A Tale of Two Eucharists

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Maybe this isn’t entirely kosher by the catechism, but I find an easy way to explain the body of Christ in the Eucharist this way.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. When Christ said “this is my body” at the Last Supper, he remained physically present with the apostles. Think of the Holy Spirit, one with Jesus, infusing himself into the bread. Jesus is then holding the bread, with the Holy Spirit in it, the same as if he himself became the bread. The bread is indeed changed but in a way that is sooo spiritual that it is equivalent to a “physical” change as we would understand it. The quibbling about the physical change in the bread is simply one of those human things we get tripped up on. Suffice to say, it isn’t thoroughly understandable by humans, hence the Church’s reference to it and other things as mysteries.

That God/Jesus/Holy Spirit were giving mankind a ritual through which they could continually make a sacrifice to God, honor God, and engage in worship, receive spiritual renewal shouldn’t be that hard to grasp from scriptures.

Also wish to comment on tradition. The Catholic church is the one that complied the Bible in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The apostles spread the Word and catholic Christian practices for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever complied. Protesants as far as I know made no effort to re-evaluate the church’s selections and compile their own Bible. The Reformers accepted the catholic Bible but rejected the “church” that complied it. Today Protestant churches simply don’t address this, they just say the church had corrupt practices and went awry (which it did but not on doctrine). It really only makes common sense to give credence to the tradition, practices, beliefs, rituals, etc. set in motion by the apostles and those they taught before the Bible was even compiled. It isn’t against the Bible as some Protestants seem to think.

Hope these comments can help some people view these things differently.
 
blossom02 said:
Truely Soc these things are a mystery and we must always keep in mindthat Gods ways are not our ways. God can do what ever He chooses with what ever He chooses. If He can make something from nothing then He can certainly make somthing from somthing. It is faith in the Lord that drives catholics to believe his every word. If He says “this is my body”, then it is His body and we see it as a gift. Only a merciful and loving God could provide us with such a gift of Himself.
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Yes, i understand that how God does miracles is a mystery, but what the miracles are is not. Scientists, for example, do not really know how atoms hold together, but there is no question that they do. Paul, however, explains what the truth is:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

(Colossians 1:17)

The what is not a mystery; the how is. That is, what the truth is, is no mystery. Our senses tell us that the universe holds together. How the truth is true is a mystery. How Jesus holds the universe together is beyond our comprehension.

The same is true with the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The what is no mystery, only the how is. What the truth is, is an historical fact: A dead guy really got up and walked. How the truth is, is a mystery: How Jesus could raise His own body from the dead as He said (John 2:19) is beyond comprehension.

The same must be true of the Eucharist. The what cannot be a mystery, only the how can be. What the Eucharist is cannot be beyond comprehension. How it becomes the body and blood of Christ can transcend all understanding.

I’m trying to be intellectually honest. My thought is that if it looks like bread, feels like bread, smells like bread, tastes like bread, and even sounds like bread (when it is broken) it must be, in some way, bread. To say that the bread is actually flesh is to go beyond saying that you don’t know how it becomes flesh. It is to say that you don’t know how the reality (the bread) is unreal (is really not bread, but human flesh).

Maybe an example would help express my stress:

Lets say that when Christianity was in its infancy the critics of the faith tried to kill it in its cradle. Lets say they removed the stone from Jesus’ tomb and pulled out His body and brought it to Peter and said, “Here is your God; behold, He is dead!”

Lets say Peter replied, “Behold, it’s a miracle! For He is not really dead, He only appears dead. The reality is He is alive–not just in spirit, but in the flesh!”

Would any of us be Christians, today? That’s the kind of struggle i’m having here. When you tell me the bread is not really bread, it’s like i’m being told a corpse is really alive. I need something that does not seem divorced from reality.

Please understand i am not attacking what you believe, i’m trying to understand what you believe.
 
blossom02 said:
Maybe this should be in another thread, but why did y ou leave the Catholic Church? I ask because it could help us to help you understand.
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My parents were not Catholic; my aunt was. She was an ex nun and wanted to expose us to the Catholic faith. I was baptized, confirmed, and partook of Holy Communion until i was a teenager.

My aunt got married and stopped taking us to church, as she had a family of her own, so i stopped going, too. I suppose i did not know what i was leaving. It was more an immature, emotional decision than a rational, thoughtful one.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
  1. No.
  2. Other way from what, from the way you mentioned in #1? It is the physical body of Jesus in its substance. That is, that is what it really, truly is. The molecules, the physical appearence, and the taste seem to be bread, but they are not. God has changed the properties of the universe for that piece of space.
  3. No.
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Thank you, Lazer. Are you saying, then, that the reality (the molecular structure of the host) is not real?

🤷
 
Soc, I understand what you are saying. This is an something bigger than understanding in our human ways. We are told to have faith and faith will set you free. This will be a difficult process for you if you don’t just allow God to be God. I think you are wanting a scientific formula for what God does and that will not always happen(God created science) but not all of the answers and formulas are given to us at one time. God gives us the understanding and the knowledge we need as we need it

Sorry for my lack of dept in thought, I’m a pretty simple person.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
That reminds me of what Jesus said to Nichodemus:

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10"You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

(John 3)

Are you saying that the Eucharist is an earthly sign of a heavenly reality?
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Well not quite…it is not ONLY a sign, it IS the reality or the REAL PRESENCE, but you could say the appearance of bread and wine which remain to our sense of touch, taste and sight, is an earthly sign of the reality. Heaven is a created place as well as earth. When we are at mass we are brought into a space outside of time and caught up in the reality of the heavenly banquet. We can’t see that reality,-- the angels the saints all around us. I am sure if we saw it we would die from the awe and wonder.
So God gives us something we can deal with, but challenges us to see with our spiritual eyes the other reality. Thus He gives us something to exercise our Faith with.

But I realized I went over a Protestant trip-wire in my last answer by saying the ‘bread’ could be seen as a symbol…but it made me think about why not see it on all levels…sign, symbol and most importantly, REAL PRESENCE…the trouble comes when you only see it on one or two levels and exclude the others. And believing it is the Real Presence is the most important way to see it because that is what makes the other two things truly authentic. i don’t think you have to completely understand it, I know I don’t!

MaryJohn
 
truthsilence said:
The host looks like bread, feels like bread, smells like bread but at the point of consecration it becomes the body blood soul and divinity of Christ. St Thomas Aquinas explains further using terms such as accidents (appearances) and substances; stating that, the accidents (appearances) of the bread and wine do not change, but their substance changes from bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ. It is Jesus miraculously coming to us, body blood soul and divinity, under the form of bread and wine. And then literally, miraculously, being received into our bodies as we partake of the Eucharist.

As a dear friend said recently, (paraphrasing) this all can make you turn on a light and say wow! or fall flat on your face. (I see that as falling prostrate in worship of God) and I say, it does both.

God bless you,
Tami
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Thanks, Tami.

Are you saying that on a molecular level it is bread, but on some other level it is flesh? I mean, are you saying the host is really both bread AND human flesh? Do you think the truth is that in this dimension, or universe, or reality it is bread; but in another dimension beyond that in which we live and breath and have our being, it is also the flesh of Jesus?

I guess what i’m asking is, is the Eucharist both, or the bread molecules unreal (but seen) and the human molecules real (but unseen)?

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
For, i take it that the “divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ” is the Spirit of God in Christ. Is this your inclination now, too, Doc, or are you of the opinion that the Eucharist contains only the flesh and blood of Christ?
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Soc. I can’t answer this question until I understand what you mean by “The divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit of God in Christ.”

From the way you say this, I am beginning to question whether you affirm the Incarnation in the same way that I do. Tell, me, Soc. How do you understand the incarnation?
 
AliciaCL said:
Maybe this isn’t entirely kosher by the catechism, but I find an easy way to explain the body of Christ in the Eucharist this way.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. When Christ said “this is my body” at the Last Supper, he remained physically present with the apostles. Think of the Holy Spirit, one with Jesus, infusing himself into the bread. Jesus is then holding the bread, with the Holy Spirit in it, the same as if he himself became the bread. The bread is indeed changed but in a way that is sooo spiritual that it is equivalent to a “physical” change as we would understand it. The quibbling about the physical change in the bread is simply one of those human things we get tripped up on. Suffice to say, it isn’t thoroughly understandable by humans, hence the Church’s reference to it and other things as mysteries.

That God/Jesus/Holy Spirit were giving mankind a ritual through which they could continually make a sacrifice to God, honor God, and engage in worship, receive spiritual renewal shouldn’t be that hard to grasp from scriptures.

Also wish to comment on tradition. The Catholic church is the one that complied the Bible in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The apostles spread the Word and catholic Christian practices for hundreds of years before the Bible was ever complied. Protesants as far as I know made no effort to re-evaluate the church’s selections and compile their own Bible. The Reformers accepted the catholic Bible but rejected the “church” that complied it. Today Protestant churches simply don’t address this, they just say the church had corrupt practices and went awry (which it did but not on doctrine). It really only makes common sense to give credence to the tradition, practices, beliefs, rituals, etc. set in motion by the apostles and those they taught before the Bible was even compiled. It isn’t against the Bible as some Protestants seem to think.

Hope these comments can help some people view these things differently.
Click to expand...
Are you saying, Alicia, that the what is a mystery, as well as the how? (Please see post # 358.)

🤷
 
Are you saying that on a molecular level it is bread, but on some other level it is flesh? I mean, are you saying the host is really both bread AND human flesh? Do you think the truth is that in this dimension, or universe, or reality it is bread; but in another dimension beyond that in which we live and breath and have our being, it is also the flesh of Jesus?

I guess what i’m asking is, is the Eucharist both, or the bread molecules unreal (but seen) and the human molecules real (but unseen)?

I think this could be a true statement. Catholics can correct me if I’m wrong.
 
blossom02 said:
Soc, I understand what you are saying. This is an something bigger than understanding in our human ways. We are told to have faith and faith will set you free. This will be a difficult process for you if you don’t just allow God to be God. I think you are wanting a scientific formula for what God does and that will not always happen(God created science) but not all of the answers and formulas are given to us at one time. God gives us the understanding and the knowledge we need as we need it

Sorry for my lack of dept in thought, I’m a pretty simple person.
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Scientific explanation? No. I realize that i cannot put God into a test tube. The scientific method cannot be used, for example, to prove that Julius Caesar, or George Washington, or Jesus Christ lived. Historical evidence, however, can.

Logical explanation? Yes! I do not believe that faith ever contradicts reason. Faith is not irrational.
 
blossom02 said:
Are you saying that on a molecular level it is bread, but on some other level it is flesh? I mean, are you saying the host is really both bread AND human flesh? Do you think the truth is that in this dimension, or universe, or reality it is bread; but in another dimension beyond that in which we live and breath and have our being, it is also the flesh of Jesus?

I guess what i’m asking is, is the Eucharist both, or the bread molecules unreal (but seen) and the human molecules real (but unseen)?
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I’d like to know what others have to say about this as well.

🙂
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Question 14.

Is the Eucharist both bread and the body of Christ? That is, is the host perhaps bread in this universe or dimension or reality, and, at the same time, also human flesh in another universe or dimension or reality?

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

(Matthew 26)
 
If the essence (its substance) of something is to be considered in another reality, then yes. The body and blood of Christ, found in the essence of what appears (by the senses) to be bread and wine are then in another “reality”.

You could say:

according to my perception and taste, it is bread and wine

according to my faith in the knowledge of what a substance is, it is the body and blood of Christ.

the thing-ness of the bread and cup is not bread and wine, but Christ’s body and blood. It is truly His body, and only accidentally (by appearance) bread.
 
A clarification:

The substance of something is what it is.

The accidents of something are what it appears to be.
 
murphdog261 said:
A clarification:

The substance of something is what it is.

The accidents of something are what it appears to be.
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Thanks for that clarification. I had forgotten how the church says that. That is helpful!

MaryJohnZ
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
For, i take it that the “divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ” is the Spirit of God in Christ. Is this your inclination now, too, Doc, or are you of the opinion that the Eucharist contains only the flesh and blood of Christ?
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We teach the children to say “Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, indivisible.” 🙂

When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the living and risen Jesus Christ into an intimate relationship with both our bodies and our souls. 🙂
 
Soc,

I always learn something from you and about you when reading your posts. You have shown what it means to humbly “man up” and apologize even if something was done unintentionally. The Holy Spirit is with you my friend and you showed a great Christian example. God bless.

You asked the following question which I took the liberty of putting in bold for emphasis.
Socrates4Jesus said:
I’m reminded of Jesus’ words at the time He told the overzealous mob He was the bread of life:

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. *(John 6)*And i wonder at this. I mean, Jesus was God, and could read their minds. Before a word came out of their mouths, He knew completely what they would say. He knew who would walk away and who would stay in reaction to His words that day.

But why did He say it on this day, and in such an offensive way? The Eucharist, i’m beginning to understand, is a sacred substance (i now hesitate to call the host a thing). Why would He choose this moment in time to talk about such a sacred doctrine? Prior to His offending words, i read this:
…
…
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Scripture gives us the answer to this in John 6:4 when it says:

“Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.”

The connection between consuming Jesus flesh and blood and the Passover is being established. Likewise, the promise is brought into the New Covenant at Passover. The full consumation of the promise of the New Covenant Passover occurs with the death of Jesus upon the cross. Jesus and the apostles go off into the night without finishing the Passover liturgy*. The completion is when Jesus utters the words “It is finished” while hanging on the cross.

Jesus is therefore called the Paschal Lamb and we consume the lamb like the Jews did in the OT Passover. The Jews would consume a real lamb at their Passover celebrations and we consume the real Jesus, our Pascahl Lamb, in the Eucharist.*
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Thank you, Lazer. Are you saying, then, that the reality (the molecular structure of the host) is not real?

🤷
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I’m saying that reality is real because God makes it so. If God suddenly decided that Mars isn’t real anymore, it wouldn’t be - it would cease to exist.

The fact that a given molecular structure makes a given thing is a reality because of God’s constant “thought” keeping it so. As I said, if God were to cease thinking of anything, it would cease to be. He “holds everything in being,” as the Scripture says. When the priest says the words of consecration over the host, God alters the reality for the little space that the host occupies, so that the reality in that space so that whatever it happens to be made of, it’s the body of Christ.

Like I said, if God wanted to make the universe out of the four elements rather than atoms, He could have. If He wants to alter the way the universe is made up in the space the host occupies, He can do that too.

In transubstantiation, God doesn’t make anything stop being real, He changes what reality is.
 
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