A Tale of Two Eucharists

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28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 30So they asked him, “What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” *(John 6)*Do you think, Lazer, that Jesus will damn those who believe in Him? (cf. verse 29).

🤷
Using English, yes.

The word “believe” in verse 29 is the translation of the Greek pisteuo. Pisteuo can mean simple belief, but it can also involve far more than belief in the intellectual sense. It can connote loyalty, trust, and obedience. This can be seen in John chapter 3. In John 3:16, Jesus says that all who believe *- pisteuo *- will be saved. John 3:36, however, says: “Whoever believes pisteuo] in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” Thus, regardless of the belief a person has, without obedience they will receive only damnation. The word translated as “does not obey” is apeitheo. Apeitheo is defined as “impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious.”

In summary, John 3:36 teaches that the opposite of* pisteuo* is disobedience. This shows us in Scripture what good Greek scholarship tells us: *pisteuo *canmean to believe, obey, and be loyal. In the usage of St. John, it does, according to John 3:36.

Beyond that, there are other passages that teach us the same thing, such as Matthew 7:21:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
St. James teaches that even the demons believe, yet they are damned. In the direct language of Scripture, then, some who believe are damned.

Peace and God bless
 
Or, do you think, Lazer, that those who refuse to believe in Him will believe what He says to them?

🤷
 
Using English, yes.

The word “believe” in verse 29 is the translation of the Greek pisteuo. Pisteuo can mean simple belief, but it can also involve far more than belief in the intellectual sense. It can connote loyalty, trust, and obedience. This can be seen in John chapter 3. In John 3:16, Jesus says that all who believe *- pisteuo *- will be saved. John 3:36, however, says: “Whoever believes pisteuo] in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” Thus, regardless of the belief a person has, without obedience they will receive only damnation. The word translated as “does not obey” is apeitheo. Apeitheo is defined as “impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious.”

In summary, John 3:36 teaches that the opposite of* pisteuo* is disobedience. This shows us in Scripture what good Greek scholarship tells us: *pisteuo *canmean to believe, obey, and be loyal. In the usage of St. John, it does, according to John 3:36.

Beyond that, there are other passages that teach us the same thing, such as Matthew 7:21:

St. James teaches that even the demons believe, yet they are damned. In the direct language of Scripture, then, some who believe are damned.

Peace and God bless
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. 👍

Please let me ask the next question, again:

Do you think that those who refuse to believe in Christ will believe what He says to them?

🤷
 
Apparently these non-Catholics did not read or remember James’ advice:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

What wisdom did God give you, Mary, and how did He give this insight into the Eucharist to you?

🙂
I remember in college being around people who did not believe and I stopped going to mass for awhile. Finally I realized that I was denying what I actually believed in because I never really stopped talking to God. So I just said “God, I don’t care if I can’t prove You exist, I believe in You and I want You in my life”. Sounds like a sinner’s prayer right? I guess it was. But maybe it was that small seed of faith, a little mustard seed, and then God
allowed me to really feel His Presence in a tangible way which I did not expect, and that was a long time ago and many things have happened since then, but the reality of God is something
that was made known to me by God.

I imagine the Protestants at the Bible study would not think they lacked in wisdom though…

When I came back from the Bible study though I had a dream
about the Eucharist. God told me to read Psalm 77 ( it would be Psalm 78 in Protestant bibles)

They spoke against God, and said, “Can God spread a table in the desert?
20
True, when he struck the rock, water gushed forth, the wadis flooded. But can he also provide bread, give meat to his people?”
21
The LORD heard and grew angry; fire blazed up against Jacob; anger flared up against Israel.
22
For they did not believe in God, did not trust in his saving power.


I dreamed that God explained to me that He is like a Mother who
mixes the medicine in the applesauce so the child will take it since if any of us could really know the Sanctity of God which we receive in Communion we would not be able to approach and receive.

I did a write up about the dream and Psalm 77 ( I have a Douay Rheims Bible)…just think God ( of course) even knew what Bible I had!

GOD IS REAL AND HE IS REALLY PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST!!!

MaryJohnZ
 
How does one identify a *metaphor?*ISTM that you’re saying that one of the identifying “marks,” of a metaphor, if you will, is that one is not told to eat something?

How does one identify a metaphor?
The two things that are being compared have something in common.

For example, Jesus can be a “door” because we go through Him into the Kingdom of Heaven. We go “through” Jesus the same way we go “through” the Registry Office to obtain our license plates - we follow the procedures that He has laid out for us.

Jesus can be a “vine” because we can “graft ourselves” into Him, by means of the Way of the Cross; that is, through imitation.

But in what sense is Jesus’ body and blood “bread and wine,” unless we can actually eat and drink Him? 🤷
 
In Luke 22:19 “…Do this in remembrance of me.”

In fact, a more expressive translation would read “Celebrate this as a memorial sacrifice of me.”

The Greek words used in this sentence all carry much more meaning than what we get out of them when we translate them into English. Almost all Christians are familiar with this concept, because almost all Christians are familiar with the Greek word agape. It translates into English as “love,” but it really carries a lot more meaning. The Greek language had a massive vocabulary, one that at times was extremely specific. It is also a language from a different time with different emphasises, meaning that certain areas of the language will be more developed than our language.

How this plays out in this particular case is that Koine Greek (and Hebrew) developed in a period of time when things like sacrifices were very important. It was a central part of most people’s religions, and thus lives. English, and to a lesser degree Latin, developed at a time and in a culture when things like sacrifices were less important. As a result, Hebrew and Koine Greek have more words to refer to things involving sacrifice than we do.

In the case of the passage cited above, the words involved have heavy sacrificial emphasis.

“Do” is the translation of the word ποιεῖτε (poieite). This particular word often carried a sacrifical context. It is used in the Septuagint 70 times to say “offer a sacrifice” in place of the Hebrew word תעשׂה (asah). It was also used when referring to the Passover, with the meaning of “celebrate.” When one was referring to celebrating the Passover, he would use this word. It was not always used in this way, but the emphasis did exist in the word.

The stronger word is “rememberance,” which is a translation of the Greek word αναμνησιν (anamnesis). This particular word is actually quite loaded. It is one of over 20 different Greek words referring to memory, but unless my memory fails me it is the only one that has a sacrificial meaning. It is used in the Septuagint in place of the Hebrew להזכיר׃ (zakar) and לאזכרה (azkarah).

*Zakar *means memorial, and is often used to refer to burning incense. It is the root word of azkarah, which means “memorial offering.” Here are a few examples of its use (I will bold the translated word in each example).
Lev 2:2 And he shall bring it to Aaron’s sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD
Lev 2:9 And the priest shall take from the meat offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Lev 24:7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
The use of the term in the New Testament is also in a sacrificial context. Hebrews 10:3 uses the term to refer to the yearly sin offerings in the Levitical system:
Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year.
Here’s the kicker: the word “sacrifices” is not really in this sentence. Many translations add it, but it does not in fact belong. To see this, look at a King James translation. BIble translators always have to add words when they translate. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense in the new language, because languages don’t translate word for word. In the King James Bible, the translators rendered all of the words they added in italics. Here is the verse in the King James translation:
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
If we remove those extra terms, we get:
But in those a remembrance again of sins every year."
The reason that the words “sacrifices” and “made” are added is because otherwise, the meaning of the passage may be lost. This is because the word *anamnesis *translates as “remembrance” when in fact it means “memorial sacrifice.” Taking into account the complete meaning of the word, the verse ought to say :
Heb 10:3 But in those is a memorial sacrifice again of sins every year.
Because translators often - particularly in more direct, word for word translations like the King James - render words as simply as they can, fine points like this can be lost.

Peace and God bless
 
I remember in college being around people who did not believe and I stopped going to mass for awhile. Finally I realized that I was denying what I actually believed in because I never really stopped talking to God. So I just said “God, I don’t care if I can’t prove You exist, I believe in You and I want You in my life”. Sounds like a sinner’s prayer right? I guess it was. But maybe it was that small seed of faith, a little mustard seed, and then God
allowed me to really feel His Presence in a tangible way which I did not expect, and that was a long time ago and many things have happened since then, but the reality of God is something
that was made known to me by God.

I imagine the Protestants at the Bible study would not think they lacked in wisdom though…

When I came back from the Bible study though I had a dream
about the Eucharist. God told me to read Psalm 77 ( it would be Psalm 78 in Protestant bibles)

*They spoke against God, and said, “Can God spread a table in the desert? *
*20 *
*True, when he struck the rock, water gushed forth, the wadis flooded. But can he also provide bread, give meat to his people?” *
*21 *
*The LORD heard and grew angry; fire blazed up against Jacob; anger flared up against Israel. *
*22 *
For they did not believe in God, did not trust in his saving power.

I dreamed that God explained to me that He is like a Mother who
mixes the medicine in the applesauce so the child will take it since if any of us could really know the Sanctity of God which we receive in Communion we would not be able to approach and receive.

I did a write up about the dream and Psalm 77 ( I have a Douay Rheims Bible)…just think God ( of course) even knew what Bible I had!

GOD IS REAL AND HE IS REALLY PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST!!!

MaryJohnZ
I’ve often wondered whether God would speak to me in a dream. This is an experience i’ve never had, though i believe i’ve heard His voice in other unmistakable ways.

👍

Please tell me, Mary, did you ask God for wisdom to know the meaning of your dream? If so, did He answer your prayer and interpret the dream for you?
 
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. 👍

Please let me ask the next question, again:

Do you think that those who refuse to believe in Christ will believe what He says to them?

🤷
Some would, some would not. One does not have to put their faith in an individual to believe what he says.
 
In Luke 22:19 “…Do this in remembrance of me.”

In fact, a more expressive translation would read “Celebrate this as a memorial sacrifice of me.”

The Greek words used in this sentence all carry much more meaning than what we get out of them when we translate them into English. Almost all Christians are familiar with this concept, because almost all Christians are familiar with the Greek word agape. It translates into English as “love,” but it really carries a lot more meaning. The Greek language had a massive vocabulary, one that at times was extremely specific. It is also a language from a different time with different emphasises, meaning that certain areas of the language will be more developed than our language.

How this plays out in this particular case is that Koine Greek (and Hebrew) developed in a period of time when things like sacrifices were very important. It was a central part of most people’s religions, and thus lives. English, and to a lesser degree Latin, developed at a time and in a culture when things like sacrifices were less important. As a result, Hebrew and Koine Greek have more words to refer to things involving sacrifice than we do.

In the case of the passage cited above, the words involved have heavy sacrificial emphasis.

“Do” is the translation of the word ποιεῖτε (poieite). This particular word often carried a sacrifical context. It is used in the Septuagint 70 times to say “offer a sacrifice” in place of the Hebrew word תעשׂה (asah). It was also used when referring to the Passover, with the meaning of “celebrate.” When one was referring to celebrating the Passover, he would use this word. It was not always used in this way, but the emphasis did exist in the word.

The stronger word is “rememberance,” which is a translation of the Greek word αναμνησιν (anamnesis). This particular word is actually quite loaded. It is one of over 20 different Greek words referring to memory, but unless my memory fails me it is the only one that has a sacrificial meaning. It is used in the Septuagint in place of the Hebrew להזכיר׃ (zakar) and לאזכרה (azkarah).

*Zakar *means memorial, and is often used to refer to burning incense. It is the root word of azkarah, which means “memorial offering.” Here are a few examples of its use (I will bold the translated word in each example).

The use of the term in the New Testament is also in a sacrificial context. Hebrews 10:3 uses the term to refer to the yearly sin offerings in the Levitical system:

Here’s the kicker: the word “sacrifices” is not really in this sentence. Many translations add it, but it does not in fact belong. To see this, look at a King James translation. BIble translators always have to add words when they translate. Otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense in the new language, because languages don’t translate word for word. In the King James Bible, the translators rendered all of the words they added in italics. Here is the verse in the King James translation:

If we remove those extra terms, we get:

The reason that the words “sacrifices” and “made” are added is because otherwise, the meaning of the passage may be lost. This is because the word *anamnesis *translates as “remembrance” when in fact it means “memorial sacrifice.” Taking into account the complete meaning of the word, the verse ought to say :

Because translators often - particularly in more direct, word for word translations like the King James - render words as simply as they can, fine points like this can be lost.

Peace and God bless
Thank you, Lazer, i’ll read this carefully through. 👍
 
The two things that are being compared have something in common.

For example, Jesus can be a “door” because we go through Him into the Kingdom of Heaven. We go “through” Jesus the same way we go “through” the Registry Office to obtain our license plates - we follow the procedures that He has laid out for us.

Jesus can be a “vine” because we can “graft ourselves” into Him, by means of the Way of the Cross; that is, through imitation.

But in what sense is Jesus’ body and blood “bread and wine,” unless we can actually eat and drink Him? 🤷
But I think we can eat and drink of the Lord in our desire to be one with Him as well. Food is something we consume and it is transformed into us. My sister in her book “Eating Beauty” points out that when we take communion , we are tranformed by the spiritual food of Christ into Him…the reverse of normal food…

And I believe that one who desires to be in union with goodness,
beauty, truth, love…is on a lower level consuming the Eucharist since all those things come from God and are part of God. I
think of the fact that everything Mary consumed during her pregnancy was incorporated into the Body of Christ ! Perhaps the
way Christ 'Thanks" His Mother for this gift is to become food for all the children in His church, all her children…

such great mysteries to ponder in the Eucharist!

the whole ‘transformation’ process of eating becomes a metaphor
for being incorporated into Christ…
 
Some would, some would not. One does not have to put their faith in an individual to believe what he says.
34"Sir," they said, “from now on give us this bread.” 35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” *(John 6)*Well, i’d have a hard time believing what someone told me about Himself if i did not think i could trust Him.

At any rate, it appears to me that Jesus was doing a great deal of explaining that He was the bread of life, but they still refused to believe in Him and in what He said. Since they refused to believe in Him and in what He said, do you think His explaining what He meant by calling Himself the bread from heaven would do any good?

🤷

In fact, when i read Jesus’ words in verse 36, it appears to me He knew they were already refusing to believe in Him and in what He said. It is apparent, then, that since they had already made up their minds not to believe, the argument that His not explaining what He meant would condemn them to hell does not hold water.

What do you think?
 
I’ve often wondered whether God would speak to me in a dream. This is an experience i’ve never had, though i believe i’ve heard His voice in other unmistakable ways.

👍

Please tell me, Mary, did you ask God for wisdom to know the meaning of your dream? If so, did He answer your prayer and interpret the dream for you?
I think His answer was Psalm 77 ( Psalm 78). The dream was pretty simple and clear but I did meditate on the Psalm and pray about it. The Eucharist is one of those bottomless mysteries we all need to ponder over and over and the Psalm makes it very clear how important it is to “remember” all that God did…all the powerful things He did for the Israelites. The whole Psalm is a reminder that He can do anything and in it all of God’s deeds are listed…so why doubt that he can provide a Holy Meal like the Eucharist in the middle of the desert of the world! The psalm also was an accusation that people had not taught their children and passed on their faith…which is something we can apply to ourselves.

I personnally believe we are being led into a Eucharistic Age and God is going to establish beyond a doubt the reality of His Presence in the Eucharist. Have you read the Lady of All Nations messages? They are approved by the cburch and point to that.

I was born of John Bosco’s feast day and he is the saint of dreams
anyway, although I have not had the complicated dreams he had!
I am very grateful to God but believe that faith without special dreams or experiences is sometimes much stronger faith and that God speaks to each of us in a language meant for us.

God Bless, MaryJohnZ
 
I think His answer was Psalm 77 ( Psalm 78). The dream was pretty simple and clear but I did meditate on the Psalm and pray about it. The Eucharist is one of those bottomless mysteries we all need to ponder over and over and the Psalm makes it very clear how important it is to “remember” all that God did…all the powerful things He did for the Israelites. The whole Psalm is a reminder that He can do anything and in it all of God’s deeds are listed…so why doubt that he can provide a Holy Meal like the Eucharist in the middle of the desert of the world! The psalm also was an accusation that people had not taught their children and passed on their faith…which is something we can apply to ourselves.

I personnally believe we are being led into a Eucharistic Age and God is going to establish beyond a doubt the reality of His Presence in the Eucharist. Have you read the Lady of All Nations messages? They are approved by the cburch and point to that.

I was born of John Bosco’s feast day and he is the saint of dreams
anyway, although I have not had the complicated dreams he had!
I am very grateful to God but believe that faith without special dreams or experiences is sometimes much stronger faith and that God speaks to each of us in a language meant for us.

God Bless, MaryJohnZ
Thank you for sharing your experience, Mary. Have you ever considered why Moses struck the rock in the desert?
 
Question 6.

Is God the sun that gives us light, or the moon by night?

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

(John 8)

http://www.risk-ed.org/images/various/small_q_mark.gif
He is neither the sun nor the moon. He himself is the uncreated source of all light. He is not the sun which consumes itself in giving light nor the moon which reflects the light of the sun.
 
Yes, and earlier you said:

Jesus risked his life to make the meaning of a relatively easy parable clear to his listeners because they did not understand him. In John 6 the Jews did understand his hard saying which was not a parable and they walked away from Him. Jesus risked losing His disciples by telling them the truth of the Eucharist that He would give them. He even risked alienating the twelve. If they did not understand what he was talking about they would not have walked away. He spoke literally and they understood Him literally. He did not explain His statements as metaphorical and He never changed the meaning by way of some other explanation.


Now, if i were to ask you, Pax, whether Jesus wanted to be declared king of the Jewish people at that juncture, i’m sure you would say that He did not. Likewise, if i asked you if Jesus wanted to lead an insurrection to overthrow the Roman government in Jerusalem, i’m certain you would also say this was not what He came to earth to do.

So, would you say, then, that Jesus’ statements in John, chapter 6 had the effect of stopping them from making Him king and, thereby, stopped the Romans from attempting to squelch the rebellion that would likely ensue afterward?

🤷
This seems like a reasonable speculation. This may be a reasonable effect, but it is difficult to for me to read the passage and then establish that as Jesus intent. There is no point in Jesus life or ministry where he would allow the Jews to make him king. Jesus entrance into Jerusalem on the donkey on what we celebrate as “Palm Sunday” would have been the most likely time for an earthly coronation, but it simply wasn’t going to happen.
 
It’s impossible to prove anything conclusively from scripture alone which is why the reformers couldn’t agree on many issues, including this one. As many posters have said, the only Church which can lay claim to being the historical one has simply “always done it this way”. And time spent reading the ECFs will confirm this.
 
Thank you for sharing your experience, Mary. Have you ever considered why Moses struck the rock in the desert?
You must have looked up Psalm 77 (78)! He struck it because he felt it was God’s word to Him to do so, I believe. I doubt he knew then that it would be a sign of something greater later on. And he had his doubts too, didn’t he?! It was his doubting that kept him from be allowed to enter the Promised Land…so maybe that can
be something to reflect upon when it comes to lacking faith in the Eucharist.

Avtually I remember being at mass and hearing the reading about Massah and Meribah ( not sure of spelling) where Moses struck the rock and there were doubts and everyone wanted to be Priests… and I remember thinking in my ignorance that is where we got the name “Mass”. I do think the Priest is like Moses and tthe words of consecration is what strikes the rock…or brings this great miracle.I think we are like the people back then because we grumble at times and complain and disbelieve and many want to become Priests when they are not called to that.

I was thinking about how the miracle of transubstatiation which occurs at the consecration has a lesser form because to the extent we offer our work and lives to God can be said to be a form of ‘transubstantiating’ those things by making them God’s property. In that way we are all priestly and we ‘transubstantiate’ our lives into the Kingdom of God.

MaryJohnZ
 
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