A Tale of Two Eucharists

[Pax]

Lazer:

Do you believe that water is made up of two hydrogen molecules and one oxyen molecule?

I have no problem with the scientific definition of the water molecule. H2O is cool with me. Nevertheless, I have a problem applying science and the microscope to a miracle. Miracles, by definition, defy scientific scrutiny and explanation.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Dear Socrates4Jesus,

You have received an infraction at Catholic Answers Forums.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3423252

Reason:​

Uncharitable Post(s)

Socrates4Jesus,
I think that you know better than to post something like this. It violates the Forum Rules.

CONDUCT RULES

1. 
   *]Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language, rude comments and innuendo.
   *]Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.
   *]Do not use character substitutions in proper names, such as “Amerikkkans” or “Demonrats” or “Repubicans” etc.
   *]Inappropriate or offensive graphics, links, or profile entries are not permitted.
   *]Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (especially replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).
   *]Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
   *]Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
   Very sincerely,
   Michael Francis
   Apologetics Moderator

1. 
   This infraction is worth 5 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.
   
   This action is visible only to Mods, Admins and you. Regular forum members will not see it.
   
   Sincerely,
   Catholic Answers Forums

1. 
   I’ve received this warning, but have not been told what i wrote that was uncharitable. I have replied to the message asking what i wrote that was uncharitable, but have thus far not received a response.
   
   I think it would be unwise to continue asking questions and replying to all of your posts until i know what sin i have committed, so that i might ask forgiveness for it from any of you who have been offended and repent.
   
   Please, anyone, tell me what i wrote that is a sin and why.
   
   

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Question 12.

What sin have i committed in this discussion, and why is it a sin?

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

(John 18:24)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed this. There is a difference between a question rooted in a search for truth and a question designed to prove your point or rooted in unbelief. If you’re asking a question to advance a point, then I believe in the “get-to-the-point” method.

(Edited)

This is not the kind of question a person who is “agonizing” over the Eucharist asks. This is the type of question asked by a person who has a clear Protestant view of the Eucharist, has rejected the Catholic view, and is trying to demonstrate that the Catholic view does not make sense. I personally found this question - and several other questions - very offensive. It is a mockery of Catholic teaching. In fact, the tone of this question is practically in the same vein as the questions the Jews asked when Jesus made the following statements:

**41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” **
**42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” **

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

These questions the Jews asked were not rooted in a search for truth, but in rejection. They rejected that Christ came from heaven and they rejected His teaching regarding the Eucharist. Their rejection of Jesus’s divine origin automatically means that they will reject anything that He teaches.

God Bless,
Michael

May i ask what i said that offended you, Michael, and why was it was offensive?

 

[DrPiano]

Question 12.

What sin have i committed in this discussion, and why is it a sin?

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

(John 18:24)

More than one person on the boards in that topic found many of your questions and even more of your pictures offensive to their faith. I thought many of them were in bad taste. While I wasn’t the one to report you, I can understand why others would. Questions like “Is your God a loaf of bread” or “Is Jesus the Pillsbury Dough Boy” are VERY offensive. It felt like (and feels like) your main goal is to ridicule our faith rather than really look for the truth.

Others commented within the thread on some of the many comments they found offfensive. I’m not sure whether those posts are still there, but those were two questions that I know most found offensive.

By the way, I’m sending this as both a PM and posting it to the thread.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

(Edited)
… Socrates, I don’t know what you’re really trying to do here. You say you are trying to find the truth, yet your every comment is hostile to Catholic teaching. Now most people that I have ever come across that were honestly seeking to know the truth about the Church weren’t constantly attacking Her doctrines, but were asking questions, asking for evidence, and then spending time on their own thinking about the evidence we provided. Maybe you really are sincerely seeking to know the truth, but you ought to know that if that’s what you are doing, you don’t come across that way. You come across as an Evangelical who wants to try to disprove Catholic teachings, either for fun or to convert some Catholics. …

Please tell me, Lazer, what i have said that is hostile to the Roman Catholic faith, and why.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

More than one person on the boards in that topic found many of your questions and even more of your pictures offensive to their faith. I thought many of them were in bad taste. While I wasn’t the one to report you, I can understand why others would. Questions like “Is your God a loaf of bread” or “Is Jesus the Pillsbury Dough Boy” are VERY offensive. It felt like (and feels like) your main goal is to ridicule our faith rather than really look for the truth.

Others commented within the thread on some of the many comments they found offfensive. I’m not sure whether those posts are still there, but those were two questions that I know most found offensive.

By the way, I’m sending this as both a PM and posting it to the thread.

Thank you, Doc, for answering. I hope you don’t mind my asking, but i’m a little dismayed by people taking offense. I’m just trying to understand.

Before i asked if God was bread, i asked:

1. 
   *]Is God an animal (e.g., the Lamb of God)?
   *]Is God a rock (e.g., the Jewish Temple)?
   *]Is God air (e.g., wind that blows where no one knows)?
   *]Is God water (e.g., living water)?
   *]Is God fire (e.g., a consuming fire)?
   *]Is God the sun or moon (e.g., the light of the world)?
   *]Is God vegetation (e.g., the vine)?
   Please tell me, which of these questions, if any, were also offensive, and why.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m not asking you to speak for anyone else, Doc, i just want your honest opinion. Give it to me straight, please. The medicine of truth might hurt, but i’m pretty thick skinned.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What about you, Tami, or you, Po? Were any of these other questions offensive, or just my asking whether God is really bread?

Please give me your frank opinion, even if it is critical of me.

 

[truthsilence]

What about you, Tami, or you, Po? Were any of these other questions offensive, or just my asking whether God is really bread?

Please give me your frank opinion, even if it is critical of me.

Dear Soc,

As I also wrote to you in a PM, I believe your ‘Pillsbury Dough Boy’ comment was ‘over the edge’ or ‘beyond’ what most people of the Catholic Faith would consider respectful. I also think saying ‘bread’ vs ‘a loaf of bread’ makes a difference.

FWIW I do believe in your stated intentions, soc. But sometimes, it can be hard to tell.

Prayers,
Tami

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Dear Soc,

As I also wrote to you in a PM, I believe your ‘Pillsbury Dough Boy’ comment was ‘over the edge’ or ‘beyond’ what most people of the Catholic Faith would consider respectful. I also think saying ‘bread’ vs ‘a loaf of bread’ makes a difference.

FWIW I do believe in your stated intentions, soc. But sometimes, it can be hard to tell.

Prayers,
Tami

Thank you, Tami. I do apologize for using the metaphor of the Doe Boy. I shall not commit that sin again. I hope you will be able to not hold that against me.

Please tell me (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to) why is the word loaf offensive? Would it have been less rude if i asked, “Is God a bowl of bread wafers?” or “Is God a bunch of bread hosts?”

Like i said, i’m dismayed and trying to understand. Maybe it comes from not setting foot in a Catholic Church since i was a kid. Maybe i just cannot understand the affection you have for the hosts.

 

[DrPiano]

Thank you, Doc, for answering. I hope you don’t mind my asking, but i’m a little dismayed by people taking offense. I’m just trying to understand.

Before i asked if God was bread, i asked:

1. 
   *]Is God an animal (e.g., the Lamb of God)?
   *]Is God a rock (e.g., the Jewish Temple)?
   *]Is God air (e.g., wind that blows where no one knows)?
   *]Is God water (e.g., living water)?
   *]Is God fire (e.g., a consuming fire)?
   *]Is God the sun or moon (e.g., the light of the world)?
   *]Is God vegetation (e.g., the vine)?
   Please tell me, which of these questions, if any, were also offensive, and why.

1. 
   All of these questions have the potential for being offensive. Catholics are Christians and like all other Christians hold the basic tenets of the Christian faith. If you are Christian, you know the answer to all of these is no. No, God is not an anima, a rock, air, the sun or moon, or vegetation. No one responding to this topic believes that he is. To ask these questions is to imply that Catholics are animists or pantheists. Thus, these questions can be taken to be offensive. In a question to me (is the Eucharist the Father) you implied that Catholics (or at least me) did not believe in the Trinity.
   
   When you then take them further (as your later questions following these have done) and accompany these with the pictures that you did, yes, they become quite inflammatory. The other wonderful posters have tried to refrain from judging your intentions but are starting to question your sincerity. Many of us on here have gone through a period of time where we’ve questioned the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the Eucharist. Oddly enough, I think many of us have ended up asking the same questions (that the others have). We see a major difference between the types of questions we asked and the types of questions you are asking. We sought to understand what the doctrine is. You appear to be attempting to tear it down. Thus, many have become disillusioned with this thread and you received censure from the moderator.
   
   I suggest that you go back through your questions and really pray about your approach. Put yourself in our shoes and ask yourself “if someone were asking these questions of me in this manner, might I take offense?”
   
   Once you’ve done that, go back through our responses. Several of us have tried to lay out very clearly what we believe happens when God consecrates the bread and wine through the priest. As you read, keep the Nicene Creed (which we all affirm) in mind:
   

   We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
   maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
   We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
   eternally begotten of the Father,
   God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
   begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
   Through him all things were made.
   For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
   by the power of the Holy Spirit
   he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
   For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
   he suffered, died, and was buried.
   On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
   he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
   He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
   and his kingdom will have no end.
   We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
   who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
   With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
   He has spoken through the Prophets.
   We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
   We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
   We look for the resurrection of the dead,
   and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

All of these questions have the potential for being offensive. Catholics are Christians and like all other Christians hold the basic tenets of the Christian faith. If you are Christian, you know the answer to all of these is no. No, God is not an anima, a rock, air, the sun or moon, or vegetation. No one responding to this topic believes that he is. To ask these questions is to imply that Catholics are animists or pantheists. Thus, these questions can be taken to be offensive. In a question to me (is the Eucharist the Father) you implied that Catholics (or at least me) did not believe in the Trinity.

When you then take them further (as your later questions following these have done) and accompany these with the pictures that you did, yes, they become quite inflammatory. The other wonderful posters have tried to refrain from judging your intentions but are starting to question your sincerity. Many of us on here have gone through a period of time where we’ve questioned the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the Eucharist. Oddly enough, I think many of us have ended up asking the same questions (that the others have). We see a major difference between the types of questions we asked and the types of questions you are asking. We sought to understand what the doctrine is. You appear to be attempting to tear it down. Thus, many have become disillusioned with this thread and you received censure from the moderator.

I suggest that you go back through your questions and really pray about your approach. Put yourself in our shoes and ask yourself “if someone were asking these questions of me in this manner, might I take offense?”

Once you’ve done that, go back through our responses. Several of us have tried to lay out very clearly what we believe happens when God consecrates the bread and wine through the priest. As you read, keep the Nicene Creed (which we all affirm) in mind:

Doc, i never intended to imply that anyone did not believe in God as He actually is, which is one what in three whos. I believe the same. My intention was to ask if these statements of Jesus were intended to be taken literally, or not.

May i ask whether you think that my sin was in asking the questions, or in the way i asked the questions, or both?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

BRB

 

[DrPiano]

Doc, i never intended to imply that anyone did not believe in God as He actually is, which is one what in three whos. I believe the same. My intention was to ask if these statements of Jesus were intended to be taken literally, or not.

May i ask whether you think that my sin was in asking the questions, or in the way i asked the questions, or both?

I think its a little of both. Like I said, these questions can potentially be offensive if taken a certain way. I was fairly certain that your intent was to ask if we ought to take Jesus’ words literally (in reference to specific statements), however, the manner in which you asked them (specifically accompanying them with pictures) made the questions themselves more offensive. When you then asked some of the later questions that I (and others) have already referenced, that is what I believe sent others over the edge.

As I said above:

When you then take them further (as your later questions following these have done) and accompany these with the pictures that you did, yes, they become quite inflammatory.

The other wonderful posters have tried to refrain from judging your intentions but are starting to question your sincerity. Many of us on here have gone through a period of time where we’ve questioned the Catholic Church’s doctrine on the Eucharist. Oddly enough, I think many of us have ended up asking the same questions (that the others have). We see a major difference between the types of questions we asked and the types of questions you are asking. We sought to understand what the doctrine is. You appear to be attempting to tear it down. Thus, many have become disillusioned with this thread and you received censure from the moderator.

I repeat my suggestion from my last post:

I suggest that you go back through your questions and really pray about your approach. Put yourself in our shoes and ask yourself “if someone were asking these questions of me in this manner, might I take offense?”

Once you’ve done that, go back through our responses. Several of us have tried to lay out very clearly what we believe happens when God consecrates the bread and wine through the priest. As you read, keep the Nicene Creed (which we all affirm) in mind (see above).

 

[blossom02]

Like i said, i’m dismayed and trying to understand. Maybe it comes from not setting foot in a Catholic Church since i was a kid. Maybe i just cannot understand the affection you have for the hosts.

This may be the answer. If you can take the time you should find a Catholic Church in your area and find out if they have adoration. If they do plan to go and spend some time there with the Lord and observing catholics and what kind of respect they have for the Eucharist(not bread, wafer, loaf, or a dough boy).
Go to a daily Mass as an observer and just see again what it is that you had as a child. You will never get what you are looking for here you need to get it from the sourse.

God love you and may you be given the all the graces you need in your journey.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think its a little of both. Like I said, these questions can potentially be offensive if taken a certain way. I was fairly certain that your intent was to ask if we ought to take Jesus’ words literally (in reference to specific statements), however, the manner in which you asked them (specifically accompanying them with pictures) made the questions themselves more offensive. When you then asked some of the later questions that I (and others) have already referenced, that is what I believe sent others over the edge. …

I hope you don’t mind my asking, but do you think it is always a sin to say something offensive and shocking? I mean, is offending people an absolute wrong?

Let me give an example: If i were to call someone a snake, or a walking dead man, or a son of Satan, would this always be offensive and sinful?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This may be the answer. If you can take the time you should find a Catholic Church in your area and find out if they have adoration. If they do plan to go and spend some time there with the Lord and observing catholics and what kind of respect they have for the Eucharist(not bread, wafer, loaf, or a dough boy).
Go to a daily Mass as an observer and just see again what it is that you had as a child. You will never get what you are looking for here you need to get it from the sourse.

God love you and may you be given the all the graces you need in your journey.

The Roman Catholic Church is people, as much as ritual, Blossom. I think i can learn much about the church by how i’m treated by its people here, don’t you?

 

[DrPiano]

I hope you don’t mind my asking, but do you think it is always a sin to say something offensive and shocking? I mean, is offending people an absolute wrong?

Let me give an example: If i were to call someone a snake, or a walking dead man, or a son of Satan, would this always be offensive and sinful?

I never said it was sinful. I don’t remember anyone here saying you had sinned. What you have done is break some of the forum rules - and you were called on it.

I have to agree with Blossom. Go to a Catholic Church with a Eucharistic Adoration and watch those there. Ask God to open your eyes and allow you to see what they see. Pray. Attempt to understand what we’re saying about the Eucharist. I’m not trying to force you to believe it. I am asking you to open your mind enough to try to understand what we’re saying. Ask questions until you do understand. But ask sincere questions rather than attempting to be offensive.

Is it always a sin to be offensive? No. Jesus certainly offended the Pharisees at times and Jesus lived a sinless life. However, it is not generally (at least in my opinion) wise to seek understanding by offending the person (or people) trying to explain it to you.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I never said it was sinful. I don’t remember anyone here saying you had sinned. What you have done is break some of the forum rules - and you were called on it.

I have to agree with Blossom. Go to a Catholic Church with a Eucharistic Adoration and watch those there. Ask God to open your eyes and allow you to see what they see. Pray. Attempt to understand what we’re saying about the Eucharist. I’m not trying to force you to believe it. I am asking you to open your mind enough to try to understand what we’re saying. Ask questions until you do understand. But ask sincere questions rather than attempting to be offensive.

Is it always a sin to be offensive? No. Jesus certainly offended the Pharisees at times and Jesus lived a sinless life. However, it is not generally (at least in my opinion) wise to seek understanding by offending the person (or people) trying to explain it to you.

Yes, i’d have to agree that Jesus said some offensive things, for example, our sinless Savior said this:

… 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

… 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

… 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

(Matthew 23)

He actually did call people sons of Satan, walking dead, poisonous snakes. Yet, in all this, He never sinned.

I understand that you are not accusing me of committing any sin. However, would you say, Doc, that the rules of the forum are intended to protect people from being treated unfairly, or rudely, or in a disrespectful way? or do you think the forum rules have some other purpose?