnant from the pre-ejaculate, hence why the withdrawal method is not a reliable one even if you did withdraw in time.
Net doctor:

If you employ this method every time, then at least you’re doing something to avoid pregnancy. But couples who rely solely on coitus interruptus do tend to have unwanted pregnancies. Also, they can get very frustrated by having to keep ‘pulling out’ at the last moment.

So, as a method of contraception, it’s certainly better than nothing! However, doctors do not recommend it because:

* it's easy to fail to withdraw early enough
* there may be sperms present in the 'dew drop' of fluid that a man produces when he is excited, but well before he actually ejaculates.

netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/coitusinterruptus.htm

Edit: The American website “planned parenthood” claims that if a man urinates inbetween ejaculation then yes it should remove any sperm leftover, but after looking at several websites none of the others say that. It also sounds very dubious to me and says that only “some” experts think that urinating can get rid of sperm.

 

[broconsul]

Not true. That’s an urban myth. Are you American? I hear you guys don’t have very good sex education. You can get pregnant from the pre-ejaculate, hence why the withdrawal method is not a reliable one even if you did withdraw in time.

netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/coitusinterruptus.htm

Edit: The American website “planned parenthood” claims that if a man urinates inbetween ejaculation then yes it should remove any sperm leftover, but after looking at several websites none of the others say that. It also sounds very dubious to me and says that only “some” experts think that urinating can get rid of sperm.

You didn’t provide evidence to the contrary. The site you cited doesn’t refute my point. In fact, it implicitly supports my post, specifically in the paragraph immediately preceding the heading “Does it work?” (Edit: see also the similarity between my two requirements and those listed in the article.)

There is no empirical evidence that I have seen (again, please feel free to point me in the direction of such evidence, however) that shows that pre-ejaculate untainted by a previous climax contains any sperm at all. This does not imply that urination makes same-night intercourse “safe” again with any certainty.

The anti-American condescension was unnecessary, by the way. Ignorance is ignorance, whether it’s English or American.

 

[DaveBj]

The first “ejaculation” that the OP referred to is not an ejaculation of semen; it is the production of lubricating fluid by the Cowper’s glands at the end of the penis. There can be sperm in this fluid, and it is possible for the female partner to get pregnant from it. This is not the ejaculation that the Catholic Church’s Theology of the Body is concerned with; it is only a preparation of the penis for the act of sexual intercourse.

(I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV on any other entertainment medium, but I do have a certificate in medical transcription, which involved coursework that explained these functions. If anyone wants to deny what I have posted, let him/her post quotations from a textbook on human sexual function.)

DaveBj

 

[broconsul]

The first “ejaculation” that the OP referred to is not an ejaculation of semen; it is the production of lubricating fluid by the Cowper’s glands at the end of the penis. There can be sperm in this fluid, and it is possible for the female partner to get pregnant from it. This is not the ejaculation that the Catholic Church’s Theology of the Body is concerned with; it is only a preparation of the penis for the act of sexual intercourse.

(I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV on any other entertainment medium, but I do have a certificate in medical transcription, which involved coursework that explained these functions. If anyone wants to deny what I have posted, let him/her post quotations from a textbook on human sexual function.)

DaveBj

As the leading medical expert in this thread p) would you agree that the lubricating fluid exits the Cowper’s glands without any sperm, and that any sperm carried by it is picked up from the urethra?

 

[DaveBj]

As the leading medical expert in this thread p) would you agree that the lubricating fluid exits the Cowper’s glands without any sperm, and that any sperm carried by it is picked up from the urethra?

Yes. The Cowper’s glands themselves do not produce sperm, and the fluid would have to pick them up elsewhere. Problem is that the little wigglers are so ubiquitous, that they could turn easily turn up in the urethra or outside on the end of the penis.

(I’m the leading medical expert on this thread? This thread is in T R O U B L E!!! )

DaveBj

 

[John21652]

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Sorry for my bad english. Dear friend,that is a good question,to be honest,I have never,and I was married once,thought about it like that. I can only say that I don’t think that the first “ejuculation” has sperm enough to start life,but I am not a doctor. Maybe You should stop thinking about the whole thing,and start enjoying Your married life when it begins. Small things are those who gets out of hands to easy,and when married foreplay is OK,infact,it can be the best part of consumating the marriage. And next time,talk to Your girlfriend before You mail a question like this,or what do You think?

Good advice. The Catholic Church teaches that you should consider your wife, so concentrate on her and whatever happens to you is the way God built you. Otherwise, you’ll end up neurotic and your wife will be perplexed and hurt by the whole experience.