A Tale of Two Eucharists

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Yes, i believe Jesus and the authors of the Bible taught the same, David. Do you also believe He still has a physical body today?
I believe He still has a body. It is a glorified one. I believe that His body has physical characteristics which are not completely like the body you and I have. Its characteristics are those that we will have if we perservere in the Way.
Is Jesus still, as He was at the moment He was conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 100% God and also 100% man?
No. As any human, He grew and matured. He suffered, died, was buried and was raised from the dead with a new body. And, yes He still the God-Man.
 
Thank you, Pax. 🙂

Yes, i can visualize a cross; i can also visualize an intelligent alien being from another dimension. She stands about as tall as my 10-year-old son; has smooth, cool, silvery-gray skin; has no noticeable ears or nose; and has deep, dark, sensitive eyes as big as the rear-view mirrors on my car. I can even dream about such a being. In my dream, she might take me in her space craft to different times and strange new worlds. She might tell me amazing things i’d never heard before (not with her lips but with her thoughts that i can somehow hear in my own mind). She appears real to me when i close my eyes, but when i open them she slips away.

I can do the same with a cross. The cross in my mind is no less a cross than the one upon which Jesus suffered and died for you or i, but it is less real. In fact, it is not real at all! It is just a product of my imagination.

Do you, Pax, really believe the cross you see only with your mind is the same cross upon which your Redeemer was tortured and executed?
That is a good question Soc, and it is quite clear that the cross in my mind and the cross that Jesus died upon are not the same cross. Likewise, the cross you have in your back yard is not the same cross either. None of the crosses mounted atop church steeples are the cross of Jesus either. Nevertheless, the cross that I can visualize and all of the crosses that are not the actual cross of Jesus, as well as the true cross of Jesus share the substance of a cross. None of them share the accidents or their individual origins or histories. What they have in common is the substance of what makes something a cross.
 
In Catholic belief you can say yes, the cross you visual for all purposes is the same cross Jesus died on when you are meditating. This belief is based on two things:

God exists outside of time and space and has access to past, present and furture all at once so when I meditate on any sacred mystery it is the same as accessing that time and place directly. This is applied to meditation in the Ignatian method of prayer and it is also a part of the power of praying the mysteries of the rosary. In the mass it is especially true since we have Jesus’ word that time is suspended and we are actually present at Calvary during the mass. Thus everyone has access to the Sacred moment when Jesus died for them. The Merode Altar piece is an example of Northern renaissance artwork that shows this concept. it is a tryptych and in the first panel a couple kneels in prayer holding rosaries. As they meditate a mystical door opens leading to the second panel : an Annunciation scene. The artwork teaches how Catholics conceive of meditation. Time is accessed and the people are brought into that moment when the angel appeared to Mary.

The second thing I would say this is based on ( and this is just from me) is that God has the most senstive Spirit possible. Now we know that when someone says a harsh word or looks at us with disdain it can hurt our human spirit. We have all experienced that. Now, if you are imaging the cross of Christ in your mind and in you thoughts you are telling God of your gratitude and sorrow over what he went through it will effect His Divine Spirit which is more senstive than any human spirit and in God’s eyes it is the same as if you did it for Him at the foot of the cross. As a devotee of the Holy Face I see this as wiping Christ’s Face just as Veronica did and I believe God knows my desire to actially comfor Him and it is real to Him.

In this sense the spiritual world and the physical world are always close together.

For many years people only received Holy Communion a few times a year. The Carmelites I belong to had a talk about how many times during the mass the faithful and the Carmelite nuns (1800s) were given blessed bread not consecrated bread at mass. They believed if they received the Blessed Bread with the same faith that God would be in it out of love for them as equally in a spiritually sense as if they were receiving consecrated bread, then the spiritual benefit was equally there there. This was an exercise in faith that helped them when they actually were given Consecrated Hosts.

I truly believe that a Spiritual Communion can be as equally beneficial as receiving the actualy consecrated Hosts if that is all you are able to have on a specific day…not that I am advocating skipping Communion if you can actually go…

And some people who can’t receive for some reason at mass ( Divorce for example) If they are longing and loving Jesus in the Eucharist more than those who do receive it may be receiving Jesus more in their Spiritual Communion than those who are receiving in a luke warm or unbelieving fashion.

You and I both existed in God’s mind before we were conceived and born. But God’s mind is the mind of the Creator and He has given us use of a mind to know Him and access Him. We are created in God’s image afterall.

Can human minds be focused wrongly or have false ideas…surely…

So the alien figure you are drawing could become an actual moving force for you if you took it seriously and treated it as real, but hopefully nothing like that does happen in your mind!

Science has always shown the human mind to be an amazing thing, but can any of us even conceive the all knowing, all wise nature of God and His thoughts!

Anyway, I hope I said something that made sense.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

A Holy Good Friday to everyone. Remember the hours between 12 and 3 are a special time of grace to pray, begin with Psalm 51 the penetential Psalm of David… Let us join in praying to end abortion and for the conversion of all the world.
Are you saying, then, that faith is a force and thoughts are the containers of the force?

🤷
 
I believe He still has a body. It is a glorified one. I believe that His body has physical characteristics which are not completely like the body you and I have. Its characteristics are those that we will have if we perservere in the Way.

No. As any human, He grew and matured. He suffered, died, was buried and was raised from the dead with a new body. And, yes He still the God-Man.
Do you believe, David, that Jesus’ body has atoms, as your body and mine has atoms. Or is the stuff of which His body is made something immaterial?

🤷
 
That is a good question Soc, and it is quite clear that the cross in my mind and the cross that Jesus died upon are not the same cross. Likewise, the cross you have in your back yard is not the same cross either. None of the crosses mounted atop church steeples are the cross of Jesus either. Nevertheless, the cross that I can visualize and all of the crosses that are not the actual cross of Jesus, as well as the true cross of Jesus share the substance of a cross. None of them share the accidents or their individual origins or histories. What they have in common is the substance of what makes something a cross.
What is that substance, Pax? Is it material, immaterial, or something else?

🤷

Also, it appears you disagree with Doc’s definition, for she defines substance as:

Substance is the single quality of something or someone that makes that thing or being what it is and separates it from any other thing (or being).Doc’s definition apparently asserts that no two crosses share the same substance. However, if what you say is true, then every cross everywhere (whether it be wood and used for growing a vine, or made of gems and hanging on a chain around someone’s neck as jewelry, or metallic and used as a telephone pole) shares the same substance.

Do you think i need a modified definition of substance to help me understand the substance of the Eucharist?
 
Socrates, I’m going to try to develop two concise definitions. I’ll have it posted by tomorrow morning.
Lazer:

Did i miss your definitions of substance and accidents? If you have been detained, what do you think of this definition of substance that we are currently considering?

Substance is the single quality of something or someone that makes that thing or being what it is and separates it from any other thing (or being).
 
… Regarding the second question, I restate my original argument. When Jesus makes an ambiguous statement that leads to a question and/or objection, His response gives an indication of what that original statement meant, whether it was literal or figurative, etc. His response to the Jews objection reaffirms that He was speaking literally.

God bless,
Michael
Michael:

I’d really like to discuss this further, if you will be kind enough to do so. Please let me know.

👍
 
Hey, all:

I’m going to be configuring a new gateway for my LAN, so i won’t have Internet access for awhile. Not sure how long this will take. I’ll check back in as soon as i’m able.

Thanks you much for all of your thoughtful answers. Looking forward to discussing this with all of you when i get back on line.

👍
 
What is that substance, Pax? Is it material, immaterial, or something else?

🤷

Also, it appears you disagree with Doc’s definition, for she defines substance as:

Substance is the single quality of something or someone that makes that thing or being what it is and separates it from any other thing (or being).Doc’s definition apparently asserts that no two crosses share the same substance. However, if what you say is true, then every cross everywhere (whether it be wood and used for growing a vine, or made of gems and hanging on a chain around someone’s neck as jewelry, or metallic and used as a telephone pole) shares the same substance.

Do you think i need a modified definition of substance to help me understand the substance of the Eucharist?
Well, I’m not really certain about any of this. I like the statement that we are speaking “metaphysically.” Moreover, I’m not sure that my point really contradicts the Doc’s. The idea of chairiness, boatiness, and crossiness fits with what I’m trying to say…at least I think so.

I really don’t know how deeply we can go in understanding all of this. Since we believe the Eucharist to be a miracle, we have to admit that there is going to be difficulty explaining it. Moreover, the element of mystery will always remain.

Philosophy can only go so far in providing insights and understandings. Likewise, science has its limits. When it comes to miracles the limits are reached even more quickly. I am not certain, but we may have reached the limits of just how far we can go in understanding the idea of “substance” and also “accidents.” I believe the accidents part is easier for us to grasp. We can see accidents change, but we have a more difficult time knowing that the substance changes because we have never “seen” it with our eyes or instruments.

I believe that the accidents are the observable aspects of a thing. I believe the accidents go all the way to the atomic level. Whatever we observe even at the atomic level are the accidents of a thing. Metaphysically, there is something else going on that we cannot see.

Scripture tells us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. These are the folks in heaven. Jesus is in heaven with his glorified body. We cannot observe heaven or those within it. Likewise, we cannot see the glorified body of Christ even though we are surrounded by the heavenly host including Jesus. The accidents associated with those in heaven are not visible to us.

I believe that the “substance” as changed in the Eucharist is much like heaven and its occupants. We simply are unable to see Jesus in the Eucharist; we only see the accidents of bread and wine. Likewise, we are unable to see Jesus and the heavenly host that surround us. This is the mystery that goes beyond the understandings provided by both science and philosophy.

I am pretty much at the limits of my own understanding…the rest is based on my faith in the words of Jesus in John Chapter 6, as well as the rest of scripture that points to the real presence.

I wish I could be of more help.

I’m not trying to cop out here…I simply do not know how to properly define “substance” beyond what has already been said. I am not even sure if we can explain it further. Likewise, I’m not sure that it would help if we could. The mystery and the miracle would perhaps no longer be mystery. The same holds true of the “Trinity.” We see through a glass dimly…our understanding is veiled in mystery.
 
Are you saying, then, that faith is a force and thoughts are the containers of the force?

🤷
Faith probably has an energy to it of some sort on a spiritual level;… wouldn’t know how to explain anything like that. Jesus did say faith as small as a mustrard seed could move mountains.

Mary
 
Faith probably has an energy to it of some sort on a spiritual level;… wouldn’t know how to explain anything like that. Jesus did say faith as small as a mustrard seed could move mountains.

Mary
Yes, Mary, He did say that. I was just concerned because what you were saying, that is, that anything one can imagine will become reality, sounds a lot like the Word of Faith movement in some fringe Evangelical circles.

The partisans of this movement preach that is you are broke, you should speak to your wallet or purse and say, “You are not empty! In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to be full of cash!” The proponents of this movement teach that is you have a life-threatening illness, you should not seek medical attention, you should simply believe you are not sick and what you believe will be. It is, i believe, a destructive heresy, and one (i am embarrassed to say) i once believed myself.

So, out of concern for you i asked if you believed the same, that is, that what you believe will come true, if only your faith is strong enough.
 
Well, I’m not really certain about any of this. I like the statement that we are speaking “metaphysically.” Moreover, I’m not sure that my point really contradicts the Doc’s. The idea of chairiness, boatiness, and crossiness fits with what I’m trying to say…at least I think so.

I really don’t know how deeply we can go in understanding all of this. Since we believe the Eucharist to be a miracle, we have to admit that there is going to be difficulty explaining it. Moreover, the element of mystery will always remain.
Yes, Pax, i understand that some (perhaps more than you or i imagine) spiritual truths are beyond our comprehension. I also think that some (perhaps more than you or i imagine) spiritual truths are not beyond our misconception.

My concern, here, is that we are either misunderstanding what Aristotle meant when he used the words substance and accidents, or misapplying what he meant, by using the words in ways he never intended. I also think it might possibly be a mistake to put as much stock in what Aristotle taught as we put in what Jesus, Peter, Paul and John taught in the Bible.

For example, i have a great deal of respect for Socrates’ method and opinions about some things. However, i would never follow everything he taught about morality, for he seems to have no problems with homosexuality. Rather than believe there is no sin in practicing homosexuality, i’d have to follow Paul’s advice to avoid such, as it grieves God. Socrates also taught, at the hour of his death, that it is probable that we were all animals or fish or birds at one time and have been reincarnated in human form. Again, i’d have to believe Paul, rather than the well-meaning Socrates.

Plato, of course, was Socrates’ student, and Aristotle, history tells us, was the student of Plato. Aristotle was a fallible man just as they were, and susceptible to deception or misunderstanding. It seems to me, then, that the only way to know for certain whether what Aristotle taught about the substance and accidents is true, is to do this:

  1. *]Do our homework. Study what Aristotle taught to make sure that we have a correct understanding and not in incorrect one.
    *]Ask tough questions. Put our ideas to the test to make sure we are not misunderstanding or misapplying Aristotle’s theories on substance and accidents.
    *]Ask more tough questions. Once we arrive at a correct understanding of what Aristotle meant, we put his ideas to the test to see if they really stand up to objections or are found lacking.
    *]Make comparisons. Compare what Aristotle said to what Jesus and the biblical writers said to see if anything Aristotle tells us about substance and accidents contradicts what we know is true in the Scriptures.
    Right now, i’m following step # 2, as i’m not certain we really have a correct understanding or application of Aristotle’s theory of substance. It seems to me that substance should be defined this way:

    **Substance is what a thing or living being is.**and accidents should be defined this way:

    **Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is.**We might even make the definitions more exact by saying:

    **Substance is what a thing or living being is. It is what is essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if this substance is removed or altered the thing or living being ceases to be what it is, and becomes something or someone else.**and

    **Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is. They are what is not essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if any of these accidents are removed or altered, the thing or living being still remains what it is.**One might say, then, that Michael Jackson has at least two substances: His physical body and his soul. One might reason that even though one of the accidents of Michael Jackson has changed (that being the color of his skin) he is still Michael Jackson, in soul and body. Now, if we were able to remove all water from Michael Jackson’s body, he would cease to be Michael Jackson in body, for water makes up at least 60% of his body. He would no longer be a human body, but, instead, he would be just a pile of ashes made of chemicals other than H2O.

    Removing all the water from his body by cremation or some other method would certainly cause Michael Jackson to die. One might be able to reason, then, that what used to be the body of Michael Jackson is no longer Michael Jackson, for not only does it not have the form of a human body (as it would be just a pile of ashes) it would also be separated from its soul, and no longer alive.

    Changing the color of his skin does not change who Michael Jackson is, as this is only a change of accidents and not a change of substance. Cremating his body does change who the body of Michael Jackson is, for a change of the chemical composition of his body does change the physical substance of his body, though not the spiritual substance of his soul.

    Hence, i think the definitions of substance and accidents i have proposed are closer to reality, as they do not have the weaknesses that other definitions we have considered have. Aristotle was far more intelligent than ignorant old me. I do not think that he would propose a theory that i could, with so little effort, knock down. We have constructed a scarecrow of his theory of substances. The theory i propose, i think, must be closer to the real deal.
 
Unless someone can propose more accurate definitions of the substance(s) and *accidents *of the Eucharist (and of anything or anyone else), i’d like to consider these:

Substance is what a thing or living being is. It is what is essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if this substance is removed or altered the thing or living being ceases to be what it is, and becomes something or someone else.and

Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is. They are what is not essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if any of these accidents are removed or altered, the thing or living being still remains what it is.Even if one does not agree with these premises, i think we ought to consider them. More than that, we should throw at them the kitchen sink, as it were, to see if they can survive the onslaught. If, at the end of our attack, they are still standing, we should use them as our guide to help us understand the substance(s) and the accidents of the Eucharist.

If anyone disagrees and thinks these definitions are not as close to the truth as we can possibly get, start throwing your objections at them. I will do my best to take the brunt of the attack and defend them, for they are my children. If, however, i am unable to defend them and they are found to be not offspring of their mother Truth, but illegitimate brats, i shall give them up for adoption, without an argument.

😃

Please post your replies in assent or objection to my little ones. After everyone has been given adequate time to respond, i will reply. Thank you, everyone, for helping me draw closer to the truth about the Eucharist.

 
Yes, Pax, i understand that some (perhaps more than you or i imagine) spiritual truths are beyond our comprehension. I also think that some (perhaps more than you or i imagine) spiritual truths are not beyond our misconception.

My concern, here, is that we are either misunderstanding what Aristotle meant when he used the words substance and accidents, or misapplying what he meant, by using the words in ways he never intended. I also think it might possibly be a mistake to put as much stock in what Aristotle taught as we put in what Jesus, Peter, Paul and John taught in the Bible.

For example, i have a great deal of respect for Socrates’ method and opinions about some things. However, i would never follow everything he taught about morality, for he seems to have no problems with homosexuality. Rather than believe there is no sin in practicing homosexuality, i’d have to follow Paul’s advice to avoid such, as it grieves God. Socrates also taught, at the hour of his death, that it is probable that we were all animals or fish or birds at one time and have been reincarnated in human form. Again, i’d have to believe Paul, rather than the well-meaning Socrates.

Plato, of course, was Socrates’ student, and Aristotle, history tells us, was the student of Plato. Aristotle was a fallible man just as they were, and susceptible to deception or misunderstanding. It seems to me, then, that the only way to know for certain whether what Aristotle taught about the substance and accidents is true, is to do this:

  1. *]Do our homework. Study what Aristotle taught to make sure that we have a correct understanding and not in incorrect one.
    *]Ask tough questions. Put our ideas to the test to make sure we are not misunderstanding or misapplying Aristotle’s theories on substance and accidents.
    *]Ask more tough questions. Once we arrive at a correct understanding of what Aristotle meant, we put his ideas to the test to see if they really stand up to objections or are found lacking.
    *]Make comparisons. Compare what Aristotle said to what Jesus and the biblical writers said to see if anything Aristotle tells us about substance and accidents contradicts what we know is true in the Scriptures.
    Right now, i’m following step # 2, as i’m not certain we really have a correct understanding or application of Aristotle’s theory of substance. It seems to me that substance should be defined this way:

    **Substance is what a thing or living being is.**and accidents should be defined this way:

    **Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is.**We might even make the definitions more exact by saying:

    **Substance is what a thing or living being is. It is what is essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if this substance is removed or altered the thing or living being ceases to be what it is, and becomes something or someone else.**and

    **Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is. They are what is not essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if any of these accidents are removed or altered, the thing or living being still remains what it is.**One might say, then, that Michael Jackson has at least two substances: His physical body and his soul. One might reason that even though one of the accidents of Michael Jackson has changed (that being the color of his skin) he is still Michael Jackson, in soul and body. Now, if we were able to remove all water from Michael Jackson’s body, he would cease to be Michael Jackson in body, for water makes up at least 60% of his body. He would no longer be a human body, but, instead, he would be just a pile of ashes made of chemicals other than H2O.

    Removing all the water from his body by cremation or some other method would certainly cause Michael Jackson to die. One might be able to reason, then, that what used to be the body of Michael Jackson is no longer Michael Jackson, for not only does it not have the form of a human body (as it would be just a pile of ashes) it would also be separated from its soul, and no longer alive.

    Changing the color of his skin does not change who Michael Jackson is, as this is only a change of accidents and not a change of substance. Cremating his body does change who the body of Michael Jackson is, for a change of the chemical composition of his body does change the physical substance of his body, though not the spiritual substance of his soul.

    Hence, i think the definitions of substance and accidents i have proposed are closer to reality, as they do not have the weaknesses that other definitions we have considered have. Aristotle was far more intelligent than ignorant old me. I do not think that he would propose a theory that i could, with so little effort, knock down. We have constructed a scarecrow of his theory of substances. The theory i propose, i think, must be closer to the real deal.

  1. The Michael Jackson cremation raises a thought. Since we “are all dust and to dust we shall return” what does that say of the ashes in your example? When we are resurrected we will “logically(?)” be resurrected from our own personal dust/ashes. If this is true then the ashes that are from Michael Jackson might still be considered to be Michael Jackson in some sense or another. This is one reason people get tweaked out of shape if they don’t receive the ashes of their “**own **loved one” from the crematorium for purposes of burial or whatever they intend for the final disposition of their loved one.

    Is this a problem for your definitions?
 
Yes, Mary, He did say that. I was just concerned because what you were saying, that is, that anything one can imagine will become reality, sounds a lot like the Word of Faith movement in some fringe Evangelical circles.

The partisans of this movement preach that is you are broke, you should speak to your wallet or purse and say, “You are not empty! In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to be full of cash!” The proponents of this movement teach that is you have a life-threatening illness, you should not seek medical attention, you should simply believe you are not sick and what you believe will be. It is, i believe, a destructive heresy, and one (i am embarrassed to say) i once believed myself.

So, out of concern for you i asked if you believed the same, that is, that what you believe will come true, if only your faith is strong enough.
No, that is not what I believe at all. That sounds like using faith to control God and I am talking more in terms of meditation, prayer
and the reality of spiritually being able to touch or reach God. I believe God does not give quick easy answers and faith requires trust in all situations, even those in which it appears that God has abandoned you. If everything were about magical answers then that would not be real faith to me. Faith and perseverance through trials go hand in hand.

But I do see faith as being about the reality of how close God is
to each person and that He is in every situation of our lives, even the painful, hard ones.

So you can rest at ease that what you describe is not what I am talking about. I am sorry I am so poor at conveying my thoughts.

Mary
 
Some would say it is a picture of a boat, and so it has the substance of boatiness. Others would say it is a picture of a funeral piar, or a floating coffin, used by ancient peoples (such as the Vikings) to bury their dead at sea, and so it has the substance coffininess. The reason why i used the picture is to illustrate that boatiness cannot be the substance of something, because a thing can have only one substance. However, what is boatiness to one person is coffininess to another.

Take a tree, chop it down, hack off its branches and hollow out the trunk, and you have something. What is the substance of that something? Well, if a man puts it into the water, sits in it, and pushes it away from the shore, we might say it is a canoe, so its substance is canoeiness. However, if a storm rolls in, with a torrential downpour and hail and lightning, and the man paddles frantically to shore, and turns the object upside down, and crawls under it, then we can no longer say its substance is canoeiness, for now it is a shelter. What was once canoeiness has become shelteriness. Now, let us say the man dies during the storm from an unfortunate lightning strike, and the next day someone happens along and finds him dead, under the shelter. The person gives the man a proper Viking funeral by putting his body in the shelter, filling it with combustionable material, setting it ablaze, and pushing it out into the water. It is now neither a canoe nor a shelter, but it has become a floating (and soon to be sinking) coffin, so its substance is coffininess.

The problem is that the substance of a thing is that which *never changes *as long as the thing remains what it is. In these three examples, the thing never changed, only the use to which it was put did. Therefore, it is a logical impossibility that canoeiness, or shelteriness, or coffininess are the actual substances of something. Rather than being words that describe the substance of the object in our example, the words canoeiness, and shelteriness, and coffininess are words that describe the function of something. Function, therefore, cannot be the same things as substance. Hence, we must find a different word to describe the substance of an object made of wood that floats, or provides shelter, or serves the purpose of a funeral piar. What do you think the word that describes this something might be, Distracted?
 
The Michael Jackson cremation raises a thought. Since we “are all dust and to dust we shall return” what does that say of the ashes in your example? When we are resurrected we will “logically(?)” be resurrected from our own personal dust/ashes. If this is true then the ashes that are from Michael Jackson might still be considered to be Michael Jackson in some sense or another. This is one reason people get tweaked out of shape if they don’t receive the ashes of their “**own **loved one” from the crematorium for purposes of burial or whatever they intend for the final disposition of their loved one.

Is this a problem for your definitions?
Good question, Pax! We might consider those who were at the epicenter of the nuclear explosion at Hiroshima, Japan, during World War II. There were no ashes for them, as the explosion vaporized them, likely separating all of the atoms of their bodies from each other. Their bodies simple ceased to be.
However, they did not cease to be, for i think the Bible (and perhaps the Roman Catholic church) accurately teaches that a human being has two substances–a material (or physical) body, and an immaterial (or non-physical) soul. For example, Paul compared our physical, material bodies to tents in which our souls live:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
(2 Corinthians 5)

Something of a person survives after her body dies, Paul is saying. That something, i take it, is her immaterial, non-physical soul. Therefore, unlike an inanimate boat, an animate person must have two substances to her one being, instead of one–a body made of atoms and a soul not made of atoms.

Regarding the physical bodies of those whose atoms have been vaporized, i suppose that Jesus would have the memory of the DNA of such people to recreate their bodies at the time that He resurrects all dead bodies–some to eternal judgement and some to eternal life.
 
No, that is not what I believe at all. That sounds like using faith to control God and I am talking more in terms of meditation, prayer
and the reality of spiritually being able to touch or reach God. I believe God does not give quick easy answers and faith requires trust in all situations, even those in which it appears that God has abandoned you. If everything were about magical answers then that would not be real faith to me. Faith and perseverance through trials go hand in hand.

But I do see faith as being about the reality of how close God is
to each person and that He is in every situation of our lives, even the painful, hard ones.

So you can rest at ease that what you describe is not what I am talking about. I am sorry I am so poor at conveying my thoughts.

Mary
That’s good! 🙂

It sounds like you have a good understanding that God does not answer every prayer yes, but only those that are according to what He wants for you or i:

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
(1 John 5)
 
The Michael Jackson cremation raises a thought. Since we “are all dust and to dust we shall return” what does that say of the ashes in your example? When we are resurrected we will “logically(?)” be resurrected from our own personal dust/ashes. If this is true then the ashes that are from Michael Jackson might still be considered to be Michael Jackson in some sense or another. This is one reason people get tweaked out of shape if they don’t receive the ashes of their “**own **loved one” from the crematorium for purposes of burial or whatever they intend for the final disposition of their loved one.

Is this a problem for your definitions?
**Substance is what a thing or living being is. It is what is essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if this substance is removed or altered the thing or living being ceases to be what it is, and becomes something or someone else.**and

**Accidents are the qualities of a thing or living being that is. They are what is not essential for a thing or living being to remain what it is, so that if any of these accidents are removed or altered, the thing or living being still remains what it is.**To put it simply: A human body that is burned to ashes ceases to be a living human body. It becomes something else–a non-living pile of ashes. What does this tell us about the substance of a human body? It seems to me that the loss of H2O, which makes up about 60% of a human body, must be at least part of its substance, since removing these water molecules changes the substance from that of a human body to that of a pile of ashes. Therefore, H2O cannot possibly be an accident of a human body, for accidents are those things that can be removed and yet not change the substance.

What do you think?
 
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