A Tale of Two Eucharists

[DrPiano]

I’ll answer your question if you answer mine

What makes a snowball, a snowball? What makes a pen, a pen? What makes a chair, a chair? What makes God, God?

Is that fair, Doc? I’m asking you sincere questions and you are poking fun!

Oh my, i’m late! If you decide, Doc, to talk about this thoughtfully and seriously, please let me know. I stopped poking fun with the Doe Boy many replies ago. Walking through a Lewis Carol kind of conversation might be fun, but would not get us anywhere.

My apologies, Soc., if you thought I wasn’t being serious. I was being entirely serious. I think its far better to work from “the top down” on this one: start on a large scale (God, things on a macro scale) and work down to the small things (like atoms) because I think we can see principles from the big that we can then apply to the little. I am being thoughtful, serious, and systematic in my madness. I do apologize sincerely if my comment was taken as poking fun.

However, my question still stands, in seriousness. What makes a chair, a chair? What makes a snowball, a snowball? What makes a pen, a pen? What makes bread, bread? What makes God, God?

These are questions we need to deal with first before we resort to looking at the atomic or molecular level.

 

[teadough]

What is the substance of water? Would you call it wateriness, or something else?

Depends on what temperature the water is.

Pure water, if exposed to air, immediately absorbs air and has oxygen from the air dissolved in it. Aglass of tap water at 68°F contains 9.0 ppm of oxygen. Tap water heated to 77°F contains 8.2ppm of oxygen, and some oxygen is driven out ofthe water. The higher the temperature of the water,the less dissolved oxygen it can hold. Conversely,the higher the pressure imposed on the water, thegreater the dissolved oxygen it can hold.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

MJ:

If you and i are to know the truth about Jesus, we should consider what He said about His body after rising from the dead. He said to His disciples after His resurrection:

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” *(Luke 24:37-39)*Will you at least agree that Jesus was showing them that whatever His glorified body is, it is a material, or physical, body?

when I read this portion of the gospel I do not react to it the same way you do, I think. The Apostles had never had the experience of
encountering a resurrected person…and yes, Jesus was a person
with a body that had flesh and bones.

I saw a website for a Christian artshow recently that was titled : skin, the wrapping paper of nature. I see the human person as flesh, blood, bone, all those things. But these things in themselves have a metaphysical nature…each one has a highter meaning in God.
Blood: traditionally was associated with the soul of a person or animal
Water: traditionally I believe is associated with Life 9 not sure but am thinking of baptism and the waters if genesis cration account)
Bone: I see this as a structural element, perhaps akin to the rafters in the church or in architecture. when my spiritual state rests on false principlas my “bones” are our of order…
I remember at one point in my spiritual journey feeling like all my structures were being collapsed by God so he could rebuild them.

That is my best attempt at being metaphysical for now…

The risen Christ could control His Body in ways we cannot because we live under the effects of original sin. Jesus took on our nature and lived under the effects of original sin too, but by His own Will, not because he ever needed to, nor was he ever bound to those effects as can be seen by the fact that he walked on water etc… The fact that he could have done much greater astounding wondes and did not because he wanted to reveal His love for the ordinary and did so by His great example, especially in the hidden life of Nazareth.

Jesus always was a Divine Person in a human body and after the resurrection he could still appear as a human person, not a ghost, when and if he wished. If Jesus wanted to he could come into my room right now and sit and talk with me, but I admit i would probably be frightened too, just like the apostles…because it is not my normal experience. But I believe he could appear here with His flesh and bones if it was His desire.

So I don’t know how to explain that in terms of science if that is what you need.

I believe the human body is meant to be a temple and as we live in our bodies, keeping them in a holy way by obeying God’s laws and when we suffer because of our bodies we can offer that up, then we are rewarded with a new kind of body that is ‘transfigured’.

Which brings up the “Transfiguration”…was Moses there as a 'ghost? When the Apostles saw Christ transfigured they were given a glimpse of Christ’s future glorigied body. Now they wanted to build tents and stay up on the Mountain with Christ and Elijah,
so they saw them as needing shelters, as being human…

Mayb we can think of the miraculous bread on our altars as a
‘shelter’, a ‘tent’ for the Glorified Christ who is totally present there.
But the tent is only the appearance of a tent, for Christ totlally abides in the place of the bread. What difference does it make?
The tent is only the shelter or cover and the main focus is the person in the tent anyway…

Physical bodies can be transfigured by grace…and I believe that means they can appear, disappear at the Will of the person who is blessed with such a body. Christ has a transfigured or glorified body with all that means…

I think material things, our work, our play can all be transfigured when we consecrate those things to God as in a morning offering… so they can become holy too. And then they belong to God and are part of His Kingdom.

So trying to live your life based on all that is living a Eucharistic life…everything becomes part of the bread on the altar.

God Bless, maryjohnz

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

My apologies, Soc., if you thought I wasn’t being serious. I was being entirely serious. I think its far better to work from “the top down” on this one: start on a large scale (God, things on a macro scale) and work down to the small things (like atoms) because I think we can see principles from the big that we can then apply to the little. I am being thoughtful, serious, and systematic in my madness. I do apologize sincerely if my comment was taken as poking fun. …

Are you not surprised, Doc, to find you disagree with Jesus?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Depends on what temperature the water is.

Pure water, if exposed to air, immediately absorbs air and has oxygen from the air dissolved in it. Aglass of tap water at 68°F contains 9.0 ppm of oxygen. Tap water heated to 77°F contains 8.2ppm of oxygen, and some oxygen is driven out ofthe water. The higher the temperature of the water,the less dissolved oxygen it can hold. Conversely,the higher the pressure imposed on the water, thegreater the dissolved oxygen it can hold.

What do ice, snow, liquid water, and steam have in common, Tea?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

when I read this portion of the gospel I do not react to it the same way you do, I think. The Apostles had never had the experience of
encountering a resurrected person…and yes, Jesus was a person
with a body that had flesh and bones.

I saw a website for a Christian artshow recently that was titled : skin, the wrapping paper of nature. I see the human person as flesh, blood, bone, all those things. But these things in themselves have a metaphysical nature…each one has a highter meaning in God.
Blood: traditionally was associated with the soul of a person or animal
Water: traditionally I believe is associated with Life 9 not sure but am thinking of baptism and the waters if genesis cration account)
Bone: I see this as a structural element, perhaps akin to the rafters in the church or in architecture. when my spiritual state rests on false principlas my “bones” are our of order…
I remember at one point in my spiritual journey feeling like all my structures were being collapsed by God so he could rebuild them.

That is my best attempt at being metaphysical for now…

The risen Christ could control His Body in ways we cannot because we live under the effects of original sin. Jesus took on our nature and lived under the effects of original sin too, but by His own Will, not because he ever needed to, nor was he ever bound to those effects as can be seen by the fact that he walked on water etc… The fact that he could have done much greater astounding wondes and did not because he wanted to reveal His love for the ordinary and did so by His great example, especially in the hidden life of Nazareth.

Jesus always was a Divine Person in a human body and after the resurrection he could still appear as a human person, not a ghost, when and if he wished. If Jesus wanted to he could come into my room right now and sit and talk with me, but I admit i would probably be frightened too, just like the apostles…because it is not my normal experience. But I believe he could appear here with His flesh and bones if it was His desire.

So I don’t know how to explain that in terms of science if that is what you need.

I believe the human body is meant to be a temple and as we live in our bodies, keeping them in a holy way by obeying God’s laws and when we suffer because of our bodies we can offer that up, then we are rewarded with a new kind of body that is ‘transfigured’.

Which brings up the “Transfiguration”…was Moses there as a 'ghost? When the Apostles saw Christ transfigured they were given a glimpse of Christ’s future glorigied body. Now they wanted to build tents and stay up on the Mountain with Christ and Elijah,
so they saw them as needing shelters, as being human…

Mayb we can think of the miraculous bread on our altars as a
‘shelter’, a ‘tent’ for the Glorified Christ who is totally present there.
But the tent is only the appearance of a tent, for Christ totlally abides in the place of the bread. What difference does it make?
The tent is only the shelter or cover and the main focus is the person in the tent anyway…

Physical bodies can be transfigured by grace…and I believe that means they can appear, disappear at the Will of the person who is blessed with such a body. Christ has a transfigured or glorified body with all that means…

I think material things, our work, our play can all be transfigured when we consecrate those things to God as in a morning offering… so they can become holy too. And then they belong to God and are part of His Kingdom.

So trying to live your life based on all that is living a Eucharistic life…everything becomes part of the bread on the altar.

God Bless, maryjohnz

Do you think your physical body, MJ, is like a tent for your soul?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Do you think your physical body, MJ, is like a tent for your soul?

To an extent yes, but it is not something that is disposable or separate from my soul since the way people see me affects the way they treat or react to me and affects the way I experience the world, so it is more than just a dwelling . it becomes an aspect of how God forms my soul. And I believe there is a correspondance between the nature of the soul and the bosy it is joined to.So you can’t just say it is separate and merely a covering.

But I do think personhood is "houselike’ or “citylike”. I think when Christ is invited into my heart and soul at the Eucharist He is “supping with me”.

Revelations:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

To me that describes Holy Communion.

I believe there is a correspondance between the universal celebration of the Eucharist and the concept of the Feast of Tabernacles which the jewish people celebrated. They all built dwellings of sticks and stayed in them for t days I think…I would have to look it up again. But the Tabernacle Tent in the desert with the Bread of Presence foreshadowed the Eucharistic Presence in our churches.

My heart is like a tabernacle for God…

Lots of different parallels…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

sorry my typing is so terrible.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

To an extent yes, but it is not something that is disposable or separate from my soul since the way people see me affects the way they treat or react to me and affects the way I experience the world, so it is more than just a dwelling . it becomes an aspect of how God forms my soul. And I believe there is a correspondance between the nature of the soul and the bosy it is joined to.So you can’t just say it is separate and merely a covering.

But I do think personhood is "houselike’ or “citylike”. I think when Christ is invited into my heart and soul at the Eucharist He is “supping with me”.

Revelations:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

To me that describes Holy Communion.

I believe there is a correspondance between the universal celebration of the Eucharist and the concept of the Feast of Tabernacles which the jewish people celebrated. They all built dwellings of sticks and stayed in them for t days I think…I would have to look it up again. But the Tabernacle Tent in the desert with the Bread of Presence foreshadowed the Eucharistic Presence in our churches.

My heart is like a tabernacle for God…

Lots of different parallels…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

sorry my typing is so terrible.

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

(2 Peter 1:13-14)

Yes, i think Peter would agree with you, for the metaphor of his body being a tent was not a perfect one. I think you might agree, MJ, that the soul can, and does, exist apart from the body.

Peter, for example, is likely in heaven, but not in a physical body. Don’t you think?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

(2 Peter 1:13-14)

Yes, i think Peter would agree with you, for the metaphor of his body being a tent was not a perfect one. I think you might agree, MJ, that the soul can, and does, exist apart from the body.

Peter, for example, is likely in heaven, but not in a physical body. Don’t you think?

Well thanks for the quote from Peter.

So we live outside of our ‘tent’ for a while…
But Jesus and Mary are in heaven with their bodies and there is a sense that there is a more complete reward when that does happen.

Since God is everywhere and all around us, why can’t He exist under the “tent” of the appearance of bread and wine? Do you have to see something for it to exist?

God Bless, Mary

 

[DrPiano]

Are you not surprised, Doc, to find you disagree with Jesus?

::Raises eyebrow Vulcan-style::. I’m intrigued, Soc. Do enlighten me. How am I in disagreement with Jesus?

 

[teadough]

What do ice, snow, liquid water, and steam have in common, Tea?

different amounts of Dissolved Oxygen and Hydrogen depending on the temperature

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

::Raises eyebrow Vulcan-style::. I’m intrigued, Soc. Do enlighten me. How am I in disagreement with Jesus?

Ain’t i a stinker, Doc?



There is nothing wrong in your approach. I just think it is the opposite of what Jesus often chose when trying to explain some spiritual truth to someone for the first time. Remember what He said to the religious sage Nicodemus?

I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

(John 3:12)

When Jesus wanted to describe the Holy Spirit to him, He compared Him to the wind. When He wanted to explain the Holy Spirit to the party girl at the well, He compared Him to living water, which was a term used to describe ritual washing.

When i suggest we talk about something earthly, something easier to understand like the nature of water, you tell me no. You say the better approach is to start with something heavenly, something much harder to grasp like the nature of God Himself!

I have to ask a similar question to the one Jesus asked Old Nick: If i’m having trouble understanding earthly things, why do you think it will be easier for me to understand heavenly things?

That’s why i want to talk about water. It’s something i understand much better than God. If i can see how this idea of substance and accidents applies to earthly water, i can then, by analogy, try to apply what you teach me to the heavenly body and blood of Jesus, our Savior and God.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well thanks for the quote from Peter.

So we live outside of our ‘tent’ for a while…
But Jesus and Mary are in heaven with their bodies and there is a sense that there is a more complete reward when that does happen.

Since God is everywhere and all around us, why can’t He exist under the “tent” of the appearance of bread and wine? Do you have to see something for it to exist?

God Bless, Mary

Yes, i understand, MJ. Now, when you are talking about God being everywhere, are you talking about the Spirit of God, or the body of Jesus, or both?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why is it that some atheists are intellectually capable of conceiving of parallel universes which intersect with ours

Yet some people who claim to be christians and claim not to believe that Jesus’ physical body is in the bread and wine are not able to make that cognitive connection?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Yes, i understand, MJ. Now, when you are talking about God being everywhere, are you talking about the Spirit of God, or the body of Jesus, or both?

BOTH…both have the quality of omnipresence… because both are Divine persons and all three persns of the trinity share the same substance and I believe omnipresence is an attribute of that substance.

And I don’t try to understand it because my mind is limited.
I am a time-space person.

So, I believe in the Real Presence because so many things point to it being true, that it is an imposssibility to me that all of that evidence is fabricated and that it all is just coincidence.

To say it is untrue makes all the coincidences and all the evidence seem for naught…like a joke on us, and God wouldn’t do that. He is too loving.

And since GOD IS LOVE, I believe he is capable of doing such a self-giving act. To take that away and make it just a symbol would also seem like an empty promise. So I always will believe.

I am incapable of proving it to you though or anyone else. Some things are just a matter of surrender.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I would call it “wateri-ness”, yes. I know you may disagree, but I pose the same questions of you that I have earlier. What makes a snowball, a snowball? What makes a pen, a pen? What makes a chair, a chair? What makes God, God?

Very well, Doc, we can come back to what makes water, water. I will do my best to answer your questions:

**Q.1. What makes a snowball a snowball.**A.1. A kid looking for fun (just kidding)! I’d say that every snowball has one thing in common–molecules consisting of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. This is what makes a snowball a snowball.

**Q.2. What makes a chair a chair? **A.2. There is not enough information to answer this question. (For example, i’d need to know of what the chair of which you are speaking is made.) The best answer i could give to the vague question is that it is made of atoms.

**Q.3. What makes a pen a pen?**A.3. Same answer as (A.2).

**Q.4. What makes God, God?**A.1. I have no clue; do you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Why is it that some atheists are intellectually capable of conceiving of parallel universes which intersect with ours

Yet some people who claim to be christians and claim not to believe that Jesus’ physical body is in the bread and wine are not able to make that cognitive connection?

Fascinating, JJ! Please tell me more.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

BOTH…both have the quality of omnipresence… because both are Divine persons and all three persns of the trinity share the same substance and I believe omnipresence is an attribute of that substance.

And I don’t try to understand it because my mind is limited.
I am a time-space person.

So, I believe in the Real Presence because so many things point to it being true, that it is an imposssibility to me that all of that evidence is fabricated and that it all is just coincidence.

To say it is untrue makes all the coincidences and all the evidence seem for naught…like a joke on us, and God wouldn’t do that. He is too loving.

And since GOD IS LOVE, I believe he is capable of doing such a self-giving act. To take that away and make it just a symbol would also seem like an empty promise. So I always will believe.

I am incapable of proving it to you though or anyone else. Some things are just a matter of surrender.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

Thanks for responding, MJ! You said:

… it is an imposssibility to me that all of that evidence is fabricated and that it all is just coincidence.
​

​

Please tell me: What evidence do you have that the atoms of Jesus’ physical body and blood are everywhere present all of the time?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

different amounts of Dissolved Oxygen and Hydrogen depending on the temperature

I agree, Tea! For, if the hydrogen atoms were removed from water, it would cease to be the water we drink and become the air we breath.



So, the essence or nature of water is that it is composed of molecules of hydrogen and oxygen atoms in a ratio of two to one (or H2O). That is the physical or material existence of water.

Now, what about the metaphysical or immaterial or spiritual existence of water? Do you think the rain that falls from the sky or the water that flows through a stream has a spirit or soul?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Thanks for responding, MJ! You said:

Please tell me: What evidence do you have that the atoms of Jesus’ physical body and blood are everywhere present all of the time?

I was speaking of the evidence in all of scripture and tradition that pointed to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. it seems to me to be overwhelming.
But,
Jesus created His own body through nature. His ‘body’ existed in one sense in His Divine mind and knowledge even before it took a concrete form in time and space… in some way, it always existed before God as a Bread of Presence, and I accept by faith that God is omnipresent, but the atomic, visible structure is not always in the concrete form you are talking about.

I tend to see God as more like ‘light’ then anything else. And perhaps we will be transfigured into light by Grace… and that is just a possibility which i would not say with certainty

I am not a scientist so I can’t apply scientific formulas to come up with an explanation for you and besides i don’t think it has to fit a formula.

God Bless, maryjohnZ

Have a Holy and Blessed Holy Thursday to all…