A Specific Question About Heavenly Self-Identity

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It is the unique content of your mind that makes you “you”, not the possession of a mind, per se (that just makes you human).

Where does our individual being reside? we should ask, if we are to find what if anything of that being can survive death.

The first possibility is the body; we know and identify people by aspects of their bodies or parts thereof (fingerprints, eye scans, height, build, skin, etc.). But by definition, nothing of the body survives death; for that we must look elsewhere.

The second possibility is consciousness; as long as your stream of thought and perception is playing in your head, you are “you.” But this is a dead end too, as your head will stop working before you die, and the stream be cut off.

The only remaining possibility lies in the mind and memories. Even if you become unconscious, you are still you when you come out of it because you remember being “you.” Although we have no proof that this will carry over into the pneumatikon soma, it is at least conceivable, and is probably where post-mortal “youness” will reside.

ICXC NIKA
 
It is the unique content of your mind that makes you “you”, not the possession of a mind, per se (that just makes you human).

Where does our individual being reside? we should ask, if we are to find what if anything of that being can survive death.

The first possibility is the body; we know and identify people by aspects of their bodies or parts thereof (fingerprints, eye scans, height, build, skin, etc.). But by definition, nothing of the body survives death; for that we must look elsewhere.

The second possibility is consciousness; as long as your stream of thought and perception is playing in your head, you are “you.” But this is a dead end too, as your head will stop working before you die, and the stream be cut off.

The only remaining possibility lies in the mind and memories. Even if you become unconscious, you are still you when you come out of it because you remember being “you.” Although we have no proof that this will carry over into the pneumatikon soma, it is at least conceivable, and is probably where post-mortal “youness” will reside.

ICXC NIKA
Yes, I agree with this. Surely, the contents of the mind have a great deal to do with differentiating you from others. However, insofar as our memories inform our character and decisions, as well as prompting us to like certain things and dislike others, I would simply say that none of this can be dispensable in terms of who we are.

Even if our likes and dislikes are not pillars of who we are, they’re surely a direct consequence of it, and inseparable from it because of that directness.

In any case, I agree that there’s no contradiction involved in these things carrying over into Heaven, but as you rightly point out, there’s also no firm basis for such a belief; at least as far as I can tell. That’s part of what I’m looking for.
 
Yes, I agree with this. Surely, the contents of the mind have a great deal to do with differentiating you from others. However, insofar as our memories inform our character and decisions, as well as prompting us to like certain things and dislike others, I would simply say that none of this can be dispensable in terms of who we are.

Even if our likes and dislikes are not pillars of who we are, they’re surely a direct consequence of it, and inseparable from it because of that directness.

In any case, I agree that there’s no contradiction involved in these things carrying over into Heaven, but as you rightly point out, there’s also no firm basis for such a belief; at least as far as I can tell. That’s part of what I’m looking for.
Well good luck, as there is no proof for life after death in any case. We must take it on faith.

ICXC NIKA
 
I also don’t know what you mean by character so I will leave that alone.

Our decisions certainly shape the geometry of our life. But the decisions themselves do not carry over into eternal life if any.

Likes and dislikes are certainly part of who we are, but dislikes often arise from hurts we have had, or defects in our personality. CS Lewis did not “enjoy the society of small children”; he recognized this as a flaw in himself. I personally have an aversion to floral arrangements, because of many funerals I was dragged to in childhood, where there were mountains of flowers.

Dislikes based on past hurts or personality flaws cannot become part of our eternal self. (The same would apply to enjoyments of sinful activities.)

ICXC NIKA
 
Well good luck, as there is no proof for life after death in any case. We must take it on faith.

ICXC NIKA
I can’t be expected to let that one pass.

I believe that solid philosophical proofs can be provided of both God’s existence, and his motive for creating the universe (charity; which desires the true wellbeing of another over one’s own.) Once those things are establishing, providing evidence for the reality of the afterlife isn’t really so hard.

We know that some people do a tremendous amount of good in their lives, doing their best to love others and follow God. We also know that many of those people suffer horribly; sometimes because of their attempts to do the right thing and follow God’s will. However, we know that God’s will is for us to become better; not worse, and being more hurt and more persecuted is the same thing as being worse. We know this because we “get worse” when we contract malaria or cancer, and if being hurt by a disease makes us worse, so does being hurt by our fellow man.

Here’s the equation we’re left with.

P1. Following God’s will is beneficial for us.
P2. Following God’s will sometimes leads to persecution and death.
C. Therefore, persecution and death are sometimes beneficial for us.

However, it would be impossible for persecution and death to be beneficial for us if death was the end of our existence, and there were no other life in which the persecution was over. Therefore, there must be an afterlife, in which God protects the faithful, and finishes the work that was begun here; a life in which following the will of God does benefit us directly. Saint Paul likewise expresses the futility of life without the afterlife.

“If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.”
1 Corinthians 15:19

So we know that Heaven exists, and that at least some people go there.
I also don’t know what you mean by character so I will leave that alone.

Our decisions certainly shape the geometry of our life. But the decisions themselves do not carry over into eternal life if any.

Likes and dislikes are certainly part of who we are, but dislikes often arise from hurts we have had, or defects in our personality. CS Lewis did not “enjoy the society of small children”; he recognized this as a flaw in himself. I personally have an aversion to floral arrangements, because of many funerals I was dragged to in childhood, where there were mountains of flowers.

Dislikes based on past hurts or personality flaws cannot become part of our eternal self. (The same would apply to enjoyments of sinful activities.)

ICXC NIKA
The problem with this approach is that it makes man little more than a broken toy soldier which, if fixed, will always look more or less the same.

As for delighting in sinful activities, let me propose a thought experiment, to help make my point a little clearer.

Suppose that Barrabas the revolutionary stumbled out of Pilate’s presence furious over having been robbed of the chance to die for his cause, and absolutely incensed at Jesus and all he’d ever done. Suppose that he’d spent his whole life seeking greatness and mighty victories, and eventually concluded that only the Romans were a foe of sufficient scope, which was what got him arrested as a revolutionary and murderer in the first place.

Suppose that he spent the next three days stewing in his rage over having had someone else die in his place. Suppose that he wanted nothing but to fight and die in a great battle.

Then supposed that after three days of walking those streets in a daze, he felt a gust of wind at his back, and found himself surrounded by a penetrating light.

He turns to look at the figure, and falls to his knees in awe, because he can see the glory with his eyes, in spite of having looked down on Jesus in the past, he finally realizes that he holds the secret.

“Can you not see glory when it’s hidden?” he hears.

“No.” he admits, “I can’t, but tell me what to do to obtain it. Whatever it is, I will do it, master.”

This probably didn’t occur, but suppose for a moment that it did. This man, who is incapable of seeing the world in any terms but power and glory, and derives no joy from anything but victories. According to Saint Paul, if he chooses to spend the rest of his life as the apostles did; giving his life for the truth of the gospel, preaching and spreading the word of God, he will be rewarded for it. After all, Saint Paul said “God will reward each man according to what he has done.” Not according to his motives for doing it.

Yet, at the end of it all, when all is said and done, no matter what he does, his motives remain the same. He wants power and victory for himself, and nothing else will suffice.

Would such a man be capable of receiving any reward from God, without being effectively brainwashed?

Then, too, suppose a man heard the parable of the pearl of great price, and nothing else; taking the parable entirely literally. He says that he will commit his Earthly life to Jesus, if only he can have that pearl at the end of it. He proceeds to live his life like the purest saint, but at last, when he opens his eyes on eternity, the only words on his lips are “where’s the pearl?”

Bzkoss236 made a good point about how no human being has entirely unique desires, but I would say that we need to also take account of the vast difference between the human desires that exist. To suggest that some desires are simply reprobate by their nature, is, I think, too simplistic, and relegates large sections of humanity to the “to be brainwashed” pile of eternity.
 
Rather, I prefer to take the view that St. Thomas Aquinas took; a view that I’m only just remembering fully. It’s the view that all desires are for the good, but that we may misunderstand the true character of our own desires as a result of (A.) being unable to get them without sinning, or (B.) mentally associating them with some sin, because we usually see them depicted that way, or because of the lies of the devil. God does not fulfill our mistakes with regard to our desires. Rather, what he fulfills is the good desires themselves, which truly lie at the base of even the most odd and bizarre of cravings. Even cravings that might lead us to sin in this life would only lead us further into virtue if we really understood their true nature.

I like this explanation, as it fully preserves our likes and dislikes, and apparently, every aspect of our personhood. Still, it’s one of those explanations that seems to be contradicted by certain scripture messages. Are there any good reasons that you can think of for not being concerned about this?
 
Happiness is this- thowing away all sense of the ‘I’. We are dissolved totally into God, like a drop of water into a sea.

Whenever a person is ecstatic in this life (like listening to music, being drunk, making love, in mystical prayer, asleep) the sense of ‘I’ disappears, although not totally, since it is only a partial ecstasy. The real happiness is to leave behind the prison of the self, the world, the body, and the mind, leaving behind one’s name, mind, memories, hopes, fears, and to be united/annhilated with God who alone truly IS. Eventually, we leave ‘everything’ behind, every pain, every desire, everthing that makes us an ‘I’. That is Heaven.
 
Happiness is this- thowing away all sense of the ‘I’. We are dissolved totally into God, like a drop of water into a sea.

Whenever a person is ecstatic in this life (like listening to music, being drunk, making love, in mystical prayer, asleep) the sense of ‘I’ disappears, although not totally, since it is only a partial ecstasy. The real happiness is to leave behind the prison of the self, the world, the body, and the mind, leaving behind one’s name, mind, memories, hopes, fears, and to be united/annhilated with God who alone truly IS. Eventually, we leave ‘everything’ behind, every pain, every desire, everthing that makes us an ‘I’. That is Heaven.
Even if this were true (and I don’t think it is,) you’re talking about epistemology, (how we see/know things,) and I’m talking about ontology (how things really are.) Even if we may be happier when ignoring ourselves, (a big “if,”) nevertheless, the fact remains that we can’t be happy at all if we don’t exist.
 
Even if this were true (and I don’t think it is,) you’re talking about epistemology, (how we see/know things,) and I’m talking about ontology (how things really are.) Even if we may be happier when ignoring ourselves, (a big “if,”) nevertheless, the fact remains that we can’t be happy at all if we don’t exist.
Well, you can’t take your brain with you, and that’s what holds your memories, thoughts, wishes, emotions, etc., which makes you “you” (at least in the conventional sense). “Qia nec ops, nec ratio, nec sapientia erunt apud infernos, quo tu properas.”

In a ‘transcendental’ sense the soul survives, but what could it have which identifies it with the current ‘you’?
 
Well, you can’t take your brain with you, and that’s what holds your memories, thoughts, wishes, emotions, etc., which makes you “you” (at least in the conventional sense). “Qia nec ops, nec ratio, nec sapientia erunt apud infernos, quo tu properas.”

In a ‘transcendental’ sense the soul survives, but what could it have which identifies it with the current ‘you’?
Isn’t the soul essentially the image of God, which is in part our rational faculties? Also, I think the saying “grace perfects nature” is essential to this topic. Grace doesn’t add, it moulds. Otherwise, yes, the perfect me would be identical to the perfect you. I struggle with the idea that the saint’s wills are somehow God’s will though, because God always answers their prayers. I can’t wrap my head around how they could be right all the time without basically praying to God for Himself.
 
Well, you can’t take your brain with you, and that’s what holds your memories, thoughts, wishes, emotions, etc., which makes you “you” (at least in the conventional sense). “Qia nec ops, nec ratio, nec sapientia erunt apud infernos, quo tu properas.”

In a ‘transcendental’ sense the soul survives, but what could it have which identifies it with the current ‘you’?
I don’t think it’s ever been proven that there’s no mind, separate from the brain, in which the memories and thoughts of the human person reside. I would hold to this view unless there were a very good reason not to, because phantasms are metaphysical in nature, and the brain is not.
Isn’t the soul essentially the image of God, which is in part our rational faculties? Also, I think the saying “grace perfects nature” is essential to this topic. Grace doesn’t add, it moulds. Otherwise, yes, the perfect me would be identical to the perfect you. I struggle with the idea that the saint’s wills are somehow God’s will though, because God always answers their prayers. I can’t wrap my head around how they could be right all the time without basically praying to God for Himself.
The Summa Theologica refers to the soul as “that which gives life to the body,” and the “spirit” as all the things you mention.

You’ve also gotten me to think about another dimension to this discussion; namely, if we all learn to like the true nature of the things we like, and to not dislike the good nature of the things we previously disliked, do we still have likes and dislikes, or is it just that they’re not as relevant to things in eternity? This problem would threaten to make the saints identical or nearly-identical, and we’d be right back where we started.
 
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