A suicide..."who You called from this life..."

[DaisymaeD]

Some years back there was a suicide in our parish, everybody knew about it–very tragic circumstances. She was given a funeral Mass, etc., lots of outpouring from the community.

Anyhow, a year later I happened to attend a daily Mass that was offered for her, and in the Eucharistic Prayer the priest referenced “…[realname] , who You called from this life…”

Was that correct? She wasn’t called from this life, she committed suicide. Would somebody please explain?

(BTW, I’m not questioning the appropriateness of offering prayers and Masses for her, just the wording of that particular prayer. We don’t despair of God’s mercy)

 

[InThePew]

Anyhow, a year later I happened to attend a daily Mass that was offered for her, and in the Eucharistic Prayer the priest referenced “…[realname] , who You called from this life…”

Was that correct? She wasn’t called from this life, she committed suicide. Would somebody please explain?)

The wording is from Eucharistic Prayer II which has a particular insert for uses in Masses for the Dead - all well and good except, as you note, in this particular case it really doesn’t work! I imagine that the priest has simply used the standard wording without realising. Often, a mass intention is simply provided to the priest without any details regarding the person or their death and so the priest simply uses the standard wording from the missal. That said, the other EPs do however include prayers for the dead and a name can easily be slipped into these where the wording above would be inappropriate. The difficulty as I see it is ensuring that the priest is aware of this beforehand.

 

[pianistclare]

The difficulty is that people are quick to judge. This person might have been mentally unstable for all you know.
It’s not for us to say what the “limits” of God’s mercy are.

Would one tell a child who lost a parent to suicide that God couldn’t possibly forgive them?
That’s WAY above our pay grade.

It’s a prayer offered for the dead. Instead of picking apart the meaning, just pray for the person.
When people complain that priests mess with the words of the Mass, then you expect that he should “edit” the Eucharistic prayer to suit people who think this person went to hell?

Come on.
That’s just horrible.

 

[tweedlealice]

Some years back there was a suicide in our parish, everybody knew about it–very tragic circumstances. She was given a funeral Mass, etc., lots of outpouring from the community.

Anyhow, a year later I happened to attend a daily Mass that was offered for her, and in the Eucharistic Prayer the priest referenced “…[realname] , who You called from this life…”

Was that correct? She wasn’t called from this life, she committed suicide. Would somebody please explain?

(BTW, I’m not questioning the appropriateness of offering prayers and Masses for her, just the wording of that particular prayer. We don’t despair of God’s mercy)

I have lived through the suicide of my 33yo son in law. They teach now that a suicide is mental illness and the person does not go to hell. So, actually, George who was married to my daughter who abused him, was thinking God is calling me home. I can’t take this anymore. That is one way of thinking of it. But I really think it was the correct info wasn’t passed on to the priest.
May God have mercy on us for His sorrowful Passion and for all the whole world.
Mercy Lord and forgiveness.
in Jesus name
tweedlealice

 

[Richard_White]

I have lived through the suicide of my 33yo son in law. They teach now that a suicide is mental illness and the person does not go to hell. So, actually, George who was married to my daughter who abused him, was thinking God is calling me home. I can’t take this anymore. That is one way of thinking of it. But I really think it was the correct info wasn’t passed on to the priest.
May God have mercy on us for His sorrowful Passion and for all the whole world.
Mercy Lord and forgiveness.
in Jesus name
tweedlealice

Not to be mean-spirited in the face of such a tragedy. I am so sorry for your loss. However, the Church has not changed her teaching regarding suicide and its sinfulness if done in a certain way. Yes, the Church recognizes that it usually stems from mental illness and is therefore not as harsh regarding it as in earlier times. Regardless, the Church does NOT teach that someone who commits suicide is never culpable for their actions and never goes to Hell because of it.

May God bless you forever and have mercy on your son-in-law’s soul!

 

[DaisymaeD]

Thanks for the clarification, and to those of you who have lived through this type of tragedy, I’m so sorry for your losses.

Like I said, my question was strictly about the wording of the prayer in this circumstance. We never presume on nor despair of God’s mercy.

 

[Catholic1954]

Thanks for the clarification, and to those of you who have lived through this type of tragedy, I’m so sorry for your losses.

Like I said, my question was strictly about the wording of the prayer in this circumstance. We never presume on nor despair of God’s mercy.

If that was the actual Eucharistic prayer, then the priest has no authority to change, add or subtract any of the words, no matter what the circumstances.

 

[TimothyH]

There is nothing wrong with that prayer. It is absolutely perfect.

God doesn’t call children to die of leukemia, people studying scripture in a Baptist Church to be shot or people on a beach to be beheaded by terrorists any more than he calls someone to commit suicide. Very few have the favor of a peaceful death, yet everyone dies one way or another.

It doesn’t matter how we die. Everyone goes there. God calls everyone to himself in the end.

-Tim-

 

[KendraDZ1902]

The difficulty is that people are quick to judge. This person might have been mentally unstable for all you know.
It’s not for us to say what the “limits” of God’s mercy are.

Would one tell a child who lost a parent to suicide that God couldn’t possibly forgive them?
That’s WAY above our pay grade.

It’s a prayer offered for the dead. Instead of picking apart the meaning, just pray for the person.
When people complain that priests mess with the words of the Mass, then you expect that he should “edit” the Eucharistic prayer to suit people who think this person went to hell?

Come on.
That’s just horrible.

Absolutely this!!

I have actually admitted myself into a behavioral health hospital because of contemplating suicide. My suicidal thoughts stem from intrusive thoughts. No, you aren’t in your right mind when you are having a panic attack in the hallway because that is the “safest” place (since there is nothing in the hallway I could get my hands on to harm myself) because you really want to end your life because of the thoughts in your head.

It is NO ONE’S place to judge what I went through and sometimes go through (I understand intrusive thoughts now and I don’t go rushing to the hospital, panic still happens, though) and it is NO ONE’S place to judge where people who commit suicide go. I agree it was way above our pay grade and not charitable AT ALL.

 

[InThePew]

If that was the actual Eucharistic prayer, then the priest has no authority to change, add or subtract any of the words, no matter what the circumstances.

That is more or less the wording used in Eucharistic Prayer II. However, the priest has the option (provided he is given a heads up) to use another Eucharistic Prayer (such as EP IV) which doesn’t use that wording. The difficulty is that EP IV doesn’t include provision for the name of the deceased although a priest could just include that as a sort of add on to the line “remember also those who have died in the peace of you Christ” since all he would be doing is referring to the fact that mass is being offered for that person.

 

[pianistclare]

There is nothing wrong with that prayer. It is absolutely perfect.

God doesn’t call children to die of leukemia, people studying scripture in a Baptist Church to be shot or people on a beach to be beheaded by terrorists any more than he calls someone to commit suicide. Very few have the favor of a peaceful death, yet everyone dies one way or another.

It doesn’t matter how we die. Everyone goes there. God calls everyone to himself in the end.

-Tim-

Thank you. Well stated.

 

[DaisymaeD]

Again, thank you for the clarifications.

Again–I was not in any way judging the girl.

Please don’t read more into this question than there is.

Mental health issues are no joke and they’re not to be taken lightly. They cause a great deal of suffering to the person afflicted and family and friends. A lot of these conditions are poorly understood in the community, and few have a “cure”. That is a fact.

At the same time, it is perfectly valid for a sincere spiritual seeker to ask a question about the WORDING of a prayer, in light of Catholic teaching, and at the same time not be judging the person the prayer is about.

God bless.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

I have lived through the suicide of my 33yo son in law. They teach now that a suicide is mental illness and the person does not go to hell. So, actually, George who was married to my daughter who abused him, was thinking God is calling me home. I can’t take this anymore. That is one way of thinking of it. But I really think it was the correct info wasn’t passed on to the priest.
May God have mercy on us for His sorrowful Passion and for all the whole world.
Mercy Lord and forgiveness.
in Jesus name
tweedlealice

The Church DOES NOT teach that suicide is mental illness and that the person does not go to hell. The Church still teaches that suicide is murder and a mortal sin that merits Hell as other mortal sins. What the Church does say is that She recognizes that mental illness can influence a person’s decision to commit suicide and thus may decrease the person’s full consent of the will, so we can still have hope in God’s mercy.

 

[johnnyc176]

Again, thank you for the clarifications.

Again–I was not in any way judging the girl.

Please don’t read more into this question than there is.

Mental health issues are no joke and they’re not to be taken lightly. They cause a great deal of suffering to the person afflicted and family and friends. A lot of these conditions are poorly understood in the community, and few have a “cure”. That is a fact.

At the same time, it is perfectly valid for a sincere spiritual seeker to ask a question about the WORDING of a prayer, in light of Catholic teaching, and at the same time not be judging the person the prayer is about.

God bless.

You are correct. It’s funny how sometimes those that lecture against ‘judging’ are themselves doing a bit of ‘judging’. My suggestion would be to just ask your priest about it but if you do not want to do that there is a priest who writes a blog called Fr. Z (google Fr Z) who writes a lot about the liturgy and the sacraments. Contact him with your question and there is a good chance that you will get a detailed answer.

 

[MaryT777]

This is one of the saddest threads I have read.

To think someone who committed suicide doesn’t “deserve” the wording of a Eucharistic prayer.

I pray you are never in the situation to have a loved one take their life. If so I don’t think the words of a prayer and its appropriateness would enter your mind.

That said, I do know you have reiterated that it was a sincere question so I hope you have received your answer.

Mary.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, if we’re going to question priests on whether or not they are able to pray the Mass according to their training, that’s a slippery slope. You can’t decry that priests do everything wrong when it suits you.
It’s not anyone’s place to criticize or to “judge” the way a priest says Mass for us.
That’s the job of his Bishop.
It’s the Eucharistic prayer. You can’t mess with it. Legalistic people need to remember that when you argue for “by the book” you can’t really complain when the priest prays “by the book”.

Backtracking doesn’t help anything.
The issue is “everyone knew she committed suicide”.
Are we now going to read through the Mass intentions and decide which Masses we should go to based on what the intention is?
Ludicrous, and MOST uncharitable.

I think the OP should bring it up with the Pastor.
I think they would be very surprised at what he says.
I’m out.
May those who perish because of suicide rest in peace.
May God have indeed mercy when he calls all of us home.

 

[DaisymaeD]

I should probably just drop it, because I’m starting to think that certain people around here are just misunderstanding me on purpose.

Where did I say the girl didn’t deserve prayer? Go ahead and re read my posts and find the offending sentence. I’ll wait.

Second, how do any of you think you know so much about my life? How do you know if I’ve ever been touched by suicide or euthanasia or mental illness? Some people seem to be making a lot of assumptions.

Also, how do you know that that wording might not be an occasion for scandal, making it sound like suicide is a perfectly valid option? Especially in this day and age when the people in the pro-euthanasia crowd are gaining traction more and more. And as a family member, I wouldn’t find that wording comforting at all–the assumption that God called my loved one from this life through suicide? How is that supposed to be comforting?

Look, I realize that over the Internet, it can be hard to sense tone and sincerity behind a post, but when the OP comes back time and again to explain, and people are still taking offense, and haven’t read all the previous posts, it can scare a bystander away from asking their own sincere questions.

Especially since CAF is supposed to be a safe place to question.

 

[Sirach2]

Some years back there was a suicide in our parish, everybody knew about it–very tragic circumstances. She was given a funeral Mass, etc., lots of outpouring from the community.

This bothers you. Otherwise you would only be questioning the priest’s lawful use of the Eucharistic Prayer, without ad-libbing the details. You need to do some soul-searching here.

Anyhow, a year later I happened to attend a daily Mass that was offered for her, and in the Eucharistic Prayer the priest referenced “…[realname] , who You called from this life…”
Was that correct?

Perfectly correct and lawful to use the wording of the E.P.

Aren’t you assuming the priest remembered the name and details of the decedent and should have (for your sake!) chosen another E.P.? How many of the “everybody knew” are knocking at his door objecting to the use of his E.P. several years later?

 

[pianistclare]

I should probably just drop it, because I’m starting to think that certain people around here are just misunderstanding me on purpose.

Where did I say the girl didn’t deserve prayer? Go ahead and re read my posts and find the offending sentence. I’ll wait.

Second, how do any of you think you know so much about my life? How do you know if I’ve ever been touched by suicide or euthanasia or mental illness? Some people seem to be making a lot of assumptions.

Also, how do you know that that wording might not be an occasion for scandal, making it sound like suicide is a perfectly valid option? Especially in this day and age when the people in the pro-euthanasia crowd are gaining traction more and more. And as a family member, I wouldn’t find that wording comforting at all–the assumption that God called my loved one from this life through suicide? How is that supposed to be comforting?

Look, I realize that over the Internet, it can be hard to sense tone and sincerity behind a post, but when the OP comes back time and again to explain, and people are still taking offense, and haven’t read all the previous posts, it can scare a bystander away from asking their own sincere questions.

Especially since CAF is supposed to be a safe place to question.

It was in poor taste.
Period.

And YES, I have been affected by suicide.
And YES, my kids cried for months believing their daddy was in hell because of others who whispered about it.
So yeah…God bless that priest. He prayed a lovely Mass except for some who thought it was “scandalous”.
I also worry that people lurking on CAF may think we’re all harsh and legalistic and can’t the forest for the trees.
Something for YOU to think about.
I read and re-read the original post. Sorry. That “oh I didn’t mean it that way” doesn’t cut it.
The bottom line is, unless you went to seminary and are schooled in compassion, rubrics, and Pastoral theology, one should keep their liturgical criticisms of a priest quiet.
Masses said for the deceased are not categorized by cause of death.
PERIOD.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The difficulty is that people are quick to judge. This person might have been mentally unstable for all you know.
It’s not for us to say what the “limits” of God’s mercy are.

Would one tell a child who lost a parent to suicide that God couldn’t possibly forgive them?
That’s WAY above our pay grade.

It’s a prayer offered for the dead. Instead of picking apart the meaning, just pray for the person.
When people complain that priests mess with the words of the Mass, then you expect that he should “edit” the Eucharistic prayer to suit people who think this person went to hell?

Come on.
That’s just horrible.

She said:

(BTW, I’m not questioning the appropriateness of offering prayers and Masses for her, just the wording of that particular prayer. We don’t despair of God’s mercy)

So she was only asking a legitimate question.

And YES, I have been affected by suicide.
And YES, my kids cried for months believing their daddy was in hell because of others who whispered about it.

That’s just terrible, Clare.

People need to get it is your responsibility to explain to this your kids, and it is insensitive and irresponsible for people to say such things in front of someone else’s kids like that. It’s amazing what people think cannot be overheard.

So yeah…God bless that priest. He prayed a lovely Mass except for some who thought it was “scandalous”.

Scandalous to pray for someone? You’ve got to be kidding…

How would they like it if that was their loved one?

Then that’s their problem.

I also worry that people lurking on CAF may think we’re all harsh and legalistic and can’t the forest for the trees.

I have seen/received numerous complaints about this site from top to bottom precisely for those reasons. Frankly, I am quite disappointed in many aspects of this site, including taking questions personally.

This site cannot be both a sounding board for frustration and a geninue part of the Gospel mission assigned to us by Christ.

Something for YOU to think about.
I read and re-read the original post. Sorry. That “oh I didn’t mean it that way” doesn’t cut it.

I have found it quite helpful, Clare, to not question the intention of posters without good reason. It’s problematic whenever a user has to reference someone using YOU in all caps.

The bottom line is, unless you went to seminary and are schooled in compassion, rubrics, and Pastoral theology, one should keep their liturgical criticisms of a priest quiet.
Masses said for the deceased are not categorized by cause of death.
PERIOD.

All she was doing was asking a question and even put in the extra effort to note her good faith.